Posts in May 1998

To: cac@emwave.net

——————————

From: Antti Lange
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 08:16:24 +0300
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: The FKF-offer

JWongCDI wrote:
> I suspect that Antti is thinking from a
> National Religion perspective.
No, I am not.

> that if the Chinese government was given money for
> various Christian activities, they
> would allow (finance) them (prison chaplains?)
> to happen.
I am emphasizing that this is the only way to make
it to happen in China and many other countries.

> Chinese Americans, do not
> think that way, but see the
> Government as being unfriendly to
> the cause of Christ.
The human right pioneers like William Penn in USA and
James Finlayson in Finland did not submit their dreams
and hopes under such fatalism. You the Chinese American
Christians must raise your heads or you loose your
eternal calling.

> To enlist the government’s help in the work of the
> Church is foreign to our thinking.
You must change your thinking or you will always be
more or less foreign in His Kingdom.

> There is indeed, a “separation of Church and State”
> in our perspective.
Get up, girdle up your loins and forget that herasy!

> Hope this makes sense?
Well, it did only for the non-Christians and the Devil
but such an submissive attitude does it not help His
Kingdom to come.

With love in Christ,
Antti

——————————

From: Rlfong
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 01:49:22 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: The FKF-offer

There are many ways we are called to preach the gospel. Some are called to be
more aggressive than others. I think we should be tolerant so we do not cause
one another to stumble ala Romans with meat to the idols.

Ron Fong
Fremont, CA

In a message dated 4/30/98 10:15:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, lange@fkf.net
writes:

> > Joe Wong CDI : Hope this makes sense?

> Antti: Well, it did only for the non-Christians and the Devil
> but such an submissive attitude does it not help His
> Kingdom to come.

——————————

From: Gdaht
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:31:43 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: The FKF-offer

In a message dated 98-05-01 01:54:31 EDT, Rlfong@aol.com writes:

<>

Good point, Ron. Thank you.

For further reflection:

Ps. 149
4…the LORD takes delight in his people; he crowns the humble with salvation.
5 Let the saints rejoice in this honor and sing for joy on their beds.
6 May the praise of God be in their mouths and a double-edged sword in their
hands,
7 to inflict vengeance on the nations and punishment on the peoples,
8 to bind their kings with fetters, their nobles with shackles of iron,
9 to carry out the sentence written against them. This is the glory of all
his saints. Praise the LORD.

G

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 13:04:07 -0400
Subject: CAC_Mail: Fwd: Press Release – “Pray for the Children”

Dear CACers:

FYI. Since everyone seems to be into stats…does anyone
have figures on drug use among Asian-American children?

In Him,
J. Chang
– ————–

“PRAY FOR THE CHILDREN” BRINGS
ANTI-DRUG EFFORT TO EVERY
NEIGHBORHOOD, FRC SAYS

WASHINGTON, D.C. – From needles to drug certification, the
drug policy debate on Capitol Hill is in full swing. On the
heels of the Clinton Administration’s national drug strategy
announcement, House Speaker Newt Gingrich will outline his
anti-drug legislative campaign on Thursday. On another
podium, Family Research Council President Gary Bauer
testified Wednesday before a congressional committee in
support of monitoring the drug certification process as a
component of U.S. foreign policy. As national leaders roll-up
their sleeves to fight the drug war, FRC highlights how
individuals can also play a part through prayer.

“As the nation’s policymakers work on better anti-drug public
policy, it is past time for more Americans to join the drug
war for the safety of our children,” Family Research Council
Senior Advisor Robert Maginnis said Thursday. “Parents and
community leaders can fight this battle for our children by
embracing the simple idea of ‘Pray for the Children Weekend’
(October 23-25).

“The primary answer to today’s drug and violence epidemic is
not more government programs. ‘Pray for the Children’ shifts
our focus from Washington, D.C. to the immediate needs of our
youth. Although government should promote programs that help
defeat the ravages of drugs and youth violence, it cannot
replace the love and commitment of family and friends who have
the strength, support and wisdom to keep children drug-free
and safe.

“Our children are suffering tremendously from the drug
scourge, and violence has invaded their lives, robbing them
of their innocence. It’s time for adults of all faiths to
seek God’s guidance and help for America’s children.”

“Pray for the Children” weekend calls on Americans of every
faith and race to plan special prayer-focused events. “Every
American can have a positive impact on the youth drug and
violence problem. This is also an opportunity for local
businesses, the media, faith communities, schools and civic
organizations to make a commitment to keep our children
drug-free and safe,” Maginnis said.

For specific activity ideas on “Pray for the Children,” visit
http://www.prayforthechildren.com, get information from the
fax-on-demand line, 800-899-7279, or call 630-420-1766.

FOR MORE INFORMATION OR INTERVIEWS, CALL THE FRC PRESS OFFICE.

– ————————————————————–

To unsubscribe from this list, please call our order line at
1-800-225-4008. Family Research Council is located at 801 G
Street, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20001. Phone: 202-393-2100.
Fax: 202-393-2134.

– ——— End forwarded message ———-

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——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:38:27 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Fwd: Press Release – “Pray for the Children”

I don’t have figures at my fingertips, but I can get some. I volunteer
monthly at the Asian American Drup Abuse Program in South Central LA.
I’ll ask them for figures. It’s definitely a problem… one that we
often ignore in our churches, unfortunately.

ken fong

J Chang wrote:

> Dear CACers:
>
> FYI. Since everyone seems to be into stats…does anyone
> have figures on drug use among Asian-American children?
>
> In Him,
> J. Chang
> ————–
>
> “PRAY FOR THE CHILDREN” BRINGS
> ANTI-DRUG EFFORT TO EVERY
> NEIGHBORHOOD, FRC SAYS
>
> WASHINGTON, D.C. – From needles to drug certification, the
> drug policy debate on Capitol Hill is in full swing. On the
> heels of the Clinton Administration’s national drug strategy
> announcement, House Speaker Newt Gingrich will outline his
> anti-drug legislative campaign on Thursday. On another
> podium, Family Research Council President Gary Bauer
> testified Wednesday before a congressional committee in
> support of monitoring the drug certification process as a
> component of U.S. foreign policy. As national leaders roll-up
> their sleeves to fight the drug war, FRC highlights how
> individuals can also play a part through prayer.
>
> “As the nation’s policymakers work on better anti-drug public
> policy, it is past time for more Americans to join the drug
> war for the safety of our children,” Family Research Council
> Senior Advisor Robert Maginnis said Thursday. “Parents and
> community leaders can fight this battle for our children by
> embracing the simple idea of ‘Pray for the Children Weekend’
> (October 23-25).
>
> “The primary answer to today’s drug and violence epidemic is
> not more government programs. ‘Pray for the Children’ shifts
> our focus from Washington, D.C. to the immediate needs of our
> youth. Although government should promote programs that help
> defeat the ravages of drugs and youth violence, it cannot
> replace the love and commitment of family and friends who have
> the strength, support and wisdom to keep children drug-free
> and safe.
>
> “Our children are suffering tremendously from the drug
> scourge, and violence has invaded their lives, robbing them
> of their innocence. It’s time for adults of all faiths to
> seek God’s guidance and help for America’s children.”
>
> “Pray for the Children” weekend calls on Americans of every
> faith and race to plan special prayer-focused events. “Every
> American can have a positive impact on the youth drug and
> violence problem. This is also an opportunity for local
> businesses, the media, faith communities, schools and civic
> organizations to make a commitment to keep our children
> drug-free and safe,” Maginnis said.
>
> For specific activity ideas on “Pray for the Children,” visit
> http://www.prayforthechildren.com, get information from the
> fax-on-demand line, 800-899-7279, or call 630-420-1766.
>
> FOR MORE INFORMATION OR INTERVIEWS, CALL THE FRC PRESS OFFICE.
>
> ————————————————————–
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, please call our order line at
> 1-800-225-4008. Family Research Council is located at 801 G
> Street, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20001. Phone: 202-393-2100.
> Fax: 202-393-2134.
>
> ——— End forwarded message ———-
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

——————————

From: JWongCDI
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:13:56 EDT
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: The FKF-offer

Dear Antti; (Ron, etc.. I’m responding before reading all the other emails)

Thank you for your response, but I think your response confirmed what I was
trying to write. (please re-read) We have very different perspectives of the
role of the Government in the work of the Church. You do not agree with ours
(maybe I should say “mine”), and I can partially understand why.

But your conclusion that my perspective is devil inspired and doomed to
failure may be inaccurate. Perhaps God will use the efforts of both
perspectives to accomplish His will. Although I disagree with your
perspective, I have confidence in God’s sovereign grace.

Nevertheless, that is not the intent of my earlier memo. I wanted to try and
give understanding to why we don’t seem to be connecting in our numerous
memo’s, why your requests didn’t make sense to me.

Yours and His,
Joe

——————————

From: Antti Lange
Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 08:38:44 +0300
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: The FKF-offer

G wrote:
> In a message dated 98-05-01 01:54:31 EDT, Rlfong@aol.com writes:
> <>
> Good point, Ron. Thank you.
Sorry G but I am not that sure about this tolerance at all.
No true mother lion tolerates any teasing of her yangsters. The American
Chinese Church can defend her yangsters only by being aggressive like a
mother lion. USA, Canada, UK, Korea, Norway and Finland have been
aggressive in their Christian missionary fields worldwide. However, I
have seen that the families of only missionaries and other similar
Christians avoid gloriously all yangster problems like drug abuses, free
sexs, etc.

> For further reflection: Ps. 149:
> “…to bind their kings with fetters, their nobles with shackles of iron, to carry out the sentence written against them.
THIS is the glory of all his saints.”
There is no glory (sorrow only) if Sleeping Beauty (i.e. the Lion) is
tolerantly asleep.

Joe WongCDI wrote:
> I wanted to try and give understanding to why
> we don’t seem to be connecting in our numerous
> memo’s, why your requests didn’t make sense to me.
Your loving and sincere efforts are appreciated. Please let me try to
explain my perspective. I recently heard a message from a pastor from
the Messianic Church of Jerusalem: “Neither God nor the Bible
speak/teach in a non-personal (i.e. Hellenistic) manner because a
non-personal salvation rescues nobody.” Mere theological argumentation
on sanctification is vain and consequently not glorious. Its fruits are
death like that of the Tree of knowledge. It tries to infiltrate into
the Church under the many different variations of tolerance: “What did
God really say?” Nobody can build wisely without first carefully
listening and then personally DOING! Oh, it is glorious marching:
left-right-left-right-…
when the saints go in!
With love,
Antti

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 13:24:54 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: [monthly] info

FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions about CAC

Posted: 2 May 98

[This is a monthly posting; * marks What’s New]

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– —
*

——————————

From: Gdaht
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 18:28:23 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: fyi–g

http://www.oneworld.org/

http://www.oneworld.org/

The best part of this site may be the scroll bar, bottom of the front page. It
contains approx. 200 organizations/’partners’ in Third World concerns.
Disclaiming partisan interest(s) in ‘oneworld’ _per se_, I’d say it contains
some useful global stories/info from a Euro perspective, e.g.:

<>

——————————

From: TSTseng
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 22:23:57 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: fyi–g

G:

It may help to say more about “One World” (looks like a decent group to me)
because many Christians are suspicious of “one world” talk. Remember that
Christian newspaper in Colorado which featured a “One World” conspiracy
theory?

Tim

In a message dated 5/2/98 11:28:55 PM, Gdaht@aol.com wrote:

<<http://www.oneworld.org/

http://www.oneworld.org/

The best part of this site may be the scroll bar, bottom of the front page. It
contains approx. 200 organizations/’partners’ in Third World concerns.
Disclaiming partisan interest(s) in ‘oneworld’ _per se_, I’d say it contains
some useful global stories/info from a Euro perspective, e.g.:
>>

——————————

From: Antti Lange
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 18:27:23 +0300
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: The FKF-offer

Gdaht wrote:
> <>
> That’s ok, Antii. Thanks for being forthright about this.
> Please accept that I’d stand particularly (to protest) for > ‘flogging’….
I accept and keep standing for those who are really flogged and even
executed without any hope.

Sorry, if I was ‘flogging’. I do now realize that you Chinese people are
much more polite than Finns. Your culture is thousands of years older. I
was trying to make the point that certain aggressiveness is necessary in
God’s Kingdom. I am ready to accept from my loving Brothers statements
like: “Go away Satan! You do not now think of the Heavenly but Earthly
things.” There is a serious weakness in me when I do not understand that
my mind can be mislead as it happened to apostle Peter.

Anyhow, the Chinese American Christians have now lost my divine
FKF-offer because the time available for the proposed effort run out.

Thanks for the new important link to OneWorld.
With love,
Antti

——————————

From: Cindy Jackson
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 23:18:16 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: my introduction

To others on the CAC list:
I am new to the list and wanted to introduce myself. My name is Cindy
Jackson — and I’m not Asian but I am the process of adopting a little
girl from China who I will bring home, hopefully by January of 1999.

I live in Minnesota and am an editor. I am 37 years old and single.
After the death of both my mom and dad, I very much wanted to bring a
child into the love of my extended family. The family includes my five
older siblings and their spouses & many nieces and nephews. They have
been wonderful — so loving and with such open arms — to me as I went
through the adoption home study process and I know that they will be too
as the little girl comes into our lives. The paperwork for the adoption
has now cleared all the U.S. hurdles and is in Beijing.

Last night I was at a Families with Children from China potluck supper
– — the group is a very active association in Minnesota of families who
have adopted Chinese daughters. One mom had her daughter there who she
had just brought home a week ago. At 14 months, the baby was very small
– — like perhaps a 2 or 3 month old child would be under normal
circumstances.

I attend a large, multi-ethnic church in St. Paul called Woodland
Hills. It is a Baptist General Conference church. However, I have an
American Baptist church history.
Please pray for my little girl. Most of the children coming from China
to the U.S. from orphanages are about a year old when they come. This
means that my daughter is probably alive now and in one of the
orphanages. For now her name is Margaret Grace — Maggie for short. The
“Grace” is for God’s grace — which we all need all we can get.

Grace & peace to all of you on the list —

Cindy Jackson
cjackson@rnc.net

——————————

From: Gdaht
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 10:46:33 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: fyi–g

In a message dated 98-05-02 22:32:59 EDT, TSTseng@aol.com writes:

<>

Dear Tim:

What I know about the New World Order and/or conspiracy to create One World
fits in a thimble. But maybe people fear that ‘tolerance’ is a mechanism of
this type of conspiracy, I dunno. A couple other thoughts: How would ‘One
World’ be a realistic possibility in a war torn global picture like we have
today? Also, American society requires ‘tolerance’ to function; if our society
functions well with ‘tolerance’ reigning–does this suggest we are progressing
to ‘One World’ ?

I’ll resist the urge to ramble:) but say ‘welcome!’ to Cindy Jackson.

Best regards,

G

——————————

From: gccc@juno.com (Stephen N Wong)
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 14:54:49 -0700
Subject: CAC_Mail: Merc article

CACers,

I just returned from a week away and was surprised to find some very
enlightening discussion on the article in the Mercury News that included
our new church. Thanks to all for the comments and information.

I appreciate the critiques of the article, but the practical side of me
is just extremely thankful for some free publicity! The article didn’t
trash Christianity, being written more from a cultural than a religious
perspective (and Asian-Americans are a kind of protected minority in the
media, unlike evangelical Christians). We’ve had a steady stream of
people inquiring about us, probably because the front page featured a 6×9
picture of people worshiping at GC, with my wife prominently in the
center (smart move: she’s much better looking than me).

Not to say that I didn’t raise an eyebrow at the statistics cited (thanks
to Fenggang for clarification on the sources). But I’m very appreciative
of Ronnie Fong’s connections in our area that led the media to us.

BTW, the reporters’ names are Ariana E. Cha and De Tran. I was
interviewed by Ariana. She’s a 24 yr. old Korean American who’s excited
about working at the Merc because of their support of Asian Americans on
their staff. De is about 10 years Ariana’s senior and I found him very
supportive, too. He called me to ask for our info because people were
calling the Merc but Ariana was out of the office at the time.

The bottom line (from a church planter’s perspective): please pray for
efforts to reach Asian Americans with the Gospel. God can use all kinds
of means to accomplish His ends.

For the Kingdom,

Steve Wong
– ————————————————-
Grace Community Covenant Church
ph 650.961.3101 fax 650.961.3405
GCCC@juno.com

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——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 22:47:35 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: Sanctification

Yesterday, Sunday, our preacher said, ” ..the sanctification of
behaviors…” This made clear (for me) a distinction. That is, it put
into words easy for me to express this aspect of a Christian’s process of
sanctification. This process of sanctification the Christian is going
thru in this life is that of his behavior. More accurately it is the
sanctification of his “walk”, the living of this life. Our lives are to
be holy, worthy of our calling. We are admonished, exhorted to grow more
holy in our walk, behaviors, thots, attitudes, motives, etc. This is our
sanctification, the sanctification of our walk. But this process of
sanctification does not change what we are. It does not make us more
holy, Christ-like.

This is the difference, one is our walk; the other is what or who we are;
our essential being. Our essential being is a new creation, being
perfected in Christ.
To consider and teach that somehow, someway we can, we must, contribute
to our perfection, righteousness is to deny the sufficiency, adequacy of
Christ’s work on the cross. It would be arrogant, prideful to think we
can add to our perfection. It would humble the glory of God’s work in
our redemption and exalt man’s ability to contribute to his salvation.

When I say that I am holy, perfect, it is not to brag as if I had
achieved it. No, it is a gift. It is given to me. In this I will
glory! God has made me the righteousness of God in Christ! He has made
me complete, perfect in Christ! GLORY!!

Yours for His glory,

Ben

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——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 22:47:35 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: I am a Christian

Ray wrote, “To understand why you’ve now gotten the wrong slant on Bible
truth, I ask you to look again at Acts chapter two. … ”

But before I look at Acts 2, one must deal with the passages of Scripture
and their interpretations that were presented. Otherwise we will only
share our views without considering the foundations of the other views.

My previous posting said, ‘Ray, you wrote, “TILT! Paul did NOT say in
Romans 3:23 that sinners cannot do anything that is acceptable to God.
Some surely do teach this, but no inspired person does or ever did.”‘

My reply was, ‘The context of 3:23 is the sinful condition of man and
(:19) “…that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become
accountable to God.” Man has no excuse or merit to present.

What image do we get of man when 3:10-18 has such statements as, “There
is none righteous, NOT EVEN ONE, There is none who understands, There is
none who SEEKS for God, All have turned aside, Together they have BECOME
USELESS; There is NONE who DOES GOOD, There is not even ONE…. There is
NO fear of God before their eyes.”? If man is like this, what can he do
that is acceptable to God? His sinfulness is the root of all that he
does, however good it may appear to man’s eyes. There is none who does
good!! All have sinned!!’

Now Ray, Please tell me how you understand this passage. Does it differ
with mine, and if so, explain? Also is this view not consistent with
Jesus’ teaching that a rotten tree cannot produce good fruits?

If this is true then the “experience” in Acts 2 cannot be in
contradiction with the teachings of Rom. 3 or Matt. 7. Nor can the
“experience” of Cornelius contradict this truth.

You had many other interesting thots. But it may be best to deal with
one truth at a time.

Ben

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——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 22:47:34 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: NIV

Thanks for your response Bill;

I guess my “strong statements” could have offensive implications. I in
no way wish to convey that I am in the same company as the scholars
involved in the NIV’s “translation.” But one does not need to be in that
company to know that “sin nature” is not a translation of the word
“sarx”; that the best English word to translate “sarx” is “flesh.”

To say that such a freedom to interpret rather than translate offends
their purpose does not mean they are less scholarly or that they have not
labored “meticulously, rigorously, and intensely”. They could be the
best and worked the hardest, but what they did in Rom. 7; Col. 2; Gal. 5;
are clearly not the work of translating, but the interjecting of their
theological interpretation. Their scholarliness and their hard work does
not guarantee that what they did is above reproach.

I recognize some of the difficulties of translating from one language to
another language; to chose the word that best carry the idea and indeed
that may require an area of interpretation. When there are differences
of opinion in the choice I would defer to the “best” scholars’ choice.
But there are no such difficulties here. The best English equivalent to
“sarx” is “flesh.”

Bill, can you honestly say that “sarx” is best translated “sin nature”
and not “flesh?” Are you so overwhelmed by their scholarship and
sincerity that “flesh” and “sin nature” now has the same meaning in
English to you?

One other thing, this is not seeking a popularity vote on the NIV, as if
that would justify using “sin nature” for ‘sarx’.

Am I just discussing oven a small and minor issue? Making a mountain out
of a molehill? I trust not.

For His glory,

Ben

Bill wrote;

“I had a professor who worked on the translation for the NIV. He
described
to us the meticulous, rigorous, intense process of this translation as it
went through many review committees. Over a hundred distinguished
scholars
worked on the NIV (not just one as in the case of the Living Bible).
Honestly, Ben, do you feel confident enough as a scholar to have been
on that translation team?

Also, all translations from the original language requires
interpretation.
>From language to language, different way of thinking and writing
requires
contextual considerations. The NASB is considered the most “literal”
translation, yet still requires interpretation. Literal word for word is
not
necessarily the best translation anyway as words have different meanings
in their cultural context and words changes meanings over time. Besides,
there are many words in the original language that do not have an
English equivalence; the translators have to choose English words to
fit the context as they interpret the context.

bill leong

_____________________________________________________________________
You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

——————————

From: TSTseng
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 00:10:46 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NIV

Ben:

Great point! The “sarx” translation has been one of my biggest gripes about
the NIV. No translation will ever be perfect, but it seems to me that we are
better served by more “literal” translations than by efforts to flatten out
ambiguities. – Tim

– ————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com; ttseng@crds.edu
Web site: http://members.aol.com/TSTseng/index.html
– ————————————————————

In a message dated 5/5/98 5:01:00 AM, ben_mel@juno.com wrote:

<>

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:13:16 -0400
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: my introduction

Dear Cindy:

Welcome to CAC email list! Thanks for your introduction to us.
Please keep us posted on the progress of your adoption
of Maggie. God has given you a big heart to share with
the life of a little bundle of joy.

By His Grace,
J. Chang

_____________________________________________________________________
You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:11:13 -0400
Subject: CAC_Mail: The Best Investment For All Time…

Dear CACers:

FYI.

In Him,
J. Chang
– ————-
THE BEST INVESTMENT FOR ALL TIME…

Time

Imagine there is a bank that credits your account each morning
with $86,400. It carries over no balance from day to day. Every
evening it deletes whatever part of the balance you failed to use
during the day.

What would you do? Draw out every cent, of course! Each of us has
such a bank. It’s name is TIME. Every morning, it credits you with
86,400
seconds. Every night it writes off, as lost, whatever of this you have
failed
to invest to good purpose. It carries over no balance. It allows no
overdraft.

Each day it opens a new account for you. Each night it burns the
remains of the day. If you fail to use the day’s deposits, the loss is
yours.
There is no going back. There is no drawing against the “tomorrow”.

You must live in the present on today’s deposits. Invest it so as
to get from it the utmost in health, happiness and success!
The clock is running. Make the most of today.

To realize the value of ONE YEAR, ask a student who failed a class.
To realize the value of ONE MONTH, ask a mother who gave birth to a
pre-mature baby.
To realize the value of ONE WEEK, ask the editor of a weekly
newspaper.
To realize the value of ONE DAY, ask a daily wage laborer with kids
to feed.
To realize the value of ONE HOUR, ask the lovers who are waiting to
meet.
To realize the value of ONE MINUTE, ask a person who missed the
train.
To realize the value of ONE SECOND, ask a person who just avoided an
accident.
To realize the value of ONE MILLI-SECOND, ask the person who won a
silver medal in the Olympics.

Treasure every moment that you have! And treasure it more because
you shared it with someone special, special enough to spend your time.
Remember that time waits for no one.

YESTERDAY IS HISTORY,
TOMORROW IS A MYSTERY,
TODAY IS A GIFT;
THAT’S WHY IT’S CALLED THE PRESENT!

– ——— End forwarded message ———-

_____________________________________________________________________
You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

——————————

From: KG Louie
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 04:02:42 +0000
Subject: CAC_Mail: To Cindy Jackson

>For now her name is Margaret Grace — Maggie for short. The “Grace” is for
>God’s grace — which we all need all we can get.

For we are saved by “grace” (God’s Redempton At Christs’ Expense). May our
Lord bless you with your new child. Please keep us informed. Thanks and
blessing abound.

King Louie,
Grace Faith Church
NY, NY

——————————

From: Rlfong
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 02:26:31 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NIV

In a message dated 5/4/98 9:12:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, TSTseng@aol.com
writes:

> No translation will ever be perfect

************** REPLY SEPARATOR ***************
Isn’t it true that for the OT, the NIV is one of the better literal
translations? I understand many believe the NIV NT is not as good since it is
not as literal, but if you combine both OT and NT, the NIV is one of the
better overall versions; hence it’s popular use.
Ronnie Fong
Fremont, CA

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 00:07:54 -0700
Subject: CAC_Mail: Exorcism

I’m a bit surprised that no one has witness a demon possessed person
. . .at least no one else in this CAC–except possibly for Him which
at the moment seem questionable. At the risk of sounding “loony,” I’ll
share my experience, because who knowsbut that you may have an
encounter of the hellish kind.

After a Sunday message, I gave an altar for anyone who might want to
respond to my message and receive Christ. A Japanese fellow came
forward. As I prayed for him, he fell to the floor and a couple of my
members continued to pray for him as I moved on to pray for someone
else. Then one of the members came over and said, “Bill, I think he’s
possessed.” I went over and the fellow was twisting about and his
face was contorted, and making a low gutter sound. Then we
commanded the devil to come out in Jesus’ name and prayed with
urgency to God for help. The more we prayed and rebuked the demon,
the louder and louder he got . . .yelling: No! No! Zork rules! Zork
rules!
at least that was what it sounded like. And we yelled back: No!
Jesus rules! This went on for over an hour or more. He finally just
went quiet and was sleeping. To make a long story short, he got
discipled and baptized became a faithful member for many years.

I can say that I was scared and not scared at the same time! Looking
back, I think what happened was the fellow invited Jesus to come in
but someone else was in resident. Jesus had to kick out the demon
first. Mt.12:28,29

If we are active in a spiritual war (Eph.6:12) we will no doubt
encounter stuff like this, and I hope if you do run into a demon
you’ll remember my experience and find it helpful.

bill leong

Jay Ongg wrote:
>
> Hey, I’ve never encoutered any. I’m interested in hearing of your
> experiences, can you share?
>
> Thanks,
> Jay
>
> > —–Original Message—–
> > From: ohbrudder [SMTP:ohbrudder@prodigy.net]
> > Sent: Friday, April 24, 1998 10:45 PM
> > To: CAC
> > Subject: CAC_Mail: exorcism
> >
> > CACers,
> > A question occurred to me as I was watching Primetime’s Diane Sawyer’s
> > report about exorcism:
> > Have any of you encountered a demon possessed individual?
> > If you have . . .what did you do or what was done . . .cast out demon,
> > send to psychiatrist, avoid, what?
> >
> > This seem to be an almost taboo subject in the Chinese church, I
> > think.
> > Maybe the devil doesn’t mess with the Chinese.
> >
> > In over 25 years of ministry, I’ve personally encountered only 2.
> > They are times of real faith building! to say the least.
> >
> > bill leong

——————————

From: soohoo@wellsfargo.com
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 13:21:00 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NIV

Ronnie,
In my humble opinion, here is the bottom line on the NIV. The NIV uses the
principle of “dynamic equivalence” not “complete equivalence”. The NIV
translators never intended a literal word-for-word translation but rather a
thought-for-thought or idea-for-idea translation. Their main purpose was to
provide a smooth flowing, contemporary worded, easy to understand English
version at a 7th-8th grade reading level. This version would meet the needs
of the mass market of readers both here in America and abroad (hence
international).

The principle of “dynamic equivalence” necessitates in many cases (both O.T.
and N.T.) that the translator modify word order and sentence structure, and
interject a “better” wording of the original language. Often the mind of
the translator is required to offer a “better” interpretation of the text
being used in order to make the meaning clearer to the reader. An example
of this rewording in the NIV is the translation of the Greek word for
“propitiation”. Since this was deemed too much for the average reader to
comprehend, the NIV has reworked it into “atoning sacrifice”. Similarly,
“flesh” has become “sinful nature”.

Forgive my editorializing, but in my opinion the guiding assumption of
Zondervan and other recent translations is that the public is better served
by an easy-to-read modern translation which can also be mass marketed. Thus
the popularity of the NIV. Theological terms such as “propitiation” and
“flesh” are assumed to be beyond the range of today’s readers and hence
tossed aside. The trend in American Christianity, among other things, I
fear is the dumming down of doctrine and the teachings of the truths to be
discovered in God’s Word.

Your fellow servant of God’s Truth,
Chester SooHoo-Ong
———-
From: Rlfong
To: TSTseng@aol.com; Cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NIV
Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 11:26PM

************** REPLY SEPARATOR ***************
Isn’t it true that for the OT, the NIV is one of the better literal
translations?
I understand many believe the NIV NT is not as good since it is not as
literal, but if you combine both OT and NT, the NIV is one of the better
overall versions; hence it’s popular use.
Ronnie Fong
Fremont, CA

——————————

From: Tony Wong
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 17:40:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NIV

Chester:

Your example works better with “propitiation,” but not with “flesh.” If
“flesh” needs to be transinterpreted, then our society has “dumbed down”
more than we all realize!;) I’m afraid I would still have to agree with my
friend, Tim Tseng. This is in no ways ‘dissin the NIV – in fact, I like it
very much. But a rose is a rose…

Tony M. Wong, Ph.D.
University of Rochester

——————————

From: Gdaht
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 01:03:54 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: I am a Christian

Dear Ben and CAC,

I’ve become puzzled as to how the Biblical teaching of justifcation by faith
actually applies to Jennifer’s poem (below). Is the author of her poem (“When
I say I am a Christian”) 1) demon possessed; 2) unsaved; 3) ‘apart from
Christ’ ; 4) of the ‘flesh’/of a ‘sinful nature’ ; 5) unjustified,unsanctified
; 6) out of Fellowship ; 7) fruitless ; 8) crazy ; 9) ignorant ;10) a liar?
Where does the author stand?

Imagine this (this is probably testable, too): AOL (Keyword: ‘poet’) maintains
poetry bulletin boards where one could spend hours reading poetry and not
really scratch the surface:) of our culture. If ‘Jennifer’s’ poem appeared
there, I believe it would transcend superficiality, i.e. provoke positive
Spiritual responses. People would be able to see that there’s room for a
sinner in Christendom. [This is not impossible if we are simultaneously
righteous-sinners (Latin concept)]. And, The way they would see it is that the
Christian author admits to sin via a certain ‘weakness’ (Note: this is not to
suggest that sin equals, in a 1:1 sense, ‘weakness’ ; also, I am not arguing
that ‘Jennifer’s’ poem conforms to strict Biblical theology).

But, why has ‘weakness’ in this sense, but not sin _per se_ been banished from
this discussion?

Some issues at stake here, perhaps:

We haven’t heard from Jennifer lately. This is a concern, particularly
relative to the (recent) context of ‘tolerance’ (and I doubt Ron would mind if
‘tolerance’ expanded also to include for example, more of Grace’s interests in
women). Also, Antii, who defended ‘Jennifer’s’ poem, withdrew his FKF offer,
but hopefully will not withdraw completely from CAC. Also, the CAC list may be
wise to encourage authors (of poetry, prose, whatever) to stay among us. It’s
a lonely life style for them; and, perhaps we could learn a lot about sin 🙂

I raise these questions/issues with much love for CAC; am willing to be
confronted/turn from my own sins.

In Christ, G

=====

Subj: CAC_Mail: When I say… “I am a Christian”
Date: 98-03-26 19:10:42 EST
From: jlin3@unity.ncsu.edu
Sender: owner-cac@emwave.net
To: cac@emwave.net

read this poem. it reveals the weakness of the human soul even as a
christian. i think this hasn’t been articulated ewnough. when we speak of
chrisitanity and God living within us, there’s almost a certain
obligation to enhance the liberating empowerment that accompanies the
realization that one is a child of God. however, God gave us this Spirit
of Power to emblazen us with oppotunity not promise of conditions of
ready-made power-in-a-can like Popeye’s spinach.

anyways, not to undermine that readiness of soul when we feel our hearts
thrust with the magnitude of Hid greatness, but this poem i think is
brave enough to concede that we battle still within ourselves when
battling with the world.

jennifer

Dan Tan wrote:
> > From owner-rccccg@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Mar 26 14:14:28 1998
> > Message-Id:
> > Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:00:33 -0500 (EST)
> > Reply-To: tan@cs.unc.edu
> > Sender: owner-rccccg@listserv.oit.unc.edu
> > From: Dan Tan
> > To: rccccg@listserv.unc.ed

> >
> > A friend of a friend sent this to me, as part of a response to a
> > an email discussion among a group of friends about the recent tragedy in
> > Arkansas. One question raised during these emotional responses was, “What
> > more can we do as Christians? There is so much suffering all around the
> > world…”
> >
> > Here is a humbling poetic response that frames the question of “What does
> > it mean to be a Christian..
> > [message has been edited]
> > ———- Forwarded message ———-
> >
> > WHEN I SAY I AM A CHRISTIAN
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I’m not shouting “I am saved”
> > I’m whispering “I get lost!”
> > “That is why I chose this way.”
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I don’t speak of this with pride.
> > I’m confessing that I stumble
> > and need someone to be my guide.
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I’m not trying to be strong.
> > I’m professing that I’m weak
> > and pray for strength to carry on.
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I’m not bragging of success.
> > I’m admitting I have failed
> > and cannot ever pay the debt.
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I’m not claiming to be perfect,
> > my flaws are too visible
> > but God believes I’m worth it.
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I still feel the sting of pain
> > I have my share of heartaches
> > which is why I seek His name.
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I do not wish to judge.
> > I have no authority.
> > I only know I’m loved.

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 01:26:54 -0700
Subject: CAC_Mail: NIV

Hi Ben,

you wrote:
>
> I guess my “strong statements” could have offensive implications.

Offensive in that the millions who use it as the Word of God are
using an untrustworthy edition and are by implication “dumb” because
they don’t have your knowledge of “sarx”. . .in addition, their (my)
Word of God is “offensive to God.” So you say. And you made
these accusations not knowing the origin and background of the NIV.
Rather strong accusations at that.

I think you “threw out the baby with the bath water” in throwing out
the NIV. Even if you are right, I think it is intellectual arrogance
to belittle someone else’s scholarship (in this case more than a 100)
I would venture to say that whichever version you use, there are
weaknesses and problems.

> no way wish to convey that I am in the same company as the scholars
> involved in the NIV’s “translation.” But one does not need to be in that
> company to know that “sin nature” is not a translation of the word
> “sarx”; that the best English word to translate “sarx” is “flesh.”

You mean not a “literal” translation. There are plenty of “literally”
translated Bibles but the NIV aims to be more than just literal but
aims to convey an accurate understanding of what the original
authors wanted to communicate. By the way, “literal” words that
are substituted in the text are footnoted. “Literal” does not always
convey accurate understanding of the original. I applaud the NIV
scholars to help simple fellows like me understand the Word. That’s
probably because when I preach, I try not to use “fifty-cent”
theological
words to show how smart I am. I rather my audience understand me
so that some might be saved. And if I am perceived by the elite that
I am “dumbing” down the Word, that’s okay as long as I can help
someone know Christ, I’m not proud.

> To say that such a freedom to interpret rather than translate offends
> their purpose does not mean they are less scholarly or that they have not
> labored “meticulously, rigorously, and intensely”. They could be the
> best and worked the hardest, but what they did in Rom. 7; Col. 2; Gal. 5;
> are clearly not the work of translating, but the interjecting of their
> theological interpretation. Their scholarliness and their hard work does
> not guarantee that what they did is above reproach.

Which translation does not interject their theological interpretation?
And which is above reproach?

>
> I recognize some of the difficulties of translating from one language to
> another language; to chose the word that best carry the idea and indeed
> that may require an area of interpretation. When there are differences
> of opinion in the choice I would defer to the “best” scholars’ choice.
> But there are no such difficulties here. The best English equivalent to
> “sarx” is “flesh.”
>
> Bill, can you honestly say that “sarx” is best translated “sin nature”
> and not “flesh?” Are you so overwhelmed by their scholarship and
> sincerity that “flesh” and “sin nature” now has the same meaning in
> English to you?

Ben, I never gave it a thought before so maybe you did me a favor to
force me to affirm the NIV and my understanding. I went to my
“Dictionary of New Testament Theology Vol.1” edited by a professor
I had, Colin Brown. It says, “. . .the meaning of sarx varies radically
from context to context.” There’s about 12 pages of small text
concerning
“flesh”, if you want I can photocopy and send it to you (or anyone on
CAC.)
I believe that 95% of the English speaking world would have an
ambiguous or misleading understand of “flesh” even if they read the
context, even if they understand the context. Even your understanding
of “flesh” is at variant with many of the other commentators.

Remember what Stephen Leung wrote to you earlier which I agree with,
particularly the gnostic part:

“Brother Ben, while we may not BE two creatures, I believe we HAVE two
natures
for now. I believe that is your point from alluding to Ro 7 & 8. What
do you
think about the NIV’s translation of “sarx” as sinful nature? I know
the more
literal translations simply render it as flesh. But, I think that leads
to
your conclusion that it is our physical bodies to blame for our
sinning. Not
that I totally disagree with your deprecation of our unredeemed bodies.
But,
I think this could potentially lead to notions similar to gnosticism –
if the
physical body is what’s WRONG, then could a sinless God really reside in
a
body of flesh? I also believe that passages like Ro 8.12, Ro 13.14, 1
Co 5.5,
Ga 5.16-26, 1Cl 2.9-14 speak to the already-not-yet death of the old
“sinful
nature.” Only one nature correctly belongs with the one new creature.”

So I applaud the NIV’s use of “sinful nature”. Read in context it is to
simple
little me a big help in understand the passage. . .esp. Ro.8. without
digging
out all my dictionaries and commentaries. . .and get the same
understanding.

I was thinking, if one of my students read “flesh” say in Ro.8 re. the
dichotomy of the flesh versus the Spirit, could it be possible to think
that
eating instead of praying would lead to death? Get my point?

>
> Am I just discussing oven a small and minor issue? Making a mountain out
> of a molehill? I trust not.

I was going to just let it past as a molehill, but there’s been other
hints of
repudiation of the NIV. I love my NIV for the way it helps me to
understand
my God better . . .It speaks to even “dumb” me and causes me to trust
God
more. It really feels more like a love letter from God. Other versions
like
KJV and the NASB are too “high-sounding” for me, using words and styles
that are not common to the common folk. I don’t think the Bible have to
sound “holy” and “mysterious” to give it credence, tho’ there is
probably
a place for such in some circles. All the credence I need is that it
helps me
to know God and His ways and if I live by it I will have life.

bill leong

>
> For His glory,
>
> Ben
>
> Bill wrote;
>
> “I had a professor who worked on the translation for the NIV. He
> described
> to us the meticulous, rigorous, intense process of this translation as it
> went through many review committees. Over a hundred distinguished
> scholars
> worked on the NIV (not just one as in the case of the Living Bible).
> Honestly, Ben, do you feel confident enough as a scholar to have been
> on that translation team?
>
> Also, all translations from the original language requires
> interpretation.
> >From language to language, different way of thinking and writing
> requires
> contextual considerations. The NASB is considered the most “literal”
> translation, yet still requires interpretation. Literal word for word is
> not
> necessarily the best translation anyway as words have different meanings
> in their cultural context and words changes meanings over time. Besides,
> there are many words in the original language that do not have an
> English equivalence; the translators have to choose English words to
> fit the context as they interpret the context.
>
> bill leong

——————————

From: SKYLeung
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 13:15:27 EDT
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: I am a Christian

Brother G and CAC,

Thanks for sort of bringing us back to the original subject. However, I don’t
think that means we should table our discussion of sanctification. I think we
should sharpen our Bibically based understanding of salvation.

I think you’re right in pointing out the need to remember our weaknesses. To
deny it would be to become unrealistic – probably so esoteric that the Lost
can’t likely identify with us. This isn’t to say that we don’t also recognize
the glory of our essence which has been regenerated by God. Am I reading your
correctly?

Anyway, another thought: in the beattitudes of the sermon on the mount (Mt
5), are the heart attitudes true of Kingdom people before or after they become
Kingdom people, or both? More particularly, are those that are poor in spirit
and those that hunger and thirst for righteousness only so before throwing
themselves at the mercy of God, or are they like that after becoming Kingdom
people as well? [And, subsequently, is the blessing enjoyed by these people,
initiated and perpetuated by a singular culmination of such heart attititudes
that led them to call upon the Lord, or is it refreshed and augmented by
continued realization of these attitudes?]

Another comment on “sarx.” I looked up the definition in Strongs. It
certainly is multi-faceted. ( Bob Jones University provides it as part of
their “Linked Word Project” at the following URL:
http://www.bju.edu/bible/g/4550.html#4561 .) One of the definitions – granted
lower on the list – denotes “human nature.” Is that close to “sinful nature?”

Blessings,
Stephen Leung

——————————

From: SKYLeung
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 13:36:30 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Merc article

Brothers Steve, Fengang, and others,

Thinking about the article’s numbers again, do you think Ariana Cha and De
Tran were less likely question their numbers because of their ethnicities?
What I mean is this. With so many in Korean culture professing or practicing
Christianity as part of their cultural fabric, would a “high” number appear
less glaring? And, for those from Vietnam, where once upon a time Catholics
were no small number, would a substantial percentage of Catholics/Christians
seem possible?

I’m not saying this makes the numbers right. I’m just wondering if this, in
part, would lead to the writers’ readiness in including them.

Regardless, the article is encouraging in showing us what’s happening and
what’s possible. I certainly don’t read it as meaning there is no field to
reach.

Peace,
Stephen Leung

——————————

From: Gdaht
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 17:29:50 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: I am a Christian

In a message dated 98-05-07 13:22:20 EDT, Stephen writes:

<>

Stephen, Yes. I’m not un-esoteric, though. CFH Henry speaking at Denver Sem,
made the point by saying.unsaved people are like ships far from port. Our job
is not only to point out the harbor, but to enable them to dock, even to
assist with ‘docking maneuvers’ (involving some openness about
sin/weakness).

<>

I’d say ‘both’ while remembering the efforts to quench my ‘thirst’ with
‘saltwater’. But I bet God knew you’d ask tihs question:-) I was reading about
the woman at the well today. When she left Jesus to hurry back into town, it’s
interesting; she left her water pot at the well like she totally forgot about
it 🙂

Blessings, G

——————————

From: soohoo@wellsfargo.com
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 14:29:00 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NIV

Tony,
Thanks for your observation. I agree that if we can’t understand the
meaning of “flesh” and have to call it “sinful nature” then we have really
“dumbed down”! Actually “flesh” in the Bible has always made sense to me.
Years ago as a young Christian, I recall the warning that the three enemies
of the Christian were the world, the flesh, and the devil. As a stark
contrast, yesterday I looked up Rom 7 and Gal 5 in the NIV and found “sinful
nature” instead of “flesh”. Truly this was a strange reading experience
being confounded when “sinful nature” replaced “flesh”. What was once
familiar and understood was now awkward.

Another example of the NIV reinterpreting Scripture is the Greek word
“monogenes” or “only begotten”, which is always used in reference to Jesus
Christ as the only begotten Son of the Father. His eternal position of
Sonship as the second person of the Trinity has been taught as Gospel for
almost 2000 years. However, the NIV deems this terminology archaic and
renders it “one and only”. Since even children can understand this, the NIV
would have us a generation of “children” spiritually, who have never plumbed
the depths of the riches of the knowledge of God as the writer of Rom 11:33
would have us. Is this another example of “dumbing down” or are we on the
way down the slippery slope? But then is a rose still a rose…?

Chester SooHoo-Ong
San Francisco
———-
From: Tony Wong
To: soohoo@WellsFargo.COM
Cc: cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NIV
Date: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 2:40PM

Chester:

Your example works better with “propitiation,” but not with “flesh.” If
“flesh” needs to be transinterpreted, then our society has “dumbed down”
more than we all realize!;) I’m afraid I would still have to agree with my
friend, Tim Tseng. This is in no ways ‘dissin the NIV – in fact, I like it
very much. But a rose is a rose…

Tony M. Wong, Ph.D.
University of Rochester

——————————

From: drwong1@juno.com (Richard L Wong)
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 01:36:25 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: NIV or KJV

Just wanted to say one thing in defense of the KJV:

“If Olde English was good enough for Jesus Christ and his disciples to
speak, it’s good enough for me!”

Richard

_____________________________________________________________________
You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

——————————

From: “Rev. L. Dowell”
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 08:54:27 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: Re: CAC_Mail: NIV or KJV] [my mistake==/ld]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

– ————–1D7109C4A28
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Please note that my sentence in this post contained incorrect wording.
It follows, with the corrected version. Thanks.

Incorrect version reads:
“He _is_; but what I was able to surmise
from the discord at this time is that He _wasn’t_.”

Corrected version reads:
“He _is_; but from what I was able to surmise from the _discourse_ at
this time is that He _wasn’t_.”
[a big difference in the meaning that the first version. I recognize the
thread has been any thing but “discord.” Sorry.]

Until then,
revldowell-clergywomen@erols.com

– ————–1D7109C4A28
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Received: from mx03.erols.com (mx03.erols.com [207.172.3.243])
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for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 02:28:19 -0400 (EDT)
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Fri, 8 May 1998 02:28:16 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID:
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 02:30:09 -0400
From: “Rev. L. Dowell”
Reply-To: revldowell-clergywomen@erols.com
Organization: Firebrands~~Christian ClergyWomen ONline!!
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Richard L Wong
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NIV or KJV
References:
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Richard L Wong wrote:
>
> Just wanted to say one thing in defense of the KJV:
>
> “If Olde English was good enough for Jesus Christ and his disciples to
> speak, it’s good enough for me!”
>
> Richard
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

=============/ld
Risking it all to jump in this thread to say I am in agreement. I have
been watching this thread evolve to the point of contemplating signing
off. Here is why. My spirit did not hear the voice of The Holy Spirit in
the exchange. Did I miss Him? He _is_; but what I was able to surmise
from the discord at this time is that He _wasn’t_. This next comment is
not intended for any one person at all, but it just occurred to me (in
my spirit) that it is possible for theologians and philosophers and
Christian apologists to dig so deep they could end up in hell and take a
whole lot of people with them.

Has anybody noticed how quickly the “Revelation” days are upon us? How
do you feel about having your thumbprint taken by your bank as a form of
identification before they will release your own funds? How does it feel
to see so many “mega-mergers” taking place? What do you think of the
government’s course (overall) of continuing to move towards suppressing
the Christian witness in the world via unjust judges, etc.?
Preachers/Pastors may not have every other word, but when The Lord says
so, there is there a word from the Lord? Who among us could stay up on
the mountaintop and never get down to the valley? That one [fill in the
blanks by God’s Spirit]. CAC is a strong list. That’s for sure. God
bless.

Until then,
God’s continued peace and power,
Rev. L. Dowell
revldowell-clergywomen@erols.com
http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/7222
http://www.erols.com/revldowell-clergywomen/

– ————–1D7109C4A28–

——————————

From: “Rev. L. Dowell”
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 08:55:03 -0400
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NIV or KJV

Rev. L. Dowell wrote:
>
> Richard L Wong wrote:
> >
> > Just wanted to say one thing in defense of the KJV:
> >
> > “If Olde English was good enough for Jesus Christ and his disciples to
> > speak, it’s good enough for me!”
> >
> > Richard
> >
> > _____________________________________________________________________
> > You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
> =============/ld
> Risking it all to jump in this thread to say I am in agreement. I have
> been watching this thread evolve to the point of contemplating signing
> off. Here is why. My spirit did not hear the voice of The Holy Spirit in the exchange. Did I miss Him? He _is_; but what I was able to surmise
> from the discord at this time is that He _wasn’t_. This next comment is not intended for any one person at all, but it just occurred to me (in my spirit) that it is possible for theologians and philosophers and
> Christian apologists to dig so deep they could end up in hell and take a whole lot of people with them.
>
> Has anybody noticed how quickly the “Revelation” days are upon us? How
> do you feel about having your thumbprint taken by your bank as a form of identification before they will release your own funds? How does it feel to see so many “mega-mergers” taking place? What do you think of the government’s course (overall) of continuing to move towards suppressing the Christian witness in the world via unjust judges, etc.?
> Preachers/Pastors may not have every other word, but when The Lord says so, there is there a word from the Lord? Who among us could stay up on the mountaintop and never get down to the valley? That one [fill in the blanks by God’s Spirit]. CAC is a strong list. That’s for sure. God
> bless.
>
> Until then,
> God’s continued peace and power,
> Rev. L. Dowell
> revldowell-clergywomen@erols.com
> http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/7222
> http://www.erols.com/revldowell-clergywomen/

——————————

From: Der-Sheen Hannah Tang
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 10:05:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CAC_Mail: Keynotes summer project

Greetings to everyone here! This is my first time sending anything…to
begin with, i just want to let everyone know that I learn so much from so
many of the issues that are brought up in here…let’s keep building each
other up in the name of the Lord!

Just a brief intro – My name is Hannah Tang, i’m a sophomore piano
performance major here at the University of Houston. I go to West Houston
Chinese Church – it’s a non-denominational church and I help out with the
music ministry and the middle school LIFE fellowship there. This past
year, God had me really thinking about what I wanted to do with my life.
(the pressure was on from having to decided before the end of sophomore
year…) And i thought, well, i don’t want to perform all my life and
have people say – oh, she was a good pianist. Then it hit me…it’s
not what I want to do with my life – it’s what God wants to do with my
life
and whether or not i will open up and let Him work through me. So, after
much prayer and questions with ministry workers, here I am as a Bachelor
of Arts in piano – no longer performance. I feel like God has a greater
spectrum of things for me to do instead of perform….and i have the
assurance of God’s hand supporting me!

Anyways, the purpose of this whole thing was…i’m going on project with
Keynote Communications – the music branch of Campus Crusade for Christ –
this summer. God has given me the awesome opportunity to be trained in
music ministry for the first three weeks, rehearse the next, and travel
and perform in a band called FLASHBACK for the last three weeks. It’s a
retro band, so we’ll be performing some “older” type music. During the
performance, there will also be times for prayer and invitation/altar
calls. We will be traveling mostly along the east coast – Penn, NY, NJ,
etc., and also in the areas around IL and Indy. So, if your church is
interested in booking us, please pray over it and respond to me at :
cookiemonster@www.music.uh.edu

Colossians 3:23 states: “Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart,
as working for the Lord, not for men.” Music isn’t just for piano
recitals and concerts, but rather for the glorification of our Lord Jesus.
As a musician, I believe that this gift comes from our Father above, and I
want to be a part of His ultimate plan, though i may be one little person.

Agape,
Hannah Tang

THE COOKIE MONSTER
.—. .—.
: : o :
_..-: o : :-.._
.-” ‘ `—‘ `—‘ ” “-
.’ ” ‘ ” . ” . ‘ ” `
: ‘.—.,,.,…,.,.,.,..—. ‘ ;
`. ” `. .’ ” .’
`. ‘`. .’ ‘ .’
`. `-._ _.-‘ ” .’ – – –
. ‘ .’ .’ o `.
.’`-._’ ” . ” _.-‘`. : o :
.’ “`–…..–”’ ‘ `:_ o :
.’ ” ‘ ” ” ; `.;”;”;”;
; ‘ ” ‘ . ; .’ ; ; ;
; ‘ ‘ ‘ ” .’ .-‘
‘ ” ” ‘ ” ” _.-‘

——————————

From: jlin3@unity.ncsu.edu
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 11:19:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CAC_Mail: tinder

hey ya’ll!
something interesting:

Glen Tinder writes a provocative essay on the necessity of religion for
democractic prosperity: “can we be good without God?”. provocative not from
the Christian’s standpoint, but because it
appears in Atlantic Monthly (Dec 1989) to a prevalently
atheistic audience. beautiful examination of the complex interface of
individual consciousness (as upheld by the Christian faith) in relation
to the subtext of the collective identity that undergirds (and
necessitates) political welfare. using Christian principles (this ain’t
your usual ecumenical apology by any means) he deconstructs the exalted
self under the popular interpretations of freedom and equality.

hope to have peaked potential pools of interest. found it amazing that it
was located in a secular magazine serving popular consumption (though
much more conservative than its counterpart Harper’s). check it out if
ya’ll have the time.

=jennifer

——————————

From: Him Djuhana
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 16:29:14 -0700
Subject: CAC_Mail: U.S. SWN Asian Task Force on May 14-15, 1998

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

– ——=_NextPart_000_0166_01BD7A9E.709CFD40
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charset=”iso-8859-1″
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Dear friends,

Greetings in Jesus=92 name!

This is just a reminder that the U.S. SWN Asian Task Force Conference is =
less than a week away ! The conference will take place on May 14-15, =
1998 starting at 9:00 am and ends at 9:00 pm daily at the facilities of =
Church On The Way in Van Nuys, California (Pastor Jack Hayford=92s =
church).

This Asian Task Force (ATF) operates under the U.S. Spiritual Warfare =
Network (Cindy Jacobs is the Coordinator). The coordinator of ATF itself =
is Rev. Paul Tan, the Senior Pastor of IFGF churches in the greater Los =
Angeles area.

Our speakers for this conference includes Cindy Jacobs, John Dawson =
(author of “Healing America=92s Wounds”), Rev. Dennis Balcombe (he =
ministers to the Chinese in Hong Kong and also the underground churches =
in China), Rev. Ken Fong (Pastor of Evergreen Baptist Church), Rev. =
Siang-Yang Tan (Senior Pastor of First Evangelical Church in Glendale =
and a professor at Fuller Seminary), Doug Stringer (Founder and =
President of Turning Point Ministries International and Somebody Cares =
America!), Rev. Paul Tan (ATF Coordinator) and others.

If you have a burden to minister to Asians, both here in North America =
or in the Asian home countries, you don=92t want to miss this =
conference!=20

It is not too late to register: the regular registration fee is =
$75/person =96 which includes boxed lunch and dinners for both days. We =
do ask that you call ahead to register, because we need to make sure =
that we have the correct amount of meals to prepare. Please contact us =
at the following to register for the conference or if you have any =
questions:

U.S. SWN Asian Task Force
Toll-free (for U.S. only): 888-SWN-2ATF or 888-796-2283, ext.175
Phone: 909-482-4466, ext. 175=20
– – if you have questions, dial ext.104 (Him Djuhana) or ext.111 (Tessa =
Mohede)=20
Fax: 909-482-4464=20
E-mail: atf@ifgf.org
735 South Mills Avenue, Claremont, CA 91711, USA=20
Looking forward to see you there!

In His service,

U.S. SWN Asian Task Force

– ——=_NextPart_000_0166_01BD7A9E.709CFD40
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=”iso-8859-1″
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




Dear friends,


Greetings in Jesus’ name!


This is just a reminder that the U.S. SWN Asian Task Force Conference =
is less=20
than a week away !  The conference will take place on May 14-15, =
1998=20
starting at 9:00 am and ends at 9:00 pm daily at the facilities of =
Church On The=20
Way in Van Nuys, California (Pastor Jack Hayford’s church).


This Asian Task Force (ATF) operates under the U.S. Spiritual Warfare =
Network=20
(Cindy Jacobs is the Coordinator). The coordinator of ATF itself is Rev. =
Paul=20
Tan, the Senior Pastor of IFGF churches in the greater Los Angeles =
area.


Our speakers for this conference includes Cindy Jacobs, John Dawson =
(author=20
of "Healing America’s Wounds"), Rev. Dennis Balcombe (he =

ministers to the Chinese in Hong Kong and also the underground churches =
in=20
China), Rev. Ken Fong (Pastor of Evergreen Baptist Church), Rev. =
Siang-Yang Tan=20
(Senior Pastor of First Evangelical Church in Glendale and a professor =
at Fuller=20
Seminary), Doug Stringer (Founder and President of Turning Point =
Ministries=20
International and Somebody Cares America!), Rev. Paul Tan (ATF =
Coordinator) and=20
others.


If you have a burden to minister to Asians, both here in North =
America or in=20
the Asian home countries, you don’t want to miss this conference! =


It is not too late to register: the regular registration fee is =
$75/person=20
– which includes boxed lunch and dinners for both days.  We =
do ask=20
that you call ahead to register, because we need to make sure that we =
have the=20
correct amount of meals to prepare.  Please contact us at the =
following to=20
register for the conference or if you have any questions:


U.S. SWN Asian Task Force

Toll-free (for U.S. only): =
888-SWN-2ATF=20
or 888-796-2283, ext.175

Phone: 909-482-4466, ext. =
175
 

– if you have questions, dial ext.104 (Him =
Djuhana) or=20
ext.111 (Tessa Mohede)
 

Fax: 909-482-4464 

E-mail: atf@ifgf.org

735 South Mills Avenue, Claremont, CA 91711,=20
USA
 

Looking forward to see you there!


In His service,


U.S. SWN Asian Task Force

– ——=_NextPart_000_0166_01BD7A9E.709CFD40–

——————————

From: Gdaht
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 10:46:34 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Merc Article AND I am a Christian

In a message dated 98-04-30 13:45:46 EDT, Stephen writes:

<>

Brother Stephen, did you realize that you closed with the perfect thot for
rambling 🙂 , the ‘grace shown to sinners by God’ ? What an honor this is
for all of us, that We all, through the Holy Spirit, (may) share the ministry
of Jesus himself! We even have the privilege to speak of and for Him to
people, to suffer with and for Him with others, to work for and with Him in
the World, to die with and rise with Him, to Love Him who reigns over the
Universe, forever…

G

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:32:19 -0400
Subject: CAC_Mail: Freedom from Religious Persecution ( H.R. 2431)

Dear CACers:

FYI. Please contact your Congressmen (1-800-504-0031)
on this vital bill to help fight religious persecution around the world.
Anyone interested in getting a more detailed analysis of this bill
can email me privately.

In Him,
J. Chang
– ————–
UNDERSTANDING H.R. 2431:
THE FREEDOM FROM RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION ACT

The Freedom from Religious Persecution Act (H.R. 2431)
is the product of the desire of many religious leaders and members
of Congress to help persecuted believers around the world. At
present, more than 200 million Christians are living under the
threat of persecution. Rep. Frank Wolf (R-Va.) introduced the
measure as a first step in curbing this widespread and systematic
oppression. These following facts should clarify the intent and
implications of H.R. 2431.

What is the Freedom from Religious Persecution Act and who sponsors it?

The Freedom from Religious Persecution Act (H.R. 2431) creates an
office within the State Department to monitor international religious
persecution. If a foreign government is found to be actively or
passively
oppressing people of faith, the State Department office would report this
to the Secretary of State, who could recommend sanctions against the
offending government. The possible sanctions may not include
humanitarian aid but would withdraw such taxpayer subsidies as
foreign aid. The House bill is a bipartisan initiative sponsored
by Rep. Frank Wolf (R-Va.) and co-sponsored by more than 90 other
concerned members of Congress.

Does the bill expand the scope of federal government?

Although the legislation modestly increases personnel in the State
Department, it does not expand the scope of the federal government.
Current law provides the executive branch with foreign policy options
and guidelines. Congress now appropriates foreign aid money and
allows the executive branch broad latitude and discretion on how
to spend it. This legislation withholds certain kinds of foreign
assistance from foreign governments that persecute people of faith.
It is a clear assertion of congressional authority. Accordingly,
the administration opposes this bill because the White House views
it as congressional usurpation of executive prerogative.

Will H.R. 2431 give more power to the United Nations (U.N.)?

This bill affirms U.S. authority over its own foreign policy and action.
There is no authority ceded to the U.N. The “Findings” section,
which is the non-binding, informative part of the bill, is the
only place that U.N. documents are mentioned. This section documents
the facts surrounding global religious persecution and why the
bill is necessary. Both the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
and the U.N. Covenant on Civil and Political Rights are quoted
as “findings” in order to show that the right to freedom
of religion is a principle not only long cherished by the United States,
but also recognized by other nations. This also refutes the “Western
imperialism” argument that erroneously asserts that speaking
out against religious persecution is forcing countries to live
by U.S. cultural norms.

Will the bill lead to religious monitoring of groups and individuals in
the
United States?

The Director of the Office of Religious Persecution Monitoring, located
in
the State Department, will not have any domestic authority. Rather, his
focus will be entirely on persecution against religious believers
in other countries. The bill seeks to protect religious
groups, rather than harass them. This legislation dedicates a
State Department Office to focus on global religious persecution,
which currently is overlooked.

Could this bill be interpreted to define “persecution” in a way that
includes
disapproval of homosexuality?

The bill defines persecution as “widespread and ongoing persecution of
persons because of their membership in or affiliation with a religion or
religious denomination, whether officially recognized or otherwise, when
such persecution includes abduction, enslavement, killing, imprisonment,
forced mass resettlement, rape, or crucifixion or other forms of
torture.”
The State Department Office would monitor ongoing acts of torture in
foreign
countries, not beliefs or thoughts.

What would be the consequences for foreign governments that persecute
people of faith?

The State Department may categorize offending foreign governments as
Category 1 (government is actively persecuting) or Category 2 (government
is allowing severe persecution) countries. The penalty for Category 1 or
2
countries is targeted sanctions. The sanctions outlined in the bill are
modest. Under this legislation, Congress authorizes the elimination
of taxpayer subsidies to violating countries in the form of
non-humanitarian
aid. The bill allows for continued humanitarian relief to any country in
distress.

Does the bill provide assistance to persecuted people in Category 1 or
Category 2 countries?

Yes. The bill clarifies the asylum process for those seeking relief from
a
Category 1 or 2 country. These people will benefit from a fair and more
expeditious
asylum and refugee process.

Why should the U.S. government act on behalf of persecuted people of
faith around the world?

Throughout American history, our foreign policy has been at its best when
it was aligned with morality and principles. This bill would anchor our
relations
with foreign countries in the firm beliefs that “All men are created
equal [and] …
are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights …
[and] among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness…”

The Freedom from Religious Persecution Act constitutes
a modest step to alleviate the oppression of Christians and other
religious groups worldwide. It is noble and worthy for Congress
to put American foreign policy on the side of those struggling
under oppressive governments and to refuse to subsidize any regime
that participates in this persecution.

(Source: Family Research Council’s web page)

– ——— End forwarded message ———-

_____________________________________________________________________
You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

——————————

From: Pira P Tritasavit
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 14:46:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CAC_Mail: Touched By An Angel

This might be of interest to CACers –

– ————————-

This Sunday on Touched By An Angel …

“The Spirit of Liberty Moon”
Sunday, May 17
9:00PM ET/PT
CBS stations nationwide

The fourth-season finale is a poignant story about human rights and love.
An American executive (Adrian Pasdar) travels to Beijing accompanied by
Monica, who poses as a consultant, and Jean (Bai Ling), a dissident
Chinese national who serves as translator. Jean knows she’s risking her
life by returning home, but it’s a risk she’s willing to take in order to
learn the fate of her husband and child, whom she was forced to leave
behind following the chaos in Tiananmen Square.

– ———————–Carpe Diem!——————-

Seize the Day….because tomorrow might be too late

– —————————————————–

——————————

From: Pira P Tritasavit
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 14:53:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CAC_Mail: Touched By An Angel

In some cities, Touched By an Angel might start at 8pm (not 9pm as
listed). As always, check local listings.

– ———————–Carpe Diem!——————-

Seize the Day….because tomorrow might be too late

– —————————————————–

– ———- Forwarded message ———-
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 14:46:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Pira P Tritasavit
To: cac@emwave.net
Subject: Touched By An Angel

This might be of interest to CACers –

– ————————-

This Sunday on Touched By An Angel …

“The Spirit of Liberty Moon”
Sunday, May 17
9:00PM ET/PT
CBS stations nationwide

The fourth-season finale is a poignant story about human rights and love.
An American executive (Adrian Pasdar) travels to Beijing accompanied by
Monica, who poses as a consultant, and Jean (Bai Ling), a dissident
Chinese national who serves as translator. Jean knows she’s risking her
life by returning home, but it’s a risk she’s willing to take in order to
learn the fate of her husband and child, whom she was forced to leave
behind following the chaos in Tiananmen Square.

– ———————–Carpe Diem!——————-

Seize the Day….because tomorrow might be too late

– —————————————————–

——————————

From: Gdaht
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:53:30 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: Travel Light

Went I to ask my neighbor a request on Mothers’ Day
for somethin I might borrow now, then later would repay
He was well within his fences on his private property
He didn’t wanna bother, let his dog rip into me

refrain:
Know right where I belong now, not too many really care
Society is for the rich, the poor are everywhere
The middle class is shrinkin’ down like triage overnight
The truth come down upon me in the dark is: travel light

Though the wounds are not that great within the dissipated fear
and blood will dry upon the cuts, the pain will disappear,
the neighborhood will never know and I could never write
the loneliness come over me imbedded in the bite

Know right where I belong now, not too many really care
Society is for the rich, the poor are everywhere
The middle class is shrinkin’ down like triage overnight
The truth come down upon me in the dark is: travel light

The loyal dog so comfr’table, th’ master’s ground he stood
Keep for rippin up my hand was meat mixed in his food
While half the world is starvin’ that bad dog is satisfied
I’ll go wounded all alone to God I travel light

Know right where I belong now, not too many really care
Society is for the rich, the poor are everywhere
The middle class is shrinkin’ down like triage overnight
The truth come down upon me in the dark is: travel light

The police, they think my neighbor and his dog are justified
I guess it could be true because in ownership is pride
Possession is the issue where nine tenths of it is law
but if you don’t own anything, then all you got is God

Know right where I belong now, not too many really care
Society is for the rich, the poor are everywhere
The middle class is shrinkin’ down like triage overnight
God’s truth come down upon me in the dark is: travel light

c. 1998 go

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:04:14 -0400
Subject: CAC_Mail: “NFL Star Sacked For Christian Views”

Dear CACers:

FYI. Believers continue to be discriminated against because
of their Christian views in this politically-correct climate.

Could one of us be next? A Christian evangelism group barred from
renting a public facilitiy solely on the basis of its gospel message
while other organizations have unfettered access? A local church
sued for discrimination for refusing to hire an outspoken homosexual
activist? A pastor held liable for perpetuating “hate-crimes”
by preaching the truth of God’s view on sexual sin? A Christian
employee fired from his job because of his Christian beliefs?
Such situations are not as far-fetched as one might think.

It’s also quite revealing that there’s a tremendous fear of the
homosexual activists’ accountability but not so of Christians.
Is the Church losing its “saltiness?”

In Him,
J. Chang
– ————-
AFA ACTION ALERT 5/2/98

NFL STAR SACKED FOR CHRISTIAN VIEWS

Reggie White has been a Pro Bowl defensive end for 12 out of his 13-year
professional
football career with the Philadelphia Eagles and Green Bay Packers. He is
probably a
shoo-in as a future NFL Hall-of-Famer. He is an ordained minister and
pastor. He also
had a job offer withdrawn by the CBS network because of Christian views
on
homosexuality.

In the mind of a politically-correct culture, none of Reggie White
credentials could
excuse what he said when he addressed the Wisconsin State Assembly in
March. Using some
rather benign racial stereotypes, White said all races and ethnic groups
have gifts
that can benefit society, and then he issued a call for racial harmony.
Along with
this, however, White also added a big no-no: he called homosexuality “one
of the
biggest sins” in the Bible.

“Homosexuality is a decision. It’s not a race,” he said, adding, “People
from all
different ethnic backgrounds live in this lifestyle. But people from all
different
ethnic backgrounds are also liars, and cheaters, and malicious, and back
stabbers.”

The reaction was quick and venomous. Newspaper headlines excoriated him,
and White was
roundly and routinely denounced by fans, Wisconsin legislators and
homosexual
activists.

But White told 20/20 that he was not backing down from his statements
about
homosexuality. “I am going to speak the truth… If people think that’s
contradiction
and that’s hate, they need to take them up with God, not with Reggie
White,” he said.

Speaking the truth has cost White, however. Although NIKE and EDGE GEL
are sticking
with him as a spokesman, CAMPBELL’S SOUP let White’s endorsement contract
expire just
days after the speech, according to 20/20.

Even more dramatic, however, was CBS’ withdrawal of a job offer made to
White to be a
football analyst for the network. THe football star said that the job at
CBS was
practically in the bag – until the speech. Then the president of CBS
sports cancelled
because of the expected backlash from gay activists.

In an interview with American Family Radio’s TODAY’S ISSUES, White said
when the head
of CBS sports called him to withdraw the job offer, “He was more
concerned about the
backlash that they would get from the human rights community and the gay
community,”
White said of his conversation, “and I asked him did he consider the
backlash that they
could potentially get from Christians, and his response was no.”

Still, it doesn’t seem to bother the Packer great. He said, “I lost my
opportunity to
work at CBS. They don’t want me to work for them. Praise God.”

ACTION ADDRESSES:

CBS Corporation
Chrm. Michael Jordan
51 West 52nd Street
New York, NY 10019-6188
Phone 212/975-4312
Fax 212/975-8714
Point Your Browser: http://www.wcbs.cbsnow.com/navbar/feedback.html
E-mail marketing@cbs.com
mailto:marketing@cbs.com

Campbell Soup Company
Chrm. David W. Johnson
Campbell Place
Camden, NJ 08103
Phone 800/257-8443
Fax 609/342-3878
Point Your Browser: http://www.campbellkitchen.com/response1.asp

You can listen to the TODAY’S ISSUES program with Reggie White from our
Web Site. Just
go to our Web Site and access the AFR page and enjoy the interview. Or,
simply point
your browser to: [ http://afr.afa.net ].

====================================================
“Spreading Truth on the Information Superhighway”
AFA ACTION ALERT
Buddy Smith, Editor
Subscribe/Unsubscribe by contacting: afalert@afa.net
mailto:afalert@afa.net
Please tell a friend about the AFA ACTION ALERT.

– ——— End forwarded message ———-

_____________________________________________________________________
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——————————

From: SKYLeung
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:58:46 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: Something for which to pray…

Dear CAC,

I’m grateful for the reminders about persecution both here and abroad.
Sometimes we haven’t the foggiest idea about the tribulation Christ promised
his followers.

Question: what is currently the largest Muslim country in the world?

Consider these two articles about Indonesia from the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1998-05/14/203l-051498-idx.html
is an article with many of the facts regarding Indonesia today.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1998-05/14/139l-051498-idx.html
is a related article that poses a question at the end. Is the answer strictly
political? What do you suppose God is up to in Indonesia?

Prayerfully,
Stephen

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 01:55:14 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: NIV

Hi;

What is the purpose of having the Bible? How does it differ from all the
other spiritual and theological books? Is the Bible just another source
for understanding spiritual truths?, with myself as the determiner of
which source is right? I believe that the Bible is unique being the Word
of God and that it is the final authority for faith and practice.

Since the Bible holds this unique and authoritative place, the most
important issue in translation is that it is to be as accurate to the
original text as possible. Secondary is its smooth readability. If it
is not accurate, how can I trust the understanding I receive from it,
however smooth flowing it is. Even if the NIV gives easier
understanding, it does more harm if that understanding is wrong.

To say that a translation is very “literal” is not a bad thing.
“Literal” is not a reason to downgrade; rather it is a reason to be
appreciated. What am I looking for in a Bible? A “dynamic equivalent?”
Or an accurate literal translation that is reliable and readable.

Bill wrote > And you made these accusations not knowing the origin and
background of the NIV. > WHEN I SAY I AM A CHRISTIAN
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I’m not shouting “I am saved”
> > I’m whispering “I get lost!”
> > “That is why I chose this way.”
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I don’t speak of this with pride.
> > I’m confessing that I stumble
> > and need someone to be my guide.
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I’m not trying to be strong.
> > I’m professing that I’m weak
> > and pray for strength to carry on.
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I’m not bragging of success.
> > I’m admitting I have failed
> > and cannot ever pay the debt.
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I’m not claiming to be perfect,
> > my flaws are too visible
> > but God believes I’m worth it.
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I still feel the sting of pain
> > I have my share of heartaches
> > which is why I seek His name.
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I do not wish to judge.
> > I have no authority.
> > I only know I’m loved.

But understand that the poem was only the catalyst that started our
discussions.

G. wrote:

>>I’ve become puzzled as to how the Biblical teaching of justification by
faith
actually applies to Jennifer’s poem (below). Is the author of her poem
(“When
I say I am a Christian”) 1) demon possessed; 2) unsaved; 3) ‘apart from
Christ’ ; 4) of the ‘flesh’/of a ‘sinful nature’ ; 5)
unjustified,unsanctified
; 6) out of Fellowship ; 7) fruitless ; 8) crazy ; 9) ignorant ;10) a
liar?
Where does the author stand? <<

Made complete in Christ,
Ben

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——————————

From: SKYLeung
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:03:51 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NIV

Brother Ben and others,

No way to give a concise answer to “why so many versions.” But, Daniel B.
Wallace at Dallas Theological Seminary gives a nice summary at the following
URL:
http://www.netbible.org/docs/soapbox/versions.htm

(BTW, the opening site http://www.netbible.org gives info on the new NET
Bible).

Obviously there’s a difference in objectives between formal equivalence
(literal) translations and dynamic equivalence (common language) translations.
However, those who are multi-lingual understand the differences you get with
different entering objectives.

Those of us not educated in seminary have a tough time keeping straight was/is
autographa, Majority Text, Masoretic Text, Qumran Scrolls, MSS,
Antiochian/Byzantine texts, Alexandrian/Egyptian texts, Septuigint, Vulgate,
Latin Vulgate, Textus Receptus, etc. But, obviously inclusion/exclusion of
different manuscripts have accounted for different Greek New Testaments. And,
from these and their numerous revisions, those that translate into English
will inevitably arrive at different translations. This does not rule out the
profit motive or theological bias on behalf of some translators and
publishers. But as long as there is a philosophy that a better translation
can be produced to account for the changing cache of ancient manuscripts, the
changing use/understanding of the reader’s language, and ?changing?
understanding of Koine Greek, teams (and individuals) will embark to do so.
Should they stop at some point? I know the 1611 Authorized King James Version
only (not New Scofield either) guys say they should cease and desist.

As for the Bible in the pew, each church probably should decide on one so that
everyone one reads from the same (or can read aloud in unison) on Sunday. The
discovery of common (Koine) Greek gave affirmation that the Bible doesn’t have
to be in high-sounding language, so an easily understood translation should be
okay. One commonly stocked translation contributes to the sense of unity
(maybe conformity) during services. Where there are immigrants worshiping,
it is a good idea to have a easy to read translation on hand. I think that’s
why many of us use NIV.

However, in a (group or personal) study, i believe a few “literal”
translations are valuable. If one “dynamic equivalence” tranlation (say NIV)
is used, another (say NEB) should be on hand to compare the “interpretative”
aspects of the translations. All this is for the sake of accurate
understanding.

[From time to time i’ve also wanted to ask (for the sake of our brothers and
sisters fluent in Chinese) whether or not a Chinese Bible should be translated
from the Greek and Hebrew texts or from one of 200 English Bible
translations.]

Finally, i don’t mean to say that “sarx” shouldn’t be translated to simply
“flesh.” I just wonder if our understanding of “flesh” is congruent. I’m
just not ready to rush headlong into interpreting flesh as simply my physical
body and then divorcing that from me/my nature. This is because i can then
easily reason that i am not my body; my body is not me. If i fall back on my
faulty understanding (colored by classic western philosophy) i might assume
that i must be my mind or my inner man. My physical body is what’s wrong with
me. When i sin, it is my physical body that has done it apart from who i
really am. Is this a dichotomy to which we should think the Apostle Paul was
pointing? It maybe just me, but i’m not ready to go there yet.

Blessings as we discuss,
Stephen

——————————

From: JWongCDI
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:01:15 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: G.: I am a Christian

One more thing, to bro. Ben’s valid comments.

The poem (which may be designed to appease non-Christian’s criticism) may
actually give to the non-Christian world a distorted image of the true wonder
of being a Child of God (a Christian), robbing God of the glory due to His
marvelous grace.

Joe

——————————

From: Chung7
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:52:54 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: how to get off list

Hello,

I have been receiving sooo many emails! Can I get off the list for now?
How do I do that?

Thanks,
Richard

——————————

From: Antti Lange
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 04:36:53 +0300
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: G.: I am a Christian

Benjamin C Wong wrote:
> The poem speaks about the experiences
> and feelings of a Christian
> that are not true of the Christian.
> He is still a wimpering sinful human….
> Where does the author stand?
> Made complete in Christ,
> Ben
Please let me refer to Rick Joyner’s published prophesy (Morning Star,
1996?): “The Final Quest”. One of the main themes in this loving endtime
message from the Lord is that we Christians are much too doctrinal in
our ways of thinking and it happens at the expense of humble
warmheartedness. The more Christians increasingly share Jennifer’s
lovely mind the more glorious will His Bride become. Oh, it is so true
that demons are too often riding on the Lord’s white horses who are we
Christians. The Biblical background of this? Jesus had to tell Apostle
Peter: “Go away Satan! You, Peter, are now after Earthly things not the
Heavenlies.” Jennifer’s poem reflects Apostle Paul’s experiences and
feelings.
With love,
Antti

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:10:42 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: I am Christian

Shalom;

So what?? A major and popular question of the man-centered Christian
education principle.

Assuming that the Christian is in his being, perfected, righteous in
Christ and that the reason he sins is because of his physical self being
indwelt by sin. When he lives in the confidence of his physical self he
will do what he doesn’t wish and not be able to do the good that he wish.

What are the significance or ramification of this truth?

1. Concern living our Christian lives.
Learning to live by the Spirit, depending on Him to control and
live out the righteousness that God had made us. Rather than
striving to resist sinning and prepare many tools
(including rules and expectations) to help godly living.

Living by the grace principle. Much easier to avoid falling into
the work principle.

Helping and encouraging other believers to “walk” by the Spirit.
Rather than judging them in their accomplishments.

2. Concern our relationship with each other.
Not judging, condemning as evil those who sin; becoming
self-righteous because of how one lives his life, and how
others live their lives.

Admonishing, rebuking, disciplining with compassion and purposing
to restore (not to punish).
To truly “wash feet”, cleansing from daily living – sanctifying
his behavior – not cleansing his being.

To be able to truly practice forgiveness. (Think about this!)

The expansion of these areas (so much are involved) are some of the
practical aspects of our discussion.

Yours for His glory,

Ben

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——————————

From: “Rev. L. Dowell”
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:02:26 -0400
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: G.: I am a Christian

Antti Lange wrote:
>
> Benjamin C Wong wrote:
> > The poem speaks about the experiences
> > and feelings of a Christian
> > that are not true of the Christian.
> > He is still a wimpering sinful human….
> > Where does the author stand?
> > Made complete in Christ,
> > Ben
> Please let me refer to Rick Joyner’s published prophesy (Morning Star,
> 1996?): “The Final Quest”. One of the main themes in this loving endtime
> message from the Lord is that we Christians are much too doctrinal in
> our ways of thinking and it happens at the expense of humble
> warmheartedness. The more Christians increasingly share Jennifer’s
> lovely mind the more glorious will His Bride become. Oh, it is so true
> that demons are too often riding on the Lord’s white horses who are we
> Christians. The Biblical background of this? Jesus had to tell Apostle
> Peter: “Go away Satan! You, Peter, are now after Earthly things not the
> Heavenlies.” Jennifer’s poem reflects Apostle Paul’s experiences and
> feelings.
> With love,
> Antti

=================/ld

What is a Christian?
I just thought I would piggyback onto this post, A. It isn’t because you
have done anything to me, it is just that this seems an opportune
subject thread back around again. “What is a Christian?” “Who is
Christian?” I do not know whether or not my posts are getting through,
but I have yet to receive a straight on post response from the CAC list.
It is almost as if I were not here, and I am a valid member of the list
and a member of the clergy as are most on this list. Now is my
constantly being ignored indicative of the way matters are being handled
by clergy in their churches? And, if so, I can more readily understand
the dilemma members most of the household of faith are confronted with
(i.e., Christian?) Talk is cheap when actions do not conform to living
the Christ(ian) life. As the “boomers” say, “What’s up with that?”

Oh well, these are my thoughts, and, I own them and take full
responsibility for them, too.

Until then,
God’s continued peace and power,
Rev. L. Dowell 🙂
revldowell-clergywomen@erols.com
http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/7222
http://www.erols.com/revldowell-clergywomen/

——————————

From: Gdaht
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:31:19 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail:G: “I am a Christian”

In a message dated 98-05-16 01:04:12 EDT, revldowell-clergywomen@erols.com
writes:

<>

Dear Lanny, Brothers Ben and Joe, and CAC,

What is the relationship betw “tolerance” and “unity” in Jesus Christ? As far
as I know, “tolerance” is not a Biblical doctrine _per se_, but “unity” is
(e.g. “oneness” in Jn. 17) . But, should we practice “tolerance” (as wider
inclusion/acceptance) or insist upon “unity” (which, interestingly, seems to
entail exclusion if based on the ff.):

<>

Note: Bro. Ben signed his latest open letter to Bro. Bill: “For unity”. I (and
I feel sure that many CACrs) heartily agree with this pursuit; (so perhaps) it
would be good to attempt to understand how “unity” works in context with our
prayerful discussion; esp how it works in relationship to “tolerance”.

Thoughts?

Blessings, G

——————————

From: Antti Lange
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 05:32:20 +0300
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail:G: “I am a Christian”

Gdaht wrote:
> In a message dated 98-05-16 01:04:12 EDT,
> One more thing, to bro. Ben’s valid comments.
>
> The poem (which may be designed to appease non-Christian’s criticism) may
> actually give to the non-Christian world a distorted image of the true wonder
> of being a Child of God (a Christian), robbing God of the glory due to His
> marvelous grace. >>
> Thoughts?

Let me again emphasize the beauty in Jennifer’s poem. I cannot help of
thinking Cinderella’s beautiful humble character in contrast to her step
sisters bold awareness of their own nobility.
With love,
Antti

——————————

From: Gdaht
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 10:15:01 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: Fwd: Indonesia testimony

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

– –part0_895500901_boundary
Content-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

fyi–g (this came from another listserver)

In a message dated 98-05-18 07:16:07 EDT, celebrated@juno.com writes:

<<
Dear List;

Re: Cell Group and Riot in Indonesia

I just received the following post from Jefri on
the list:

We are churches in Indonesia learn much from this current condition in
Indonesia. Jakarta is like a war. Many soldier patrol all over Jakarta.
For us Chinese Christian, it is impossible to make sunday services.
Because we have cell group we have several advantges :
1. We could send information to all of church member faster than without
cell group. Because we know each other better.
2. We can care each other and protect each other in one region. Before we
don’t know each other in one region. Cause we know each other, we could
help. We share food
3. While we couldn’t meet at church we could arrange prayer meeting in
our homes.
If the condition worsen maybe we will meet at home again to pray and
caring each other. We know that it’s just a sample for end times
condition. We need your help. Please pray for us in your cell group at
work session.
especially at 20 may, because many rumour that at 20 many poor people
will do the same like before while the student arrange national
demonstration. The rumour said that they will kill chinese people.
Please pray,pray, Thanks.
Jefri
=======================
For His Kingdom,

Rick Diefenderfer

>>

– –part0_895500901_boundary
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 06:15:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Indonesia testimony
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From: celebrated@juno.com (Richard R Diefenderfer)
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Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Dear List;

Re: Cell Group and Riot in Indonesia

I just received the following post from Jefri on
the list:

We are churches in Indonesia learn much from this current condition in
Indonesia. Jakarta is like a war. Many soldier patrol all over Jakarta.
For us Chinese Christian, it is impossible to make sunday services.
Because we have cell group we have several advantges :
1. We could send information to all of church member faster than without
cell group. Because we know each other better.
2. We can care each other and protect each other in one region. Before we
don’t know each other in one region. Cause we know each other, we could
help. We share food
3. While we couldn’t meet at church we could arrange prayer meeting in
our homes.
If the condition worsen maybe we will meet at home again to pray and
caring each other. We know that it’s just a sample for end times
condition. We need your help. Please pray for us in your cell group at
work session.
especially at 20 may, because many rumour that at 20 many poor people
will do the same like before while the student arrange national
demonstration. The rumour said that they will kill chinese people.
Please pray,pray, Thanks.
Jefri
=======================
For His Kingdom,

Rick Diefenderfer

_____________________________________________________________________
You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

– –part0_895500901_boundary–

——————————

From: “Ray Downen (outreach@ipa.net)”
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:02:06 -7
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail:G: “I am a Christian”

Well said!

Only those who are unaware of some portions of God’s inspired Word
can claim they are now fully delivered from sin and immune to it
while still in the flesh. It helps also to be blind to any wrongdoing
personally done. It was to Christians that John wrote to say, “If we
say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not
in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to
forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If
we say that we (Christians) have not sinned, we make him a liar, and
his word is not in us” (ASV) 1 John 1:8-10.

We’re urged to avoid sin. We’re also told that when we Christians DO
sin we must repent and pray for forgiveness. Sinners outside Christ
are told they must be BORN AGAIN. Sinners who have been born again
are told to repent and pray. We who brag about how good WE are may
think we can by “our goodness” save ourselves. We can’t.

Since Jesus did NOT sin, we who DO sin might better look to the
examples of Peter and Paul for help when our moral weakness overtakes
us. We agree that ALL have sinned. We really need to see the truth
that none of us during this life are perfect and sinless. God
provides for the forgiveness of every sin, but those who think
they’re perfect see no NEED for continuing repentance and prayer.

But that IS what some of our friends say they believe.
Your brief and eloquent suggestion is indeed well said. Thanks.

> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 05:32:20 +0300
> From: Antti Lange
> Reply-to: lange@fkf.net
> Organization: Anti Lange Corporation
> To: Gdaht
> Cc: cac@emwave.net
> Subject: Re: CAC_Mail:G: “I am a Christian”

> Gdaht wrote:
> > In a message dated 98-05-16 01:04:12 EDT,
> > One more thing, to bro. Ben’s valid comments.
> >
> > The poem (which may be designed to appease non-Christian’s criticism) may
> > actually give to the non-Christian world a distorted image of the true wonder
> > of being a Child of God (a Christian), robbing God of the glory due to His
> > marvelous grace. >>
> > Thoughts?
>
> Let me again emphasize the beauty in Jennifer’s poem. I cannot help of
> thinking Cinderella’s beautiful humble character in contrast to her step
> sisters bold awareness of their own nobility.
> With love,
> Antti
>
>
from Ray Downen respectfully on this day of the Lord.
417/782-0814 2228 Porter Joplin Mission Outreach.
Mail address is P O Box 1065 Joplin MO 64802-1065.
Internet home page addr = http://www.ipa.net/~outreach

——————————

From: jstantonh@juno.com (John S Heald)
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:06:16 -0400
Subject: CAC_Mail: New Jersey contact

Dear CAC subscribers,

On behalf of a small group of Chinese American Christians here, we hope
to contact other like minded brethren interested in forming small group
ministry in lower Monmouth County (Freehold area), New Jersey. Please
contact John at . And to all receiving this message
we ask, please pray for us, this region is ripe for harvest.

Yours in Christ,

J. Stanton Heald

_____________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:35:21 -0400
Subject: CAC_Mail: Prayers for Indonesia: Feature Story for May 18

Dear CACers:

FYI.

In Him,
J. Chang
– ——————————————————————–
This Feature Story was forwarded to you from ReligionToday.com
(http://www.ReligionToday.com/)
– ——————————————————————–
Rioters vent their anger at wealthy Christians

Much of the rioting in Indonesia is directed at Christians, who are
asking for prayer as the Asian nation slips into chaos.

…More than 500 people died this month in looting and burning. In
Jakarta, the capital, rioting destroyed 5,000 businesses, 500 bank
buildings, and more than 1,000 houses. Some 220 automatic teller
machines were looted. In Kota, a section of northern Jakarta, every
shop, bank, restaurant, and hotel was destroyed, said Bill Hekman
of Christian Leadership Association, who toured the area by car.

…Rioters aimed their fury at wealthy Chinese business people, who
are predominately Christian. “What is left is smoldering walls and
Chinese families sitting on the ground, some weeping, others
talking on the cellular phones, most just sitting and saying
nothing,” Hekman said. “One man told me, ‘we are all finished,
there is nothing left.’ ”

…The outbursts occurred after a 70% increase in prices of
kerosene and petroleum. The government raised the prices in an
effort to comply with the International Monetary Fund’s $40 billion
bailout plan after the collapse of the economy in 1997. The poor
underclass cook their food with kerosene, and the price increase
means many of them cannot cook, a Jesuit priest who works among the
poor said.

…Angry young men from nearby slums “came in masses with sledge
hammers and steel bars to pry open the steel shutters and
protective steel roll-doors in front of every shop,” Hekman said.
“As the people loot and burn they shout Allahuakbar! (God is
great).” Many came from the countryside to cities during
Indonesia’s economic boom, and are unemployed and bitter, living in
shacks while the wealthy drive by imported cars, news reports said.

…One church was saved from destruction when members erected a
huge sign saying prebumi, or indigenous Indonesian. Some shops also
were saved by posting similar signs. A few churches in shopping
malls were burned, although churches were not yet the primary
targets of rioters, eyewitnesses said. During Suharto’s
administration, 400 churches have been destroyed and burned, one
source said.

…”We can thank God we are alive,” Hekman said, commenting that
the destruction reminded him of the cities of Rotterdam and Berlin
at the end of World War II. “Please pray for the suffering
Chinese,” he requested.

…Another cause of the rioting occurred when police shot six
protesters at Trisaki University in Jakarta. The British
Broadcasting Corporation called the attack “totally unprovoked.”
Government opponents are demanding the resignation of President
Suharto, whom they blame for the nation’s economic woes. The
military strongman took power in 1966.

…Some Christian workers have remained in Jakarta while their
families have left, the Church Missionary Society said. Attendance
at All Saints Church, which caters mainly to expatriates, was down
80% May 17, said Andrew Lake, its chaplain. “The atmosphere was a
lot closer to the Last Supper than most Communion services get,” he
said. “I preached on Romans 8:28-39, identifying the confusion,
grief, and anger people were experiencing and then focusing on how
in all circumstances God is working out his loving purpose: nothing
less than to make us become like Jesus.”

…Christians who meet in homes for worship say they “understand
why the Holy Spirit was leading us in this way.” More than 200
group leaders have been trained in Jakarta, according to a
Christian leader who declined to be identified. Many public meeting
places and churches are damaged, so Christians are gathering in
homes for worship and prayer, the leader said.

…”People’s lives are in shambles following this tragic event.
Fear still grips many and there is a need to restore hope. This is
a time for the church to rise up and minister the love and grace of
our Lord.” The Christian population in Indonesia numbers 20 million
in a predominantly Muslim nation of 200 million.

…Indonesia “needs the gospel and the transforming power of Christ
to change their hearts,” one missionary said, adding he has no
plans to leave because he teaches at a Bible college and plans to
start another school. “We need to train Indonesians to be bold in
sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ. We must be on the job to be
faithful to our Lord.”

…The Indonesian church has failed to carry out the Great
Commission, one missionary said. “Indonesia’s national character of
politeness, kindness, and friendliness has become greed and
hatred,” he said. “Everybody in politics is calling for
reformation. But what we need now is transformation, and only
Christ can bring transformation.”

…Twelve thousand Americans are being evacuated, and the offices
and factories of American Express, Boeing, Citicorp, Nike, Mobil,
Mattel, and Caterpillar are being closed. The closings will add to
the unemployment that is crippling the nation. Airports are jammed
with people trying to get out of the country as foreign embassies
evacuate their staff and citizens.

…Suharto opponents plan a mass demonstration in the streets of
Jakarta May 20. “The potential for such a demonstration is
frightening,” one woman said. Indonesia’s most powerful Muslim
spokesman, Amien Rais, leader of a 28 million-member moderate
group, said he will participate in the demonstrations. May 20 is
National Awakening Day, which commemorates Indonesia’s uprising
against the colonial Dutch government.

…Christians say they are eager for a peaceful transition of power
in Indonesia. “Otherwise, there will be a terrible bloodletting as
law and order collapses, and the violence could take a religious
form as militant Muslims slaughter Christians,” one leader said.

– ——————————————————————–
Copyright 1998 Media Management. All rights reserved.

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——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 03:11:06 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: “I am a Christian”

Ray wrote;

>> We’re also told that when we Christians DO sin we must repent and pray
for forgiveness.<<

But the Bible does not teach this. Not to my limited knowledge.

I Jn. 1:9 does not give to us a formula to get forgiveness (work
principle); but it describe a mentality that is necessary for fellowship
with God. (Description): When a Christian is in sin he is walking 180
degree from God, thus there can be no fellowship with God. Fellowship is
only possible if God turns 180 degree (impossible) and go in the
direction of the Christian or if the Christian turns 180 degree
(confession; say the same thing; agree with) and go in the direction of
God. If the Christian agrees with God, God will forgive and there is
fellowship.

Shalom;
Ben

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——————————

From: Antti Lange
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:41:49 +0300
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: “I am a Christian”

Benjamin C Wong wrote:
> Ray wrote;
> >> …we must repent and pray
> for forgiveness.< But the Bible does not teach this.
> Not to my limited knowledge.

Well, yes and no. The word “repent” means changing your mental attitude
i.e. starting to walk towards God as you Ben so clearly stated. However,
the change is dead like your faith if it does not bear any fruit. One of
the fruits should be any humble prayer of forgiveness that is based on
the work of Jesus and not on the act or form of prayer.

Shalom;
Antti

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:45:58 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: “I am a” 1 Nature vs. 2 et al

CACers, Ben, Antti, Joseph, Stephen, L. Dowell, et al:

It’s been two months of discussion about the Christian life, initiated
by a poem titled “I am a Christian”.

We’ve delved into the ideas of the Christian’s 1 nature versus 2 (and
haven’t seen proponents of 3 nature speak up), the sins of believers,
explanations of Romans 7 and 1 John in various ways, and bible
translations. But I sense that we’re not articulating our views clearly
and logically, and 2 months is more than enough time to have listed our
position clearly.

Please now close this discussion. Feel free to continue your dialogue
in private for those interested.

2 possible new topics: (1) Chinese Christians in Indonesia, political,
economic, and spiritual impact; (2) concepts of leadership, teamwork, &
empowerment among Chinese Christians.

dj
– —
*

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 00:03:00 -0400
Subject: CAC_Mail: HUMOR: INTERNET FOR CHRISTIANS

Dear CACers:

FYI. Humor & a change of pace… =)

In Him,
J. Chang
– ————-
Classic CHURCH BULLETIN Bloopers:

1) For those of you who have children and don’t know it, we have a
nursery
downstairs.
2) Due to the Rector’s illness, Wednesday’s healing services will be
discontinued until further notice.
3) Evening massage – 6 p.m.
4) The eighth-graders will be presenting Shakespeare’s Hamlet in the
church
basement on Friday at 7 p.m. The congregation is invited to attend
this
tragedy.
5) Potluck supper: prayer and medication to follow.
6) Don’t let worry kill you off – let the church help.
7) The concert held in Fellowship Hall was a great success. Special
thanks
are due to the minister’s daughter, who labored the whole evening
at the piano, which as usual fell upon her.
8) Scouts are saving aluminum cans, bottles, and other items to be
recycled. Proceeds will be used to cripple children.
9) The outreach committee has enlisted 25 visitors to make calls on
people
who are not afflicted with any church.
10) Low Self-Esteem Support Group will meet Thursday at 7 to 8:30p.m.
Please use the back door.
11) Ushers will eat latecomers.
12) The Rev. Merriwether spoke briefly, much to the delight of the
audience.
13) During the absence of our pastor, we enjoyed the rare privilege of
hearing a good sermon when J.F. Stubbs supplied our pulpit.
14) Next Sunday Mrs. Vinson will be soloist for the morning service. The
pastor will then speak on “It’s a Terrible Experience.”
15) Stewardship Offertory: “Jesus Paid It All”
16) Remember in prayer the many who are sick of our church and community.
17) Pastor is on vacation. Massages can be given to church secretary.
18) 22 members were present at the church meeting held at the home of
Mrs.
Marsha Crutchfield last evening. Mrs. Crutchfield and Mrs. Rankin
sang a
duet, The Lord Knows Why.
19) The choir invites any member of the congregation who enjoys sinning
to
join the choir.
20) Weight Watchers will meet at 7 p.m. Please use large double door at
the
side entrance.

– ———————————————————————————————————-

INTERNET FOR CHRISTIANS NEWSLETTER is published via email and on the WWW
by
Quentin J. Schultze and the Gospel Communications Network
http://www.gospelcom.net. Dr. Schultze is Professor of Communication at
Calvin College and Special Coordinator for the Gospel Communications
Network. The newsletter may be posted and distributed without charge for
non-profit use. Commercial media may quote from it with proper
attribution
to both the newsletter and Dr. Schultze. (copyright 1998 Quentin J.
Schultze and Gospel Communications International, Inc.,
http://www.gospelcom.net/gf)

_____________________________________________________________________
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Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

——————————

From: Rlfong
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 03:47:56 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: Send your kids to Mars * Not a CAC subject

Dear CACers

Since DJ wants to divert us, check out this website

http://spacekids.hq.nasa.gov/mars98/

and enter your kids name, not your kids, to be sent to Mars later this year.
The limit is one million names and they’re up to 800,000 as of 5-20-98.

Ron Fong
Fremont, CA

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 03:59:09 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: I am a Christian

Dear L. Dowell;

Greetings and welcome to CAC.

You wrote;

>>What is a Christian?<<

I wasn't sure that was a serious question and did not understand whether
you had more input for the discussion.

A Christian is one who has believed in Jesus Christ. This answer doesn't
seem to be adequate for your question. How about more input from you?

Shalom,

Ben

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——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 03:59:08 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: "New Trans-Cultural Mission (Asia)" : Fw: MPP/Moslems Threaten More Street Demonstrations

FYI, Just one more of the many reports. But it adds another dimension
and deepens our concern.

——————————

From: Rlfong
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 04:02:08 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: RE: % of Asian-Americans are Christians

Dear CACers

I wrote to the SJ Mercury News reporter and passed on Fenggang’s assertation
that the GSS is limited with respect to Asians. She was thrilled to have
received such a wide distribution, but asks, if not the GSS, what source
can one use? She feels she took numerous steps to error-trap the number and
various sources.

Any takers? Melanie, want to check it out with your JEMS sources? Anyway
tied in with the US Center for World Missions or the BARNA group who can
provide info? or CDI?

She also says “…basic stats dictate that if you have a response size of more
than about 380, then the margin of error is less than 5 percent *regardless*
of the population size….” Her company policy forbids her from commenting
directly to newsgroups about source data or about articles published.

Ronnie Fong
Fremont, CA

The San Jose Mercury News published that 50% of Asians in America were
Christians. Many CACers were incredulous at the high percentage of Asians as
Christians. In the Christian and Japanese American communities, it is
commonly thought that Christians number in the 5-10% range, and probably
lower. It is certainly much higher in the Korean, Filipino and Vietnamese
American community; but overall at 50% seemed high.

Dr.Fenggang Yang, Professor of Sociology University of Houston, wrote: “the
General Social Survey (GSS) by the National Opinion Research Center (NORC) is
not a good data set for making estimates of Asian Americans. GSS survey
includes about 1,500 adults each year, among them, Asians are too small a
percentage to be a representative sample, even if aggregating all in the years
of 1990-1997. I once ran a breakdown of all Chinese from mid-1970s to
mid-1990s. Yes, the proportion of Christians is high. But examining other
factors, it shows more American-born people than in the total population. GSS
percentage may be indicative to certain extent, but should not be used to
calculate estimates. Therefore, I would not take the article’s estimates of
Asian Christians in the 1970-1997 as factual.

——————————

From: AsianPK
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:14:43 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: Asian American Men’s Conferences for 98-99

Two conferences designed for Asian American men are planned for Northern
California (10/24/98) and Southern California (3/6/99). Both will be very
similar to the first AA Men’s conf sponsored by Promise Keepers this past
August, 97. However, PK is unable to sponsor either of these conferences due
to their current financial situation.

The Nor Cal conf will be sponsored by MESA, MInistries for English Speaking
Asians. Location is the same as last year, the Redwood Chapel in Castro
Valley. Speakers include Pastors Reuel Calica, Ken Fong, David Gibbons, Jeff
Louie, and Wayne Ogimachi. Men will be able to select one of the following
workshops to attend: Melvin Wong on Perfectionism, Sam Leong on Father/Son
relationships, Brian Owyoung on Anger, Wayne Fong on Missions, Victor Quon and
Philip Lee on Youth Ministries, and Louis Lee on Lust. Cost is $35 (includes
lunch) with early registration discounts available. There is also a $15
discount for students (through college). Registration brochures and posters
(11 x 17) are available now.

The Southern Cal conf will be sponsored by a coalition of churches and
parachurch organizations. Location is the EV Free Church in Fullerton.
Speakers include Kevin Doi, Ken Fong, David Gibbons, and Cory Isheda. Cost
will be about $35 (includes lunch) with early registration and student
discounts available. Sponsoring churches (with worship attendance 300) are asked to donate at least $500 toward this conference
project. Additonal funds may be made available as “seed money” that will
serve as an interest free loan to be paid back as conference registration fees
are collected.

Both of these conferences will feature a “Special Guest” registration ticket
that is intended for men who are not attending any church on a regular basis
for just $10 each. It is the desire of conference sponsors and organizers
that each conference serve as an effective outreach to unchurched Asian
American men.

Special training sessions will be provided to share how churches can develop
their men’s ministries as well as how they can maximize the conference to
reach men. In Nor Cal these two training sessions will be held on July 11 at
the San Lorenzo Japanese Christian Church (615 Lewelling Blvd. about 1/2 mile
west of 880, 510.483.9455) and August 22 at the Chinese Church in Christ, San
Jose (1490 Saratoga Ave. north of Prospect, 408.364.2242). Both training
sessions will be held from 10:30am to 12:30pm and are free of charge. Pastors
and lay leaders (especially those involved with men’s ministry) are encouraged
to attend one of these sessions. Both will be lead by Mr. Keith Young,
formerly PK Nor Cal area manager, currently executive director of Point Man
(men’s ministry in Sacramento region).

Please help forward this information to others who may be interested. For
more info please contact me via email or call 510.278.1000.

Thank you very much!

Louis Lee
Promise Keepers National Asian Coordinator

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:04:01 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: RE: % of Asian-Americans are Christians

Rlfong says,

>received such a wide distribution, but asks, if not the GSS, what
source
>can one use? She feels she took numerous steps to error-trap the
number and
>various sources.

>She also says “…basic stats dictate that if you have a response size
of more
>than about 380, then the margin of error is less than 5 percent
*regardless*
>of the population size….”

About the second point first: if you do one-shot survey with random
sampling of a couple of hundred cases, the margin of error could be
small. However, when you pool surveys of several years and pull certain
cases out of the surveys, as the the SJ Mercury News article did, the
results may not be valid for any inferential generalization. The GSS is
not intended for making generalizations of ethnic minorities, especially
the small minorities in terms of their population size. In some years,
in order to make some generalizations of blacks, which count about 10%
of the U.S. population, the GSS had to oversample blacks for that
purpose. In 1990, Asian Americans were only less than 2.7% of the total
U.S. population. This means that out of about 1,500 cases in each
year’s GSS, only 45 respondents could be (not necessarily were) Asians.
You tell me whether you can rely on the GSS for making generalizations
on Asian Americans. On the other hand, as I wrote earlier, the GSS data
may provide some suggestive indications for Asian Americans.

About the first point, to be direct to the point: there is no reliable
source at all at this time. Face it, this is a stark reality. If we
have the burning desire to learn about religious adherence among Asiang
Americans, we have to do focused surveys.

Well, to back down a little bit, there have been small surveys of
certain Asian ethnic groups that have religious questions, such as
several surveys of Koreans in Chicago, Los Angeles, etc, and the L.A.
Times survey of Chinese in Southern California a year ago, and I know a
professor at CUNY has been interviewing Chinese, Koreans and Indians in
NYC. There may be more of this kind of surveys.

In addition, there was a National Survey of Religious Identification
(NSRI) in 1990 which phone-intereviewed 113,000 adults throughout the
U.S. The results were published in the book _One Nation Under God:
Religion in Contemporary American Society_ by Barry Kosmin and Seymour
Lachman, Harmony Books, 1993. **This book (and the survey) got some
criticisms on its problems of representativeness of some minority
(ethnic and religious) groups.** But anyway, it has this to say about
Asian Americans (no breakdown of ethnic groups): 33.6% Asian Americans
were Protestants, 27.1% Catholics, 19.1% no religion, 4.1% Buddhists,
3.7% Hindus, 3% Muslims, 1.8% Mormons, 3.6% other religions, and 3.5%
refused.
This book also says that among Asian American High School Seniors in
1990, there were 25.4% Protestants, 20.1% Catholics, 25.4% no religion,
8.9% Buddhists, 3.1% Hindus, 3.1% Muslims, 0.7% Mormons, 4.1% other
religions, and 9% refused. Again, **This book (and the survey) got some
criticisms on its problems of representativeness of some minority
(ethnic and religious) groups.**

Hope this is helpful for those who like to know the numbers.

Fenggang
– —————————————————————
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

——————————

From: JWongCDI
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:31:28 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail:G: “Tolerance and Unity”

OK, brother G;

Wanting to leave “I am a Christian” as recommended by DJ.

Here’s my understanding of the terms “unity” and “tolerance” for your
evaluation. It may not be identical to “Webster’s” but is my general usage.

“Unity” refers to that which is shared among people and therefore forms a
bond.
Physical: refers to a geographical unity. (being at the same place at the
same time, doing the same things.)
Intellectual: refers to a mental unity. (agreed in doctrines, perspectives,
goals)
Spiritual: refers to a unity of being. (Child of God, Righteous,
Saints/Elected)

I favor Spiritual unity as the primary bond for the Christian.

“Tolerance” refers to the acceptance of what is not shared. Tolerance means I
do not have to destroy or somehow eliminate the difference. Tolerance is a
negative type word and does not require an “embracing” or “support” of the
difference.
I find tolerance quite comfortable, when I recognize that it’s not my
responsibility to eliminate the differences. Those differences (if I see my
position as righteous) would fit into my definition of “sin.”

Hope this has some “intellectual unity” for you. 🙂

agape,
Joe

——————————

From: Tom Steers
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 12:48:33 -0700
Subject: CAC_Mail: RE: % of Asian-Americans are Christians

Dear CACers + Ronnie Fong,

I have been advocating privately that we need to compile a fairly accurate
directory of all the Asian churches in the USA. This would be a good start
in the right direction…even though we are talking about a very difficult
path.

The directory would be a very ambitious project and difficult since
changes of pastors and addresses occur regularly. Once we have a good
listing of all the churches, someone then could do a survey of average
attendance of weekly worship services,the official membership, church
growth rates, etc.

Even with all this hard work, determining the % Christians would only be a
“guesstimate.” The definition of Christian would be one problem. (We have
heard that 80% of Koreans in the USA are in the Korean churches, but how
many of those are there for social/cultural reasons rather than spiritual?)
Another problem is “guesstimating” the number of Asians who attend
churches that are not Asian, and, the number of Asians that do not attend
church, but are Christians.

But even with huge problems, I would delight in seeing someone take this
project on. A good start on such a directory was done by Louis Lee in 1990
with the MESA Directory. “Thanks, Louis for your pioneering heart in this.”

Another project that would be a giant encouragement for all Asian American
Christians would be to see a listing and brief description of all the new
Asian American churches that have been started in the past five years, or
in the 90’s. We keep hearing of the new church plants all over the
US…Seattle, Chicago, New York, Dallas, etc. etc. For those of us in
California we can’t keep up with all the new works.

Some of them are beyond our normal connections or “word-of-mouth”
boundaries(i.e. Pastor Paul Jacob and myself have started a South Asian
Fellowship since last December. Often when I mention this to someone, I
have to explain who are South Asians, or, the fact that ours is the second
English-speaking church for South Asians in the SoCal area. Speaking of
South Asians, according to AsianWeek articles on U.S. Asian demographics,
there are more immigrants or descendants from India in the US than Koreans
from Korea. But the number of churches and Christians is extremely low.

Isn’t there someone out there trying to figure out what to do for a thesis
or dissertation?

Tom Steers
Los Angeles

——————————

From: “Antony W. Alumkal”
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:24:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: RE: % of Asian-Americans are Christians

Keep in mind that recent immigrants with limited English skills have a
high likelihood of refusing to answer surveys like the GSS. Those with NO
English skills, of course, are excluded.

Tony

========================================================================
Antony Alumkal |”If you do it once, it’s called a mistake.
Dept. of Sociology | If you do it twice, it’s called jazz.”
aalumkal@princeton.edu| -Lars Fusco

——————————

From: Rlfong
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 20:12:58 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: RE: % of Asian-Americans are Christians

And doesn’t certain existing Chinese American / Japanese American groups
already have a fairly comprehensive list of churches, like EMS ( Japanese
Evangelical Missions Society ) FACE ( Fellowship of Chinese American
Evangelicals ), CCM ( Chinese Christian Mission), CCOWE ( Chinese Congress
of World Evangelization) and I forget the name of the East Coast Chinese
American group? and isn’t there already the beginnings of such a list with
the Chinese Christian website in the midwest?

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 21:18:30 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: RE: % of Asian-Americans are Christians

>
>Keep in mind that recent immigrants with limited English skills have a
>high likelihood of refusing to answer surveys like the GSS. Those with NO
>English skills, of course, are excluded.
>
>Tony
>
>========================================================================
>Antony Alumkal |”If you do it once, it’s called a mistake.
>Dept. of Sociology | If you do it twice, it’s called jazz.”
>aalumkal@princeton.edu| -Lars Fusco
>

Tony,

Glad to “see” you here and thank you for bringing up the language issue.
Yes, a survey of Asian Americans should not use English only. I don’t have
the U.S. census tables at hand, but I think the proportion of Asians who
speak an other language at home is quite high. Also, the L.A. Times survey
a year ago found that over 80% (or close to 90%?) respondents were
foreign-born. This was consistent with the U.S. Census but surprising for
me because I had thought that California had more ABCs than OBCs.

Also, do you know any surveys (any, no matter how bad or good it is) about
Filipino-, Indian-, and Vietnamese-Americans in regard to their religions?

Fenggang
P.S.: how are things going?

——————————

From: Jin Qian
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 23:02:36 -0400
Subject: CAC_Mail: [Fwd: Read Headline Chinese News WITH/WITHOUT Chinese System]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

– ————–2AFBD1F7ED
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

This is just for your info. Thanks.

Jin

– ————–2AFBD1F7ED
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

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From: Jeffrey Zhu
To: cafa@tosca.gnets.ncsu.edu, china@acpub.duke.edu,
chinancsu@tosca.gnets.ncsu.edu, facss@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Read Headline Chinese News WITH/WITHOUT Chinese System
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This news Web page is developed to provide some convenience for
readers who are interested in reading newspaper headlines in Chinese.
It collected 10 most popular newspaper’s daily headline so that
readers do not need to go from site to site. The site is in US and the
access is much faster. The URL is:

http://www.globalchinatown.net/news/

There is a section specifically for World Cup 98 for soccer fans.
Cool stuff!

Following Q & A is designed for readers to use this page more
efficiently.

(1) If I do not have Chinese system, can I read the online news?

Yes, click on the sign “no chinese software”

(2) If I have Chinese system, will it be faster?

Yes, since the file does not need to be converted
into GIF format

(3) If I want to read Big5, will it display Big5 code for me?

Yes, Click on the “fan ti”. It will show Big5 for
you. The default is GB code.

(4) Where is the news from?

The news is from 10 most popular newspapers in
mainland China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong in the headline
formt. Click on the headline news items will lead you
to that site for detailed report ( in whatever chinese
code it uses )

(5) How often the news is updated?

It is updated daily

(6) Can you send the headline news to my email box?

Yes, if you have Chinese system installed on your
machine. You can subscribe the news from this page

(7) Where is the page?

The URL is :

http://www.globalchinatown.net/news/

(8) Who did it?

A few Chinese students from RTP area.

(9) Where should I send the comments and suggestions?

Please send it to:

support@globalchinatown.net

There is a BBS for discussion at:

http://www.globalchinatown.net/BBS/bbsPublic/news/

Hope you will enjoy reading it.

– ————–2AFBD1F7ED–

——————————

From: SKYLeung
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 00:34:01 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: More Kids Shooting Kids

Dear CAC,

More kids shooting kids, and I’m sure more and more folks are beginning to
sense a national epidemic.

Ever stop to think about which kids in your church, youth ministry, fellowship
are a potential headliner? Just found out the other day that one of the
students attending our youth group (though not asian) was expelled for
bringing a gun to school. This kinda stuff can drive you to your knees…

Another trend: Asian gangs are no longer strictly concentrated in ethnic
enclaves anymore. Their notoriety is on the rise in suburbia now. Anyone in
CAC land have experience in dealing with/reaching out to them? Any good POCs
on the matter?

I’ve heard the police departments have good liaisons for working with churches
– – particularly ethnic churches of other minorities – on the issue of gangs.
Anyone know any other good resources?

Watch and pray,
Stephen Leung

——————————

From: P Lee SLAM
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 12:22:06 EDT
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: RE: % of Asian-Americans are Christians

In a message dated 5/21/98 5:17:58 PM, Rlfong@aol.com wrote:

<>

You may be thinking of Ambassador For Christ in Paradise, Penn. They have a
good mailing list of Chinese Churches.

Philip Lee.

——————————

From: KG Louie
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 01:22:05 +0000
Subject: CAC_Mail: RE: % of Asian-Americans are Christians

>In a message dated 5/21/98 5:17:58 PM, Rlfong@aol.com wrote:
>
><>
>
>You may be thinking of Ambassador For Christ in Paradise, Penn. They have
>a good mailing list of Chinese Churches.
>
>Philip Lee.
>

…or perhaps you may be referring to ECBC- the Eastern Chinese Bible
Conference which will celebrating its 50th anniversary in 2000. Its
on-going ministry serves the English speaking Chinese – although it is not
restricted to the Chinese alone. It current has three conferences:

1) a yearly (late June) Teen-ECBC conference which focuses on the teenage
group level.
2) a bi-yearly Womens conference (mid summer) to serve the needs of todays
Christain women.
3) a yearly (Labor Day weekend) conference for the college and career set.

Some of the current CAC’er have attended one of the ECBCs in the past.

If anyone is interested in this ministry, pls get to me privately and I will
point you in the right direction. Thank you.

King Louie
NYC, NY

——————————

From: KG Louie
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 01:50:33 +0000
Subject: CAC_Mail: Eastern Chinese Bible Conference

CAC’ers

I neglected to mention in my last posting…

Pls respond to me privately if you are interested in additional information
about ECBC and INCLUDE YOUR SNAIL MAIL ADDRESS so I may send any printed
material that is available.

Would you want to be the ECBC (snail) mailing list? If so, reply YES.

“What a wonderful Savior is Jesus, my Jesus…”
Elisha A. Hoffman 1839-1929

Yes He is! ! ! !
King

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 02:18:38 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: Forgiveness

Ray;

Sorry for the confusion. When I wrote: “Ray wrote; ‘ We’re also told
that when we Christians DO sin we must repent and pray for forgiveness.'”
I responded with, “But the Bible does not teach this. Not to my limited
knowledge.”

I meant by this that one does not pray for forgiveness. He does not need
to go and get forgiveness.

But you are right Ray when you observed, “Your comments make clear that
you DO see the need for repentance and prayer by Christians who realize
they have sinned, …”

Forgiven,

Ben

_____________________________________________________________________
You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 23:11:17 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: pastor’s tenure and church growth

How often do Chinese churches change pastors? Or, what is the average
tenure of pastors serving Chinese churches? What are the common or modal
reasons that causes a pastor to resign from a church? What are the
consequences of voting out a pastor by the congregation? How can a church
recover from painful conflicts? Any one wants to share your views,
impressions, and opinions?

Below I forward a posting to another list. It may be interesting to some
CAC’ers.

Fenggang
– —–Original Message—–
From: KIRK HADAWAY
To: rrx list
Date: Saturday, May 23, 1998 5:42 AM
Subject: Re: [rrx] re: rrx556

>
>
>
> I don’t know who asked about pastor tenure and growth, but I
> did a study of Southern Baptist pastors using the entire
> denomination and looked at growth/decline by tenure. The
> best years for growth were three through six (in terms of
> mean percent change from the previous year). Growth tends
> to drop off during year seven and thereafter.
>
> Churches with rapid turnover of pastors are very unlikely to
> experience growth.
>
> In another study looking at characteristics of churches that
> begin to grow after years of stagnation I found that
> churches that break out of plateau situation tend to do so
> within the first or second year of a new pastor’s tenure or
> after at least six years. There was a bi-modal
> distribution, with few “breakout” churches in years three
> through five. In the first group the church was ready to be
> led and a new pastor was a catalyst for growth. In the
> second situation the churches had all sorts of problems
> that had to be worked through before growth could occur.
> This study also used Southern Baptist churches and compared
> samples of churches that had been plateaued for six years
> and began to grow with churches that had been plateaued for
> the same number of years and continued plateaued.
>
> All of this is written up in Church Growth Principles (now
> out of print) and in a couple of articles I did as case
> studies of how stagnant churches began to grow.
>
> Kirk
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> This note sent by “KIRK HADAWAY”
> to the rrx list .
> Send unsubscribe requests to rrx-request@ecunet.org
>
>

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 10:02:47 -0400
Subject: CAC_Mail: More Kids Shooting Kids: “They Only Know What You Teach ‘Em”

Dear CACers:

This article piggybacks on the theme brought out by Stephen.
The tragic killings in Springfield, Oregon by a teenager touches
a nerve in all of us. The following commentary attempts to
address the deeper moral issues that go beyond the usual
media debate about “quick fix” answers.

In Him,
J. Chang
– ————–
May 1998

Dear Friends:

In a telephone conversation last month with Gary Bauer, president of the
Family Research Council, we were sharing our concern about the shocking
evidences of moral decline seen today in our country. Values and
standards that have stood for centuries are rapidly crumbling, and yet
many people still seem oblivious to what is happening. Gary and I
decided during that conversation to write a commentary about the state
of the nation and publish it in a full-page ad in USA Today. That
occurred nationwide on April 7.

Our statement brought a great volume of phone calls and letters to Focus
on the Family and to the Family Research Council from readers who wanted
to thank us and let us know of their agreement. From this encouraging
response, it became obvious that many of our fellow citizens feel as we
do about the direction this country is headed and for the need to return
to the Judeo-Christian system of values.

For my regular letter this month, I want to share with you the revised
text of our ad in USA Today. We would, in fact, like to suggest that you
consider running it in your local newspaper in the days ahead, if you
think its message should be widely read. I’ll explain more about that
possibility at the end of this letter. For now, here is the commentary
by Gary and me.

“THEY ONLY KNOW WHAT YOU TEACH ‘EM”

The sounds of gun shots in a small Arkansas town continue to ring like a
bell– a bell that tolls for four little girls and a dedicated teacher
who put herself in mortal danger to shield a fifth child from a hail of
bullets, unleashed, God help us, by a 13-year-old boy and his
11-year-old pal.

But the bell sounds not only for the innocent dead in Jonesboro. It also
tolls for a nation that is turning its back on the moral law it once
cherished — a law written on every human heart, yet unrecognized by
many members of the younger generation who have never heard about it
from their elders.

Are we surprised at the spectacle of children killing children? Are we
shocked to open our newspapers, turn on our TVs, and look into the faces
of a couple of Opie and Beaver look-alikes charged with five counts of
capital murder? Didn’t we see it coming?

We should have known … should have anticipated … that children who
have watched thousands of murders on prime-time television, followed the
deadly exploits of Dr. Kevorkian, and been taught that there are no
moral absolutes … might come to see little harm in gunning down their
classmates.

Jonesboro marks a point of crisis, but one that is hardly new or unique.
What happened in this small town in Arkansas symbolizes America in moral
free-fall, America on a rapidly descending spiral, America without God
– — an America that has forgotten what her founding fathers meant when
they warned that only a virtuous people could remain free. If that
statement is accurate, and history has consistently validated it, then
we are living in the twilight of our liberty.

As always when a culture begins to unravel, it is the youngest members
who are most wounded and disturbed. Consider the following reports of
unspeakable crimes committed not by hardened thugs but by lost children:

September 1995: A family made a wrong turn down a street in Los Angeles
and was subjected to a hail of gunfire that killed their little girl.
Gang members poured bullets into the car for the “sheer fun of it.” 1

November 1996: A teenage girl delivered a child in a Delaware motel,
then she and her boyfriend allegedly put the living baby in a plastic
bag and drop it in a dumpster. 2 June 1997: A New Jersey teenager gave
birth to her baby in a bathroom stall at her high school prom. She
dropped the baby in the trash, then returned to the dance floor, where
she asked the band to play her favorite song, “The Unforgiven.” 3

October 1997: A 16-year-old boy in Pearl, Mississippi, allegedly slayed
his mother, then went to school and shot nine students, killing two,
including his former girlfriend. 4

December 1997: A young boy opened fire at Heath High School in West
Paducah, Kentucky, killing three and wounding five of his classmates. 5

December 1997: A 14-year-old boy in Stamps, Arkansas, allegedly fired
sniper rounds outside his school, wounding two students. 6

March 1998: In Dallas, Texas, four teenagers claiming to be vampires
went on a drug-crazed destruction spree, vandalizing dozens of cars and
homes, spray-painting racial slurs and burning down the office and
fellowship hall of Bethany Lutheran Church. 7

April 1998: In Yonkers, N.Y., a 15-year-old girl, upset that her teacher
called her parents about her poor academic performance, attacked the
pregnant instructor with a hammer. The teacher suffered multiple skull
fractures. 8

April 1998: In Indianapolis, Indiana, police have begun random searches
for weapons on school buses and in elementary schools after an
8-year-old boy allegedly pointed a gun at a female classmate who was
teasing him about his ears. 9

April 1998: Four teenagers in Santa Cruz, California, were arrested on
charges of drugging an 11-year-old girl and raping her. The teens
allegedly raped her in a parking lot, and then drove ten miles to a
wooded area where they smoked heroin and raped her again for several
hours. The police said that the girl was so drugged that she could not
fend off their attack. Assistant District Attorney Bob Lee said, “They
took the child and did about everything they could…. It’s as egregious
as it could possibly [be].” 10

This chronicle of children who have committed horrible crimes is
symptomatic of a culture in chaos. John Hazlewood, whose 14-year-old son
Brandon attends the Westside Middle School in Jonesboro, Arkansas, said
it best: “This is not the kids’ problem; it’s the way we’re raising them
today. They only know what you teach ’em.” 11

Where did we go wrong? At least some of the answers can be found in the
radical notions that have emerged in the last 30 years. Judges, with the
acquiescence of our legislators, have made it illegal for our schools to
post the Ten Commandments. It is becoming increasingly difficult — and
dangerous — for students to pray together on school campuses; meanwhile,
it’s easier for a man or woman to obtain a divorce than to escape from
an automobile lease agreement. The president of the United States
embraces the radical homosexual movement which opposes the legal basis
of marriage as a lifelong commitment between one man and one woman.
States are prohibited from protecting innocent children, in the process
of being born, from those who would puncture their skulls and suck their
brains out. Those who oppose this infanticide are call “extremists” by
our political leaders. Federal authorities decline to prosecute
hard-core pornographers. The government spends billions to promote “safe
sex” ideology in our schools, and officials hand out condoms and pills
to kids who assume they’re expected to use them. Laws protecting
children from obscenity on the Internet are struck down by justices to
protect the right of adults to market obscenity. Video poker machines
dot the landscape of a nation that was built on the principles of thrift
and deferred gratification. The “entertainment” industry glorifies
violence and sexual exploitation while pop music pays tribute to the
killing of police and the raping of women. And the list goes on. How
much carnage must we witness at our feet before we will raise our eyes
to Heaven?

The American people know we are in a moral crisis. According to a poll
conducted by Pew Research, eighty percent believe immorality is our
greatest problem as a nation. 12 But our leaders don’t seem to
comprehend what is happening. It’s time we all pulled together —
Americans of every political party and religious faith — to recover a
sense of what God wants us to do for our nation.

Let’s begin by giving priority to our children. In days gone by, the
culture acted to shield them from harmful images and exploitation. Now
it’s open season for even the youngest among us. Let’s put the welfare
of our boys and girls ahead of our own convenience and teach them the
difference between right and wrong. They need to hear that God is the
author of their rights and liberties. Let’s teach them that He loves
them and holds them to a high level of moral accountability.

Let’s do everything in our power to reverse the blight of violence and
lust that has become so pervasive across this land. Let’s demand that
the entertainment moguls stop producing moral pollutants. Let’s
recapture from the courts that system of self-rule that traditionally
allowed Americans to debate their deepest differences openly and reach
workable solutions together. Radical individualism is destroying us! The
creed that proclaims, “If it feels good, do it!” has filled too many
hospitals with drug overdosed teenagers, too many prison cells with
fatherless youth, too many caskets with slain young people, and too many
tears for bewildered parents..

Let’s vow together today to set for our children the highest standards
of ethics and morality and to protect them, as much as possible, from
evil and death. America can’t be perfect, but it can be better — much
better. To surrender to evil is to yield to the despair that leads to
death. We must be bold enough to draw a line in the sand. We may have to
endure some name-calling, harassment, and lawsuits for it, but as the
good people of Jonesboro know, that isn’t the worst thing that can
happen.

On May 7, America observed what the Congress of the United States has
designated as the National Day of Prayer. That emphasis should occur not
just once each Spring but throughout the year, as we ask the Father to
heal our land. We must also pledge ourselves anew to the principles that
have made this nation great: hard work, sexual restraint, a commitment
to family, a rejection of violence, and reliance upon the hand of Divine
Providence.

By this effort we can begin to atone for the blood of the innocents that
stains our streets and neighborhoods. We can start to restore the
qualities that prompted Abraham Lincoln to call us an “almost chosen
people.” 13 We can approach again the throne of our Father, seek His
face, humble ourselves and pray, and know that He will hear from Heaven
and heal our land. If you agree, write and let us know.

Let’s make America a “shining city upon a hill” once more. If we fail,
we need not ask for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for our beloved
nation.

James C. Dobson, Ph.D Gary Bauer
President President
Focus on the Family Family Research Council

* * *
We deeply appreciate your commitment to the values and ideals expressed
in this commentary. I believe millions of Americans agree with us on
these moral issues. Let’s not lose our nerve at this critical time in
the history of this great land.

God’s blessings to each of you.

Sincerely,

James C. Dobson, Ph.D.
President

P.S. If you would like to place this commentary in your local newspaper
or magazine, please call Focus on the Family at 1-800-A-FAMILY.
Camera-ready copies are available upon request. And if you can help
support this project and our other efforts to defend traditional moral
values, your assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Endnotes:
1 Sonia Nazari, “Wrong Turn Ends in Deadly Gang Ambush; Violence: Child,
3, Dies. Two Others Hurt as Youths Block Car’s Escape from Dead-End
Street and Open Fire,” Los Angeles Times, September 18, 1995, p. 1A.
2 David Gibson, “Teens Accused in Death of Baby; Infant Beaten After
Delivery,” Bergen Record, November 17, 1996, p. A1.
3 Laurie Goodstein, “Of Birth and Death and the Prom; Three of Life’s
Landmarks Converge as Teen Delivers, Abandons Baby at Dance,” Washington
Post, June 10, 1997, p. A3.
4 “Pearl, Mississippi School Officials Hold Press Conference Following
Shooting Spree by Luke Woodham,” CNN, October 2, 1997.
5 “Michael Carneal Accused of Killing Classmates in Kentucky,” CNN,
December 2, 1997.
6 “2 Students Are Shot at Arkansas School,” Associated Press, December
16, 1997
7 Jay Jordan, “Texas Teen ‘Vampires’ Go On Rampage,” Associated Press,
March 6, 1998.
8 “Police Say Student Attacked Teacher,” Associated Press, April 8,
1998.
9 “Indianapolis Cops to Search Kids,” Associated Press, April 8, 1998.
10 “Teens Accused of Raping Girl,” Associated Press, April 12, 1998.
11 John Schwartz, “2 Boys Charged with Murder; Arkansas Ambush Suspects
are Friends, 11 and 13,” Washington Post, March 26, 1998, p. A1.
12 Documentation coming from Chuck Donavan, FRC
13 Address to the New Jersey State Senate, Trenton, New Jersey, February
21, 1861.
– ————————————————————————
This letter may be reproduced without change and in its entirety for
non-commercial purposes without prior permission from Focus on the
Family.
Copyright © 1998 Focus on the Family.
All rights reserved. International copyright secured.

– ——— End forwarded message ———-

_____________________________________________________________________
You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

——————————

From: “James”
Date: Mon, 26 May 2098 09:55:53 -0400
Subject: CAC_Mail: MALAYSIA

>>
> >>> article on “page 2 of 17 April 98 of The Straits Times”
> >>>says …
> >>>
> >>>GIVE UP YOUR FAITH AND GO TO JAIL
> >>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>
> >>>In brief, the article says that a new Bill is in its final stages of
> >>>drafting to curb the “problem” of Muslim converting to another
> >>>religion and the Proposed Bill is …
> >>>” MALAYSIA MUSLIMS WHO REJECT THEIR ISLAMIC FAITH MAY BE JAILED UP TO
> >>>THREE (3) YEARS !”
> >>>
> >>>I am not circulating this to invoke any resentment against the
> >>>government of Malaysia because I believe that my struggle is not
> >>>against flesh and blood but against the powers of this dark world
> >>>and against the spiritual forces of evil in the Heavenly realms
> >>>(Ephesians 6:12)
> >>>
> >>>My purpose of drafting this chain mail is to start up a wave of
> >>>prayer for the Muslims in particularly Malaysia. I wish to invoke,
> >>>in all born-again Christians, this burden to pray and fast for the
> >>>Christian Malays in Malaysia and all the mission work that is going
> >>>on among the Muslims.
> >>>
> >>>This Bill, if passed by the Malaysia Cabinet will set back Christian
> >>>Missionary Work among the Malaysia Muslims by a great extent and much
> >>>persecution will arise among the Christian Malays in Malaysian
> >>>Churches that have Malay congregations will be refused of their
> >>>license and even be forced to close down and go underground.
> >>>
> >>>As Paul urge Timothy, in the same manner I urge you, my fellow
> >>>brothers and sisters in Christ to start putting on your full armour
> >>>of God and start interceding for all the Saints of God (Malay
> >>>Christians and Missionaries) and particularly the Cabinet Leaders in
> >>>Malaysia.
> >>>
> >>>Paul wrote to Timothy, “I urge, then, first of all, that requests,
> >>>prayers, intercession and thanks giving be made for everyone – for
> >>>kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and
> >>>quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.” (1 Tim 2:1-2)
> >>>
> >>>As how the apostles, in conclusion, exhorted the Hebrews, in the same
> >>>way I beseech you, to “Remember those in prison as if you were
> >>>their fellow prisoners, and those who are mistreated as if you
> >>>yourselves were suffering.”
> >>>(Hebrews 13:3)
> >>>
> >>>Yours for the Christians in Malaysia,
> >>>Daniel Ng
> >>>
> >>>PS: Please help to create this prayer wave by mailing this to all the
> >>>Christians that you know and START PRAYING!
> >>>
> >>>< < < < < < < < < < < < < < >>>< < >>>> > > God’s words through your mouth is powerful. Dun believe? Read
> >>>on….
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak
> this
> >>>> > > word, behold, I WILL MAKE MY WORDS IN THY MOUTH FIRE, and
this
> >>>people
> >>>> > > wood, and it shall devour them.
> >>>> > > Jeremiah
> 5:14
> >>
> >>

——————————

From: “James”
Date: Mon, 26 May 2098 10:21:39 -0400
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: MALAYSIA

I know this might not pertain to many of you but most of the people I
associate with are not Asians and were educated in the States.

These are just FAQs.

FAQs

Q – Okay. Where is Malaysia?

A – It’s just next to Indonesia. Surrounded by Thailand, Vietnam,
Philippines and Singapore.

Q – Okay. If Malaysia is real, why then it’s seldom mentioned in the media?

A – Because there’s no wars, riots or coups happening there to report.
People in Malaysia are peaceful, loving, nice, and good-looking. However,
there’s plenty of discrimination against Muslims who accept Christ but this
will never make the worldwide news.

Malaysia is 60% Muslim and 5% Christian. The rest are Buddhist, Hindus and
others.

JTW

> >>> article on “page 2 of 17 April 98 of The Straits Times”
> >>>says …
> >>>
> >>>GIVE UP YOUR FAITH AND GO TO JAIL
> >>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>
> >>>In brief, the article says that a new Bill is in its final stages of
> >>>drafting to curb the “problem” of Muslim converting to another
> >>>religion and the Proposed Bill is …
> >>>” MALAYSIA MUSLIMS WHO REJECT THEIR ISLAMIC FAITH MAY BE JAILED UP TO
> >>>THREE (3) YEARS !”
> >>>
> >>>I am not circulating this to invoke any resentment against the
> >>>government of Malaysia because I believe that my struggle is not
> >>>against flesh and blood but against the powers of this dark world
> >>>and against the spiritual forces of evil in the Heavenly realms
> >>>(Ephesians 6:12)
> >>>
> >>>My purpose of drafting this chain mail is to start up a wave of
> >>>prayer for the Muslims in particularly Malaysia. I wish to invoke,
> >>>in all born-again Christians, this burden to pray and fast for the
> >>>Christian Malays in Malaysia and all the mission work that is going
> >>>on among the Muslims.
> >>>
> >>>This Bill, if passed by the Malaysia Cabinet will set back Christian
> >>>Missionary Work among the Malaysia Muslims by a great extent and much
> >>>persecution will arise among the Christian Malays in Malaysian
> >>>Churches that have Malay congregations will be refused of their
> >>>license and even be forced to close down and go underground.
> >>>
> >>>As Paul urge Timothy, in the same manner I urge you, my fellow
> >>>brothers and sisters in Christ to start putting on your full armour
> >>>of God and start interceding for all the Saints of God (Malay
> >>>Christians and Missionaries) and particularly the Cabinet Leaders in
> >>>Malaysia.
> >>>
> >>>Paul wrote to Timothy, “I urge, then, first of all, that requests,
> >>>prayers, intercession and thanks giving be made for everyone – for
> >>>kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and
> >>>quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.” (1 Tim 2:1-2)
> >>>
> >>>As how the apostles, in conclusion, exhorted the Hebrews, in the same
> >>>way I beseech you, to “Remember those in prison as if you were
> >>>their fellow prisoners, and those who are mistreated as if you
> >>>yourselves were suffering.”
> >>>(Hebrews 13:3)
> >>>
> >>>Yours for the Christians in Malaysia,
> >>>Daniel Ng
> >>>
> >>>PS: Please help to create this prayer wave by mailing this to all the
> >>>Christians that you know and START PRAYING!
> >>>
> >>>< < < < < < < < < < < < < < >>>< < >>>> > > God’s words through your mouth is powerful. Dun believe? Read
> >>>on….
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak
> this
> >>>> > > word, behold, I WILL MAKE MY WORDS IN THY MOUTH FIRE, and
this
> >>>people
> >>>> > > wood, and it shall devour them.
> >>>> > > Jeremiah
> 5:14
> >>
> >>

– —–Original Message—–
From: James
To: cac@emwave.net ; J Chang
Date: Monday, May 25, 1998 4:59 PM
Subject: CAC_Mail: MALAYSIA

>>>
>> >>> article on “page 2 of 17 April 98 of The Straits Times”
>> >>>says …
>> >>>
>> >>>GIVE UP YOUR FAITH AND GO TO JAIL
>> >>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >>>
>> >>>In brief, the article says that a new Bill is in its final stages of
>> >>>drafting to curb the “problem” of Muslim converting to another
>> >>>religion and the Proposed Bill is …
>> >>>” MALAYSIA MUSLIMS WHO REJECT THEIR ISLAMIC FAITH MAY BE JAILED UP TO
>> >>>THREE (3) YEARS !”
>> >>>
>> >>>I am not circulating this to invoke any resentment against the
>> >>>government of Malaysia because I believe that my struggle is not
>> >>>against flesh and blood but against the powers of this dark world
>> >>>and against the spiritual forces of evil in the Heavenly realms
>> >>>(Ephesians 6:12)
>> >>>
>> >>>My purpose of drafting this chain mail is to start up a wave of
>> >>>prayer for the Muslims in particularly Malaysia. I wish to invoke,
>> >>>in all born-again Christians, this burden to pray and fast for the
>> >>>Christian Malays in Malaysia and all the mission work that is going
>> >>>on among the Muslims.
>> >>>
>> >>>This Bill, if passed by the Malaysia Cabinet will set back Christian
>> >>>Missionary Work among the Malaysia Muslims by a great extent and much
>> >>>persecution will arise among the Christian Malays in Malaysian
>> >>>Churches that have Malay congregations will be refused of their
>> >>>license and even be forced to close down and go underground.
>> >>>
>> >>>As Paul urge Timothy, in the same manner I urge you, my fellow
>> >>>brothers and sisters in Christ to start putting on your full armour
>> >>>of God and start interceding for all the Saints of God (Malay
>> >>>Christians and Missionaries) and particularly the Cabinet Leaders in
>> >>>Malaysia.
>> >>>
>> >>>Paul wrote to Timothy, “I urge, then, first of all, that requests,
>> >>>prayers, intercession and thanks giving be made for everyone – for
>> >>>kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and
>> >>>quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.” (1 Tim 2:1-2)
>> >>>
>> >>>As how the apostles, in conclusion, exhorted the Hebrews, in the same
>> >>>way I beseech you, to “Remember those in prison as if you were
>> >>>their fellow prisoners, and those who are mistreated as if you
>> >>>yourselves were suffering.”
>> >>>(Hebrews 13:3)
>> >>>
>> >>>Yours for the Christians in Malaysia,
>> >>>Daniel Ng
>> >>>
>> >>>PS: Please help to create this prayer wave by mailing this to all the
>> >>>Christians that you know and START PRAYING!
>> >>>
>> >>>< < < < < < < < < < < < < < > >>>< < > >>>> > > God’s words through your mouth is powerful. Dun believe? Read
>> >>>on….
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak
>> this
>> >>>> > > word, behold, I WILL MAKE MY WORDS IN THY MOUTH FIRE, and
>this
>> >>>people
>> >>>> > > wood, and it shall devour them.
>> >>>> > > Jeremiah
>> 5:14
>> >>
>> >>

——————————

From: Justin Der
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:08:25 -0700
Subject: CAC_Mail: Research Assistance Request

Greetings! My name is Justin Der, and I am a second generation
Chinese-American Christian sophomore at Stanford University. This August I
have the opportunity to pursue a month-long independant research project,
and I would greatly appreciate advice and suggestions.

For several years now I have felt God’s calling to be a pastor, and I have a
very strong desire to know more about the field that I will be getting into
if I become a pastor, and also how I can best prepare myself.

I would like to investigate the following questions:
– – What will be the opportunities available to me in America when I become a
pastor? Will they be restricted to the Chinese-American church? Is there
an “Asian American” church, and will there be one in the future?
– – What will the Chinese-American church look like? What will its needs be?
What will it need of its pastor?

Originally from a suburb of St. Louis (home church = St. Louis Chinese
Gospel Church), I am planning to conduct my research from my grandparents’
townhouse in Chicago’s Chinatown. Regarding research methods, I can see
appropriate readings and interviews with pastors and the community as viable
methods to answer these questions. I would especially like to have as much
interaction with the local community as possible so that I might get a
glimpse of their perspectives and lives, and maybe even have opportunities
for evangelism.

About project details, the stipulations are that my project needs to be
sponsored by a Stanford faculty (I have already contacted a faculty member,
Gordon Chang, who would be willing to sponsor me) and I need to propose a
specific project design (including proposed plans for collection, analysis,
and interpretation of data, as well as a proposed budget). Financially, I
have already available to me a $1500 undergraduate research grant which may
be applied toward books and living and research expenses.

I would greatly appreciate any input regarding:
1- recommended readings, and how to attain them
2- suggestions for research methodology (the situation is pretty flexible)
3- suggestions on how my project can be useful to the believers
4- if you would be willing to serve as a mentor (who would give advice about
project design and presentation of findings)

Sincerely,
Justin Der
650-497-5549

Incidentally, my summer schedule is as follows:
June 11 – Finish school (research proposal must be submitted by this day)
June 21 – August 3 – Macau Outreach Team with Partners Int.
August 3 – August 11 – Spend time at home in St. Louis
August 11 – September 15 – Research in Chicago
September 20 – Return to Stanford

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 08:45:49 -0400
Subject: CAC_Mail: China Visit

Dear CACers:

FYI.

In Him,
J.Chang
– ————
FRC: Clinton Should Not Set Foot in Tiananmen Square Visit Bestows
Legitimacy
to Massacre, 34 National Leaders and Activists Say

WASHINGTON, May 20 /PRNewswire/ — In a letter to President Clinton
Wednesday,
an ideological cross section of conservative groups and human rights
activists
said that the President should change his plans to be officially
recognized in
Tiananmen Square during his scheduled June visit to China. By being
formally
received in the Square, he will “bestow legitimacy to the ground where
innocent blood was needlessly shed,” the letter said.

Family Research Council President Gary Bauer said Wednesday that “until
China’s regime expresses regret and releases those still imprisoned for
their
brave stand, Clinton’s visit to Tiananmen Square is a slap in the face to
the
courageous Chinese students who stood for freedom.” In a May 14 letter to
Speaker Newt Gingrich and Majority Leader Trent Lott, Bauer urged
Congress to
pass a resolution calling on the President to refrain from going to
Tiananmen
Square during his visit to China.

The letter was signed by the following groups and individuals: Gary Bauer
with
Family Research Council, Dr. James Dobson with Focus on the Family, Kerry
Kennedy Cuomo with Robert F. Kennedy Memorial Center for Human Rights,
Xiao
Qiang with Human Rights in China, Harry Wu with Laogai Research
Foundation,
Phyllis Schlafly with Eagle Forum, William Bennett with Empower America,
Jeff
Fiedler with the AFL-CI0, Chuck Colson with Prison Fellowship, Joseph
Kung
with Cardinal Kung Foundation, Steve Snyder with International Christian
Concern, Carmen Pate with Concerned Women for America, Nina Shea with
Freedom
House, Keith Fournier with Catholic Alliance, Steven McFarland with
Christian
Legal Society, Don Wildmon with American Family Association, Prof. Robert
George from Princeton University, Rev. Louis Sheldon with Traditional
Values
Coalition, Deal Hudson with Crisis magazine, and 15 state-based family
policy
councils.

(SOURCE: Family Research Council)

_____________________________________________________________________
You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:30:47 -0400
Subject: CAC_Mail: “The Religious Freedom Amendment; Bringing Prayer Back Into Schools”

Dear CACers:

FYI.

In Him,
J. Chang
– ————–
AFA ACTION ALERT 5/28/98

American Family Association <
Dr. Donald E. Wildmon, President
P.O. Drawer 2440
Tupelo, Mississippi 38803
Telephone 601/844-5036
Fax 601/844-9176
World Wide Web http://www.afa.net

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM AMENDMENT [HJ RES 78]; BRINGING PRAYER BACK INTO
SCHOOLS

June 4th will be the vote in the U.S. House on Congressman Istook's
Religious Freedom
Amendment which will return prayer to public schools and put religious
speech on the
same footing with nonreligious speech. Here is a copy of my letter sent
to every Member
of the U.S. House.

Dear Member of Congress:

On behalf of our president Donald Wildmon and our hundreds of thousands
of supporters,
I am writing to indicate our support for the Religious Freedom Amendment
sponsored by
Representative Ernest Istook of Oklahoma. We are deeply concerned about
the
restrictions that the United States Supreme Court has placed on our right
to religious
expression. Americans’ desire to keep God, our Creator, in all aspects of
our lives.
This is a desire, which conforms to that of our Founding Fathers and is
our right as
Americans. We believe that the Religious Freedom Amendment will restore
the original
intentions of our Founding Fathers.

We strongly urge you to vote in favor of the Religious Freedom Amendment.

Sincerely,

Patrick A. Trueman
Director of Governmental Affairs
American Family Association <
Washington, D.C. Office
_______________________________

CALLS AND E-MAILS TO HOUSE MEMBERS ARE URGENT!
Call The Capitol Switchboard Toll Free: 1-800-361-5222 or 202/224-3121

E-MAIL YOUR REPRESENTATIVE BY POINTING YOUR BROWSER:
http://www.house.gov/writerep/

FOR MORE INFORMATION ON THE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM AMENDMENT
http://www.religiousfreedom.house.gov/

________________________________

The U.S. House of Representatives will vote on a proposed religious
freedom
constitutional amendment on June 4th, Majority Whip Tom DeLay, (R-TX),
and Rep. Ernest
Istook, (R-OK), confirmed today. The vote will be on the Religious
Freedom Amendment
(RFA), also known as House Joint Resolution 78, sponsored by Congressman
Istook, with
over 150 co-sponsors.

The upcoming vote will be the first time in 27 years the U.S. House has
voted on a
proposed constitutional amendment to restore voluntary prayer in schools
and protect
religious freedom. The last vote was in 1971, on a measure forced to the
House floor by
petition.

"This vote will provide an opportunity for Members of the House to be put
on record as
supporters of religious freedoms and 'One nation under God. Today, our
schools are
filled with drugs and violence- it's time we made room for a little
prayer instead,"
said DeLay.

DeLay noted the only way to remedy more than three decades of court
decisions is to
clarify the original intent of the First Amendment.

"Even if we pass religious freedom legislation every year, the liberal
establishment
will petition the Supreme Court to overturn it – and they will most
likely succeed.
However, the Constitution provides another way for the American people to
re-establish
religious freedoms, that's through a Constitutional amendment."

The amendment has been a work in progress for nearly three years, and
Rep. Istook said
the final language strikes "a good Constitutional balance."

"The Religious Freedom Amendment is carefully crafted to protect
everyone's religious
rights – not merely the rights of those belonging to a 'majority
religion,' or a
'minority religion,' or even no religion at all," said Istook. "Like the
rest of the
Constitution, this is designed to protect the unalienable rights of all
Americans,
which our Founding Fathers recognized come from our 'Creator.'"

THE ACTUAL TEXT OF H.J. Res. 78 IS AS FOLLOWS:

"To secure the people's right to acknowledge God according to the
dictates of
conscience: Neither the United States nor any State shall establish any
official
religion, but the people's right to pray and to recognize their religious
beliefs,
heritage or traditions on public property, including schools, shall not
be infringed.
Neither the United States nor any state shall require any person to join
in prayer or
other religious activity, prescribe school prayers, discriminate against
religion, or
deny equal access to a benefit on account of religion."

THE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM AMENDMENT – WHAT IT DOES

The Religious Freedom Amendment (RFA) will correct 36 years of Supreme
Court decisions
which have warped the original plain and simple meaning of our religious
rights under
the First Amendment to the Constitution.

Here are highlights of what it will do:
For the first time, our Constitution will mention America's belief in
God. Every one
of our 50 states have an express reference to God within their state
Constitutions. The
Religious Freedom Amendment does so for the federal Constitution; it
echoes the words
in the Declaration of Independence, where our Founding Fathers wrote that
our
unalienable rights come not from government, but are an endowment from
our Creator.
Student-initiated and voluntary prayers could be voiced in public
schools, whether in
classrooms, school assemblies, graduations, sporting events, or other
occasions. Court
decisions restrict almost all school prayers; the minor exceptions are
usually limited
to clubs which gather before or after the school day, and even then only
with special
controls. The RFA does not permit teachers or any other agent of
government to
proselytize, or to dictate that any person must join in prayer, or to
prescribe what
prayer should be said.
The Ten Commandments could again be posted in public schools and other
public
buildings. The Supreme Court banned the Ten Commandments from school
buildings in 1980,
but the RFA directs that the people's religious beliefs, heritage and
traditions may
again be recognized on public property, including schools. (However, the
RFA expressly
maintains the prohibition on any official religion for America!) Holiday
displays such
as Nativity scenes and menorahs, and the singing of Christmas carols,
would be
protected on public property. The Supreme Court has made it difficult or
impossible to
recognize special occasions, and the threat of lawsuits has intimidated
schools to go
even farther than the Court has dictated. The RFA fixes this. Government
programs could
not use religion as an excuse to deny a benefit. There could be no direct
government
subsidy to any religion or church, but when government creates a program
that furthers
other purposes, it could not exclude any group because of their religious
affiliation.
For example, any government aid to non-public schools would have to
include families
who send their child to a church-affiliated school. As another example,
if private drug
treatment programs are funded, faith-based drug treatment programs could
not be
excluded.

====================================================
"Spreading Truth on the Information Superhighway"
AFA ACTION ALERT
Buddy Smith, Editor
Subscribe/Unsubscribe by contacting: afalert@afa.net
mailto:afalert@afa.net
Please tell a friend about the AFA ACTION ALERT

– ——— End forwarded message ———-

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

——————————

From: The Yees
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 06:09:22 +0000
Subject: CAC_Mail: NIV, NLT, CEV . . .

Picking up on the NIV thread from a while back . . .

My church is looking for a new pew Bible. Frontrunners
are the Contemporary English Version (American Bible Society,
1995), and the New Living Translation (Tyndale, 1996).
So far I’ve found both to be about equally delighful and
equally infuriating. The delight is in the very easy
comprehension. The infuriation is in the degree of
interpretation with the text, whether or not I agree with
any particular interpretation. Both take “dynamic equivalence”
much further than the NIV. For instance, Rom. 12:1:

And so, dear Christian friends [fn: “brothers”] I plead with
you to give your bodies to God. Let them be a living and holy
sacrifice–the kind he will accept. When you think of what he
has done for you, is this too much to ask? (NLT)

Dear friends, God is good. So I beg you to offer your bodies
to him as a living sacrifice, pure and pleasing. That’s the
most sensible way to serve God. (CEV)

(Note that “logikos” is notoriously difficult to translate–
“reasonable” [KJV, NRSV fn] “spiritual” [NIV, NASB, NRSV, NCV]
– –see BAG for the scoop. NLT seems to skip thow whole concept;
CEV turns it into “sensible.”)

For those who just can’t imagine that “dikaiosune” could helpfully
be translated as “right with God” rather than a technical term
like “righteous” the NLT and CEV will be a non-starter. (BTW, both
have fine evangelical pedigrees, whatever that says about the
trajectory of contemporary evangelicalism.) I think both are worth
considering for anyone who is serious about reaching post-modern
unchurched folks (as I am). However, if I do end up preaching
from one of these, I will probably feel compelled to cross-check
other translations and the Greek more often just so I know what’s
going on.

If anyone has any more info about the “New English Translation”
mentioned in this list a while back, I’d love to hear about it.
I was desperately depressed when the NIV boys cancelled their
upcoming major revision, as it was my clear first choice for
the future. (O.K., I don’t feel like getting into the gender-
neutral stuff right now, but if someone really wants to and will
promise to be nice, I’m game. Hint: I don’t think there is an
obviously satisfactory approach to be had at the present time.)

Tangentially related . . .

On yesterday’s (5/29) radio broadcast of _Marketplace_ (on public
radio) there was a feature story on marketing Bibles, especially
the explosion of “niche” Bibles in the past 20 years. A Zondervan
exec was quoted saying they’d like each Xn to go through 20 Bibles
in a lifetime (Children’s, Pre Teen, Teen, College, Singles,
Mom’s/Dad’s, Recovery . . .). As they noted, this is a big change
from the past when one expected to own and use the same black
leather KJV for a lifetime. You can listen to the whole thing at
audible.com/marketplace (though you might have to do some
downloading and paying).

“Where would you draw the line?”
“I don’t think we’ll ever do a ‘Power Rangers Bible’.”
[but how about an Asian-American Heritage Bible?]

Russell Yee <- old enough to remember when the NIV was way new and cool
Oakland

——————————

From: Gdaht@aol.com
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 12:49:18 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: Humor (partic for the bachelors among us)–G

In a message dated 98-05-31 12:04:35 EDT, paulpowers@ibm.net writes:

< Why Russia, You Ask?

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>>

——————————

From: SKYLeung@aol.com
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 23:28:29 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NIV, NLT, CEV . . .

Brother Russell,

Please check out: http://www.netbible.org/docs/about/netbible.htm for more
info on the NET.

Sola Scriptura,
Stephen

——————————

From: Rlfong@aol.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 02:24:04 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Humor (partic for the bachelors among us)–G

In a message dated 5/31/1998 9:50:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Gdaht@aol.com
writes:

> MARRY THE “RUSSIAN WOMAN” OF YOUR DREAMS IN 90 DAYS!

********* REPLY SEPARATOR ************

Humor NOT! Spam YES! Kinda exploitative?

Ronnie Fong
Fremont, CA

— End —

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