Posts in April 1998

To: cac@emwave.net

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From: “GE Liang”
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:29:28 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: soon expiring Divine offer

Dear Antti,

I am still unable to understand your answer to question (4). Is there something
in particular that Finlayson or Penn wrote/said that would englighten me as to why
the patent will directly benefit the lost and the persecuted.

Humbly,
G.E.

>> 4) This FYK technology is somehow of benefit to the Christian
>> community & to the cause of evangelism.
>Yes, I received it from the Lord in sleep and I am receiving divine
>help. It is related to the salvation of distressed and/or persecuted
>people. Let me briefly refer to James Finlayson, William Penn etc…

>s confirmado el lugar en el que se llevará a cabo la fiesta el punto de reunion
es en la Iglesia a las 14:30 (a ver si asi llegan a tiempo)
– – Te conviene llegar a la Iglesia. Recuerda que si no traes regalo Dios lo perdona
todo… ¡Rina no!.

Bueno pues yo me despido espero la proxima vez me consultes antes de mailear tus
“invitaciones”

CELULA BALLENA POR QUE YA TE A PESCADITOS

Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com

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From: James Wong
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 13:49:27 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Tracts

Left handed tracts/literature

If you are interested in getting left handed tracts for evangelism
purposes, please write me at this address.

Most tracts for evangelism are made for right handed people but when a
left handed person is reading it, he/she has a more difficult time
understanding the message.

Now, you can assist left handed people to understand the gospel by using
these specially made tracts.

James

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From: Gdaht
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:56:43 EST
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Tracts

J, Have you seen the new poetry tracts for lefthanded people? G

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From: Antti Lange
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 04:04:23 +0300
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: expiring FKF offer

GE Liang wrote:
> I am still unable to understand your answer to question (4).
> >> 4) This FKF technology is somehow of benefit to the Christian
> >> community & to the cause of evangelism?
> >Yes, I received it from the Lord in sleep….
Thanks for asking! Jesus said that there will be night when nobody will
be able to do the gospel work. In fact, the night is already there in
many places. It was there in Russia during the Soviet era. Let me just
mention Mr. Juho Punkka who preached the gospel in Siberia. He had to go
hiding into a cave in order to save his life. He was finally caught and
sentenced to death by freezing in the cold floor-water of an outdoor
jail box. However, the Lord made a miracle and kept his body temperature
normal over the long night that he was locked in. Brother Juho had a
good night’s sleep himself. A revival broke in the prison camp.
There are courageous martyrs but they are too often wiped out. A deep
spiritual darkness would then follow as it happened to Japan in the 16
hundred. People must obey their cruel government because their families
living is at stake.
Fortunately, the picture does not need to to be so depressing. The Lord
gave e.g. the important high-tech invention of FKF to the hands of His
own people!

> Is there something in particular that Finlayson or Penn
> wrote/said that would englighten me as to why
> the patent will directly benefit the lost and the persecuted.
William Penn’s works and writings should be known well in USA. In fact,
he had a so-called patent of the colony that was later named
Pennsylvania. James Finlayson of Scotland set the human right conditions
before the emperor of Russia in year 1817 before he started his divine
high-tech mission in Finland.
The famous Kalman Filtering (KF) method is needed for all reliable
automation that is based on microprocessor technology. The Fast Kalman
Filter (FKF) is the fastest known method of computing Kalman Filters for
most reliable Guidance, Navigation & Control systems (GN&C). Nobody can
market such high-tech products in the lucrative western markets without
my permission as I am the patent holder by God’s grace. However, if we
Christians do not have any influence in a country where the products are
being manufactured then I cannot see possibilities to enforce the human
rights therein on my own.

The time of acquiring the patent rights is expiring for many countries
such as China by the 15th of May 1998. My small family resources do not
suffice here at all. Thus, I feel it necessary to challenge Draper
Laboratory that represents the highest know-how of ULTRA-RELIABLE GN&C
systems in the world to step forward, please, and say something with
regard to my bold statements on FKF. The Charles Stark Draper Laboratory
may be subsidised by the US government.

Sincerely yours in Jesus Christ,
Antti Lange
The inventor of FKF
http://fkf.net

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From: James Wong
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 22:04:53 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Tracts

Gdaht wrote:
>
> J, Have you seen the new poetry tracts for lefthanded people? G

Yes. It was published recently.

Also, due to a good response to the left handed tracts, I’d like to make
available my recently produced left handed Bible study materials for
Chinese Americans.

A large number of Chinese Americans were born left handed but due to
cultural orientation and parental upbringing, they ended up right
handed. This, however, doesn’t change their reading preferences and
limitations.

They need left handed Bible study materials to help them with
memorization of certain difficult passages in Revelation and more in
depth understanding of the Old Testament. Please write to request these
specially produced literature for left handed Chinese Americans.

James

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From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:29:07 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Tracts

What are the differences between lefthanded tracts and Bible study
materials? Could you describe their content and form a little bit? I
as a righthanded person simply cannot imagine what these tracts and
materials look like. Really curious.

Fenggang
– —————————————————————
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

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From: Gdaht
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:41:46 EST
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Tracts

Fenggang, ff. is an example of a lefthanded poetry tract, written
4/1/98–just for the occasion.

=====

heartfelt & trueblood

heartfelt he was staggered
trueblood tossed him out
at heart he was a braggert with
a lust for hate and doubt
curlin’ in a corner
fadin’ in the light
heartfelt fangs unfurled,
bit down outa sight
the werewolf howled vultures
and th’ snake began to crawl
evil palpitating
under pressure from th’ fall
iniquity inspired
muscle pumped me up
trueblood’s office called to say
your poison heart’s corrupt
a deadly game inside
but outside hear a knock
i stood there barefoot choked with pride
couldn’t find ma socks
the knocks came at th’ front door
but somewhere ’round in back
someone saw old trueblood healin’
heartfelt’s heart attack
empires started shakin’
rattlin’ like th’ snake
wind blown like tornados
whippin’ up th’ lake
trueblood found me keelin’
over in the yard
threw me cross his shoulders
torching heartfelt’s house of cards
the siren sounds grew distant
trueblood winged me home
like chariots of fire
outa dante’s danger zone
nice nurses quite angelic
recovering the sky
from hospitals a relic
from the game where people die
singin’: “trueblood operated
he alone was etherized
then rose up from YOUR table
wonders if you realized”
yep, it’s time to get excited
true love’s in the air
th’ barefoot guy’s delighted with
th’ heart trueblood repaired

g

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From: Gdaht
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:00:47 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: marchin’

I apologize to whomever the 4/1 poem offends; let me know about if it will
help.

marchin’ (to a different dummer, cp. last stanza) is to Bro. Bill L.(thx for
the book) and to wish you all happy Easter–g

===

Luke 23:47: “..The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God..”

flow hot tears hard as nails are from iron hammers pounded
pain the spirit in you throbbing through the stains of cain resounded
in words one can not realize your broken voice conceives
our Father turned his back on you or leaves some where to grieve

torn the fabric, rent the curtain, terminates the evil stage
able actors sworn to kill you with the spirit of the age
humanize inhuman savageness, despise the lukan language
while you’re agonizing over me and multitudes in anguish

i look up to love you back but feel low down as you groan
like fishermen gone bottom fishin’ stumblin’ on the stones
th’ emperor not too distant riding steel wheels conceals
in a cruel, close assistant named: whatever caesar feels

pirate priests sport dark black glasses, spy with blue eyes full of logs
occult confusing culture like the sin in synagogues
‘love your neighbor as yourself’ nigh but from riddled steeples rings
the hollow bell of nagasaki tolling out nanjing

john the baptist burnt the belfry, was rewarded for his tact
what’s peace enforced by peacekeepers computer launched and tracked?
the bar associations brew where prophecy belongs
peace the dove above the jordan broods over the head of john

in the God of gods confiding, in the wild still he cries
while you suffer here forsaken, crash the gates of paradise
in trouble on this weathered tree in jet streams blue and black
in white pangs flashin’ from the sky, by angels holding back

as waves of death demised reverb through calm beneath the swells
truth riding out the scourge like dead blue oceans overwhelms
thick rivers flowing crimson from th’ tides of worthy blood
th’ desolation rinsing by niagra falls of love

far farther than the west is (where th’ waterless are drenched)
from the east all sins are vanquished in a mariana trench
light light years from the farthest star th’ furthest from the south
north of space and time beyond forever not found out

why i like trees applauding thee the friendly future forged
hear drums roll slow and steady praises through th’ soul’s fjords
touched echoes granite silent stone by love and by my Lord…

c. 1998 go

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From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:24:16 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: great new book!

Hot off the presses!

_Following Jesus Without Dishonoring Your Parents_

written by an Asian American team:

Jeanette Yep, coordinator, with Peter Cha, Susan Cho Van Riesen, Greg
Jao, and Paul Tokunaga (InterVarsity Press)

You can order your copy through Amazon.com, from the link at Resources
for Asian Americans at the CAC web site:
http://www.aamdomain.com/cac/resource.htm

this is perhaps the first book to really wrestle with the Asian
cultural aspects and the Christian faith; I’m avidly reading it now, as
I just received a copy in my hands from Catalyst 98 East Coast
conference.

trivia: 3 out of 5 on the writing team are right here on CAC!
– —
*

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From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:29:21 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Pro-life Action Needed

Dear CACers:

FYI. Your input is welcomed even if you’re not a New Yorker.

In Him,
J. Chang
– ————-
Taken from:

NYS Right to Life Party
ACTION IS NEEDED NOW!

A stunning Quinnipiac College poll released March 26 showed
that New Yorkers, by a 77-19 percent margin, say late term or so-called
partial-birth abortions should not be permitted, except to save the life
of the mother.

In line with public sentiment, efforts are underway in
the New York Legislature to pass a ban on that procedure. The Senate is
expected to pass it easily, and Governor Pataki has promised to sign it.
The problem is in the Assembly. Speaker Sheldon Silver seems to have
recently
stiffened his resolve to prevent any such bill from being voted on this
year or any other year. Accordingly, it is expected that all possible
arcane
procedural roadblocks will be thrown up to delay and deny the will of
the
people. Now is the time for voters to speak out!

The bill is being held in the Health Committee, dominated
by pro-choicers. In order to get the bill on the floor, a motion
to discharge must be filed. On March 9, Assemblyman Manning officially
did so. He requested that the entire Assembly be asked to remove A8875
from
the Health Committee and to permit debate and a floor vote on a
partial-birth
abortion ban. Seventy-six votes are needed just to get the bill on the
floor. Then another vote will be necessary on the ban itself.

According to Assembly rules, Speaker Silver must now print
a Motion to Discharge Calendar before April 14 — two days after
Easter Sunday and three days after the beginning of Passover. The last
working
day probably will be Good Friday, the 10th. There are a number of
Assemblymen
who intend to vote in favor of a ban if it reaches the floor, but they
are
not willing to co-sponsor or vote for discharge because of fear of
Speaker
Silver. Why is Silver opposed?

Perhaps, because if a ban is passed with a Republican
chief sponsor and signed by a Republican Governor, it will enhance the
image
of the GOP in the eyes of the electorate. More important, some pro-choice
Assemblymen will vote against the ban, and may lose their seats because
of it, thus reducing the large present Democratic majority. And there are
some Democrats who favor the ban but will co-operate with Silver to stall
the bill so that their pro-choice colleagues will not be put
on the spot. In other words, politics may be more important than justice,
or even the will of the people. Is anyone surprised?

Now is the time for pro-lifers to contact their Assemblymen — and
Speaker
Sheldon Silver. Every phone book lists local officials in the blue pages,
with their addresses and phone numbers. Speaker Silver’s Albany number is
518-455-3791.

Email “Sheldon Silver” at:

Ask that the partial-birth abortion ban be allowed to come for a vote
before
the Assembly & that it would passed.

Phone them — write to them — and urge them to vote to discharge
the bill banning partial-birth abortions sponsored by Assemblyman Patrick
Manning, #A08875. And hurry. The time for action expires on Good Friday,
April 10.

To find your local assembly representative please go to the
NY State Assembly Members Directory at:

Please forward to other pro-lifers, especially New Yorkers.

– ——— End forwarded message ———-

_____________________________________________________________________
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From: Gdaht
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:58:15 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: fyi–g


http://www.korealink.com/public/ircers/messages/748.shtml

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From: douglew@juno.com (Douglas P Lew)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:13:18 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Phone

Does anybody know whether you can count your monthly personal phone
expense as part as your parsonage allowance.

I know you can count utilities so I’m wondering about the phone expense
for the basic rate of having a phone in the house. Or if you moved
into a house and had to get a phone line installed couldn’t you at least
count this into your parsonage expense?

_____________________________________________________________________
You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

——————————

From: DebbieOney
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 05:53:39 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease and CJD Voice

Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (CJD) is a horrendious fatal brain-deteriorating
disease for which there is no treatment or cure. It is caused by a prion.
One strain of CJD is linked to Mad Cow Disease in England. This strain has
not been found in North America. In North American people get CJD through 3
means: familial (genetic), spontaneous (don’t know how) and iatrogenic
(through a medical procedure).

CJD victims’ first symptoms are often visual, coordination and psychological
problems Also, some people, such as those who received human pituitary
growth hormone which puts them at higher risk of getting CJD, have to live
with CJD hanging over their heads. People in either of these groups and their
families may find themselves in a mental health professional’s office. CJD
patients often die at home and therefore have home health services.

CJD is more common than reported. In one study of Alzheimer patients 13% when
autopsied were found to really have CJD.

Also, since normal sterilization methods do no kill the CJD infectious agent
and , it can therefore be spread by surgical instruments, it is more of a
danger to public health than mere number of cases would suggest.. And, while
the question of whether iit is spread by blood is controversial, blood
products such as human albumin are used in vaccines such as Measles-Mumps-
Rubella, rabies and allergy shots and it is used in InVitro Fertilization
(IVF) cultures.

CJD Voice is an e-mail discussion group. Most members have lost a loved one
to CJD or currently have a loved one with CJD. It provides support to these
people as well tries to increase public awareness of CJD and tries to make CJD
a reportable disease and to increase funding for CJD research so treatments
and
a cure can be found The CJD webpage has a message board, chat room, links to
other websites with CJD information, a CJD webring and a list of CJD
researchers accepting financial contributions.

The address for the CJD Voice Webpage is
http://members.aol.com/larmstr853/cjdvoice/cjdvoice.htm

Please feel free to visit our website and to refer other people to it.
Please have them contact Liz Armstrong at LArmstr853@aol.com about getting on
the e-mail list.

Thank you.

Deborah Schechter

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From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 23:06:58 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: When I am a Christian

Hi:

Is this true? The natural man sins because he is by nature a sinner. He
does not become a sinner because he sins. Therefore he is incapable of
doing any good that is acceptable to God. This is confirmed by the by
Isaiah when he writes that the righteousness of man is as filthy rags
before God. Also when Jesus taught that a rotten tree cannot produce
good fruits.

Is the Christian still sinful, a sinner? Then how can God ask the
Christian to behave Christ-like if he is not already Christ-like? How
can a Christian be holy if he is not already holy? Is the Christian a
sinner, sinful?

Jennifer forwarded this poem:

> > WHEN I SAY I AM A CHRISTIAN
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I’m not shouting “I am saved”
> > I’m whispering “I get lost!”
> > “That is why I chose this way.”
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I don’t speak of this with pride.
> > I’m confessing that I stumble
> > and need someone to be my guide.
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I’m not trying to be strong.
> > I’m professing that I’m weak
> > and pray for strength to carry on.
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I’m not bragging of success.
> > I’m admitting I have failed
> > and cannot ever pay the debt.
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I’m not claiming to be perfect,
> > my flaws are too visible
> > but God believes I’m worth it.
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I still feel the sting of pain
> > I have my share of heartaches
> > which is why I seek His name.
> >
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I do not wish to judge.
> > I have no authority.
> > I only know I’m loved.

I believe this poem does not reflect what is truly a Christian. God has
done so much in the Christian, why does one view him so inadequate, weak?
The Christian is a glorious being. Isn’t he called a “saint?”, a child
of the Almighty God?, “made the righteous of God?”, “complete in Christ?”

Ben

I have just returned from a 2 months trip visiting all my children and
grandchildren; 2 new grandchildren in Jan. and Feb. Praise be to God for
His abounding grace.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

——————————

From: Antti Lange
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:07:45 +0300
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: When I am a Christian

Dear Ben,
Benjamin C Wong wrote:
> Is this true? The natural man sins because
> he is by nature a sinner.
Yes.

> Is the Christian still sinful, a sinner?
Yes.

> Jennifer forwarded this poem:
> > > I’m not shouting “I am saved”
> > > I’m whispering “I get lost!”
> > > “That is why I chose this way.”
That is how I feel and take it.

> I believe this poem does not reflect
> what is truly a Christian.
You are right, Ben. It tells only what he
feels before he remembers again and again:
“I am dead in Christ!”

> God has done so much in the Christian, why does
> one view him so inadequate, weak?
Well, just to remember that He died on Golgatha for him.

> The Christian is a glorious being.
Hallelujah! Praise Him for the glory!

Antti

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From: AsianPK
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:15:30 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: Promise Keepers Update

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,

Yesterday PK announced they will recall all 300+ PK staff who had been laid
off as of 4/1/98 (including me) next Thursday, 4/16. Basically, we missed 1/2
month or one paycheck. We praise the Lord for His incredible provision of
support in prayer and giving from churches and individuals from all over the
country that has kept this recent layoff to such a short period of time.

However, PK’s financial picture is far from clear for the remaining of 1998
and beyond. Last fall PK decided to switch from a fee based ministry
(charging men $60 to attend stadium events) to a complete faith ministry
depending on free will offerings. Conference fees had represented about 75%
of PK’s revenue base.

Over the past 3-4 months many churches and individuals responded to PK’s
desperate financial needs. It is uncertain how sustained this giving will be
in the future. Also, PK plans a major staff restructuring later this fall
which will reduce the total staff numbers significantly. No one’s current job
within PK is assured of remaining, including mine.

I am encouraged by the ongoing plans to conduct conferences designed for Asian
American men. This year’s conference in Northern California will be hosted
under MESA, Ministries for English Speaking Asians, a para church ministry I
started back in 1988. It will be held at the same church as the first AA
Men’s conference this past August, the Redwood Chapel in Castro Valley on
October 24, 1998. The cost will be $35 which includes lunch. Discounts are
available for “special guests,” men who are currently not attending any church
on a regular basis as well as for early registration and full time students.
It is our prayer that at least 200 “special guests” will attend. Please
contact me for more info (510.278.1000 or email me at AsianPK@aol.com). About
800 men attended this past August and we are anticipating at least 1,200-1,500
this year (max capacity is 2,000). Men are already beginning to register.

PK is hosting 19 stadium and arena events in 1998. It is imperative that men
who plan to attend these events register with PK as soon as possible! Even
though there is no fee, registration is crucial to help PK plan and prepare
for each event! To register, please call 800.888.7595.
Detroit, Mich Pontiac Silverdome 5/15-16
Little Rock, Ark War Memorial Stadium 5/22-23
Los Angeles, CA LA Coliseum 5/22-23
Fresno, CA Bulldog Stadium 6/5-6
St. Petersburg, Fla Tropicana Field 6/12-13
Knoxville, Tenn Thompson-Boling Arena 6/12-13
Columbia, MO Faurot Mem Stadium 6/19-20
Philadelphia, Penn Veterans Stadium 7/10-11
Minneapolis, Minn Metrodome 7/17-18
Indianapolis, Ind RCA Dome 7/24-25
Eugene, Ore Autzen Stadium 7/31-8/1
Omaha, Neb Civic Auditorium 8/7-8
Grand Rapids, Mich Van Andel Arena 8/14-15
Houston, Tex Astrodome 8/21-22
Tucson, Ariz Convention Center 9/18-19
Milwaukee, Wis Bradley Center 9/25-26
Columbia, S.C. William-Brice Stadium 10/2-3
Colorado Spings, Colo Pikes Peak Speedway 10/9-10
Sacramento, CA Arco Arena 10/9-10

Thanks for your ongoing prayers for PK as well as for me as I continue to
minister among Asian American men and churches.

Louis Lee
PK National Cultural Relations Manager for Asian Americans

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 05:33:54 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: I am a Christian

Dear Antti;

You said, “yes” when I asked, “is a Christian sinful, is he a sinner?”

Yet you also believe that the Christian is a glorious being. How is he
both?

Can a Christian behave Christ-like if he is a sinner? Remember that a
rotten tree cannot produce good fruits.

Where does the Bible teach that the Christian is sinful / a sinner?

Thanks for responding.

Yours for stimulations,

Ben

Dear L. Dowell,

Thanks for your response.

Yes, the Christian is a new creation in Christ. How glorious is that new
creation? Lets take the effort to describe the child of God.

Your evaluation is appreciated when you wrote, “There appear to be many
Christians who catch hold of an idea, because to them it “sounds good”.
And, because via the particular words, thoughts, ideas, they believe they
– — themselves — sound Godly and humble.” …”One positive aspect, I
think, is that it keeps me prayerful before the Lord to seek His answers
in the midst of the
many different “Christian” ideas being put forth… ‘

That we may stimulate each other,

Ben

_____________________________________________________________________
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——————————

From: Antti Lange
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:41:44 +0300
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: I am a Christian

Dear Ben,
Benjamin C Wong wrote:
> You said, “yes” when I asked, “is a
> Christian sinful, is he a sinner?”
That is the truth of me. Fortunately,
Jesus died for me so that by faith the
sinner in me is dead with Him. I must
keep the sinner in me dead by my faith
– – sometimes it is not that easy.
In any case it is easier to be than
not to be (as a Christian).

> Yet you also believe that the
> Christian is a glorious being.
When I manage to walk with Him in faith
I am a glorious Christian. Otherwise not!

> How is the Christian both?
He cannot be both at the same time but
he is able to choose again between good
and evil after Adam’s fall. This ability
to choose is the glorious image of God
in us. Jesus came to restore it in every
one who accepts/receives Him again and
again (John 3:16).

> Can a Christian behave Christ-like
> if he is a sinner?
Yes if he keeps the sinner dead in him.

> Remember that a rotten tree cannot
> produce good fruits.
That is why the rotten tree must die.

> Where does the Bible teach that
> the Christian is sinful / a sinner?
Romans 7:21-25.

> Yours for stimulations,
You probably knew what I am saying.
Praise the Lord for this Easter!

With love,
Antti

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:27:16 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: I am a Christian

Benjamin:

The Reformers [or it might’ve just been RC Sproul’s thoughts] had a
great phrase that puts the status of the Christian in right
balanced perspective: “simuls eustus et peccador”, which translated is:
both [simultaneously] righteous and sinner [at the same time].

In summary, the righteousness of Christ has been given [imputed] to the
believer who puts faith in God thru Christ (Romans 4:5), and it is that
gift of eternal life and regeneration that makes the believer holy and
“glorious”, and that will be fully made reality later (1 Cor. 15).

Now we as believers now often sin (Romans 7) and need to confess those
regularly before the Lord (1 John 1:9), yet as we walk by faith and
with Christ, we can bear good fruit (John 15), but we cannot do that
apart from Christ. That is, we do not produce good fruits on our own
as Christians, it is because of Christ’s working in and thru our lives
that we produce good fruit.

I’m not sure how much you would like to study this matter, for it have
implication for how we live our Christian life, how we understand the
grace of God, how we do ministry, and more. I believe an excellent
treatise can by found here:

The Doctrine of Justification by Faith, Through the Imputation of the
Righteousness of Christ; Explained, Confirmed, and Vindicated, by John
Owen *web site
at http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/ipb-e/epl-owjust.html

DJ

On 11 Apr 98 at 5:33, Benjamin C Wong wrote:

> Can a Christian behave Christ-like if he is a sinner? Remember that a
> rotten tree cannot produce good fruits.
– —
*

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:25:50 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: ATF Conference 5/14-15

ASIAN TASK FORCE Conference
May 14-15 1998

Church on the Way
Van Nuys, California

Purpose for this conference:
* Discern, identify and break the strongholds
which blind the eyes of Asian peoples to the Gospel and weaken the
Church- and use these results to develop action plans to be implemented
in our churches, communities, cities, and nations to reap the harvest!

* Establish a relationship and network among the Asian ministries, so
we’ll be able to share resources and work as one Body to reach the lost
with the Gospel.

Speakers to include:
* Cindy Jacobs- coordinator o fthe U.S. Spiritual Warfare Network
* John Dawson- author of “Healing America’s Wounds”
* Dennis Balcombe- pastor of Revival Christian Church (Hong Kong)
* Che Ahn- President of Harvest Intl Ministry (Pasadena CA)
* Siang-Yang Tan- Sr. Pastor of First Evangelical Church (Glendale CA) *
Gideon Chiu- Sr. Pastor of Church of Zion (Vancouver) * Kay Hiramine-
Asst. Coordinator of U.S. Spiritual Warfare Network * Doug Stringer-
Founder & President of Turning Point Ministries Intl

Who should attend?
* Pastors, ministers, and intercessors of Asian congregations or
ministries in the U.S. or Canada.

* Asian and non-Asian ministers or missionaries whose primary ministry
is to Asian people groups, whether those who have immigrated to North
America or still at their home countries.

Paul Tan- Coordinator Asian Task Force U.S. SWN writes:

At the conclusion of our first ATF Summit in January of 1998, the ATF
Host Committee and I were humbled by what the Lord has birthed into the
U.S. SWN Asian Task Force.

As Asians living in North America sometimes it is still hard for us to
shed that “visitor” mentaility. Why are we here? Why as God placed us
half a world away from our native countries? I believe God is calling
the Asian Christians in North America to become a blessing to this land.

It is time for us to network together and share our resources. He has
placed us here strategically to reach four different groups of people
with the Gospel: – the “first” generation Asian-Americans – the “second”
and subsequent generations of Asian-Americans – the people of this
country which now we call home – the people in Asian countries

This will not just be another “conference.” We are praying not only for
discernment and revelation, but also for the impartation of the Holy
Spirit to equip us in developing strategic and practical action plans
that we can implement– let us weave and spread a strong net to catch
the great harvest of souls!

Registration:
early registration fee: $50/person before April 25, 1998
regular registration fee: $75/person
this registration fee includes boxed lunch and dinner for both days

For more information please call toll-free:
1.888.SWN.2ATF (1.888.796.2283) ext. 175
or 909.482.4466 ext. 175 (toll)
or e-mail us at:
atf@ifgf.org

U.S. SWN Asian Task Force
Attn: ATF Conference Registration
735 South Mills Ave
Claremont, CA 91711
– —
*

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:37:04 -0400
Subject: CAC_Mail: FYI: PBA Ban Update

Dear CACers:

FYI. Unsuccessful again for the 2nd year but never give up.
Happy Easter everyone!

In Him,
J. Chang
– ————-

Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Blocked in NY State

ALBANY, N.Y. – The State Assembly on Wednesday night voted narrowly to
block a measure to ban partial-birth abortions.

It was the second time in two years that abortion supporters barely
mustered the votes necessary to keep the measure from reaching the
Assembly floor. The vote was a victory for the speaker of the Assembly,
Sheldon Silver, who announced this week that he would introduce his own
bill.

Silver, D-Manhattan, who supports abortion rights, is planning to
introduce such a measure later this month, in response to pressure from
some of his colleagues. His bill would give Assembly members who support
abortion a measure they can accept, but one that allows them to tell
pro-life constituents that they voted for a ban.

But Gov. George Pataki and the Republican-controlled State Senate
support a stronger version, which would ban the partial-birth abortions
at
any point during a pregnancy. Silver’s proposal cannot become law without
their support. Pataki’s spokeswoman, Zenia Mucha, described Silver’s
measure as “a charade” and said the governor would continue to support
a
version that the Senate has already passed.

Assembly members voted 73 to 71 against releasing the stronger bill
from the Assembly Health Committee, which would have allowed it to reach
the floor for a full vote.

Of the 97 members of the Democratic majority, 18 voted against
blocking
the pro-life measure and 6 did not vote at all. All but 5 of the 53
Republican members voted against blocking the pro-life measure.

Leaders of the Conservative Party, a third-party in New Yrok State,
who
threatened to withhold support from any legislator who voted to block the
measure, stormed out of the Assembly chambers after the vote, around
11:30
p.m. Several of the 18 Democrats who voted against blocking the measure
have received Conservative Party support in the past.
– —
The Armchair Lobbyist
http://www.prolife.org/tal

– ——— End forwarded message ———-

_____________________________________________________________________
You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

——————————

From: Antti Lange
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:55:03 +0300
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: I am a Christian

Dear DJ,
DJ Chuang wrote:
> The Reformers had a great phrase that
> puts the status of the Christian in right
> balanced perspective: “simuls eustus et peccador”,
> which translated is:
> both [simultaneously] righteous and sinner
> [at the same time].

I am an elder in a very large Pentecostal church.
My experience is that this perspective is a very
risky ground because some of us Christians use
our spritual authority without recognizing the
importance of being submitted to the leadership
of the Holy Spirit. Instead, we may become quite
legalistic and make just references to the Bible.
That is why I prefer just to emphasize the free
glorious ability of making choices that a sinner
Christian may still have. There is no glory in
his doings when he sins. Therefore:
> > When I say…”I am a Christian”
> > I do not wish to judge.
> > I have no authority.
> > I only know I’m loved.
With love,
Antti

——————————

From: Tom Steers
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:44:28 -0700
Subject: CAC_Mail: Additional speaker, Asian Task Force meeting, May 14 + 15

Dear CACers, re: the recent postings @ the ATF conference:

Another speaker besides the ones listed has also recently and graciously
offered to give a message during the Asian Task Force conference in Van
Nuys. Dr. Ken Fong will give his message: GOING WITH THE FLOW: TO REACH
EACH AND EVERY GENERATION OF ASIANS IN NORTH AMERICA FOR CHRIST

Hope to see many of you there,

Tom Steers, director
Asian American Ministries
The Navigators

——————————

From: Antti Lange
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:13:31 +0300
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: soon expiring Divine offer

Antti Lange wrote:
> My dear CACers in Christ Jesus,
> A man (that is me) came up with his proposal
> how make use of the Patent Cooperation Treaty
> (PCT) to help your own kinsmen in China.
> Within a few days I must decide for which
> countries I still can offer the patenting of
> my God given high-technology invention (FKF):
> http://fkf.net/en/.

This is just to make it known that I have so far received no concrete
help from the CACers or any overseas Chinese Christian for my case
before China.
Do you really have better and/or cheaper concrete plans on how to help
your Christian kinsmen in China? Probably some of you have but how are
most of you?

It now seems that my small group of Finnish Christians must find all the
money (fees and Chinese translation) from our own small family pockets
and then abandon some of the following countries:
Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bosnia, Cuba, Guinea,
Ivory Coast, Kazakstan, Kenia, Korea, People’s Republic of Korea,
Kyrgyzstan, Lesotho, Liberia, Macedonia, Madagascar, Mexico, Moldova,
Mongolia, Niger, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Swaziland, Tajikistan,
Tobago, Trinidad, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uganda, Ukraine, Uzbekistan and
Vietnam.

> Please note that I am not asking for your
> money as I am asking for true Christian
> Chinese people yourselves. Please establish as
> soon as possible a Chinese Christian consortium
> to which I can transfer all my inventor’s rights
> for China before it is too late, say, 25 April 1998!

Sincerely yours in Him,
Antti Lange
The inventor of FKF
http://fkf.net

——————————

From: soohoo@wellsfargo.com
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:17:00 -0700
Subject: CAC_Mail: I am a Christian

Dear DJ,
Right on! You have echoed my thoughts exactly! The Reformers understood
that without the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ and His grace, there
is no hope for the sinner. Their key doctrine was that when the sinner
looked at himself, he saw his sinfulness, but when the sinner looks up to
Christ, he finds salvation (John 3:14-15). Thus he remains both saint and
sinner in this life as Paul expresses it in Rom 7:18-25. But clothed in the
righteousness of Christ, the justified sinner is to grow into the image of
Christ through the Holy Spirit unto good works. This is the life long
process of sanctification.

Finally may I correct your Latin: “simuls justus et peccator”
———-
From: DJ Chuang
To: Cac@emwave.net; ben_mel@juno.com
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: I am a Christian
Date: Saturday, April 11, 1998 8:27AM

Benjamin:

The Reformers [or it might’ve just been RC Sproul’s thoughts] had a
great phrase that puts the status of the Christian in right
balanced perspective: “simuls eustus et peccador”, which translated is:
both [simultaneously] righteous and sinner [at the same time].

In summary, the righteousness of Christ has been given [imputed] to the
believer who puts faith in God thru Christ (Romans 4:5), and it is that
gift of eternal life and regeneration that makes the believer holy and
“glorious”, and that will be fully made reality later (1 Cor. 15).

Now we as believers now often sin (Romans 7) and need to confess those
regularly before the Lord (1 John 1:9), yet as we walk by faith and
with Christ, we can bear good fruit (John 15), but we cannot do that
apart from Christ. That is, we do not produce good fruits on our own
as Christians, it is because of Christ’s working in and thru our lives
that we produce good fruit.

I’m not sure how much you would like to study this matter, for it have
implication for how we live our Christian life, how we understand the
grace of God, how we do ministry, and more. I believe an excellent
treatise can by found here:

The Doctrine of Justification by Faith, Through the Imputation of the
Righteousness of Christ; Explained, Confirmed, and Vindicated,
by John Owen *web site
at http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/ipb-e/epl-owjust.html

DJ

On 11 Apr 98 at 5:33, Benjamin C Wong wrote:

> Can a Christian behave Christ-like if he is a sinner? Remember that a
> rotten tree cannot produce good fruits.

*

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:55:20 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: [monthly] info

FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions about CAC

Posted: 14 Apr 98

[This is a monthly posting; * marks What’s New]

Q: How do you post a message to the CAC forum?

A: Send an email message to “cac@emwave.net” [without quotes], and a
copy of your message will be sent to all CAC subscribers.

Q: How do you unsubscribe (stop receiving CAC messages)?

A: Send an email message to “majordomo@emwave.net” and on the first line
of the message body, write “unsubscribe cac” [without quotes].

Q: How do you subscribe to CAC (start receiving CAC messages)?

A: Send an email message to “majordomo@emwave.net” and on the first line
of the message body, write “subscribe cac” [without quotes]. You’ll
receive a confirmation/ welcome message to say you’re a new subscriber.

Q: How do you receive the CAC Digest version? What is a digest?

A: Send an email message to “majordomo@emwave.net” and on the first line
of the message body, write “subscribe cac-digest” [without quotes]. A
digest version will compile all CAC postings in one big email message
that is sent to you about once a week, whenever the collected postings
reach 50k in size. Some people prefer this format because mailings are
less frequent.

Q: Is there an archive of old CAC messages?

A: There is an archive of CAC messages and posted articles on the CAC
web page

Q: What topics are allowed for discussion?

A: Topics related to Chinese American Christians are preferred, ranging
from theological, cultural, ministry, sociological, political, to
ministry opportunities and various announcements. Any topic of interest
to you is allowed, as this is an informal unmoderated forum, however,
realize that there is a diversity of members with a wide range of
perspectives, so please carry your discussion in a most cordial and fair
manner.

Q: I’m only interested in some of the topics. What can I do?

A: As the list has grown, almost quadrupled in size within the past
year, there has been an increasing diversity of discussions and
interests. We encourage you to engage in discussion of issues relevant
to Chinese American Christians; please refrain from file attachments in
order to conserve bandwidth. Short informational articles are okay; if
there is a lengthy article or essay you’d like to share, a short
announcement or reference to the web site can be posted.

Q: What is this CAC mailing list?

A: The CAC Forum is an informal “mailing list” online discussion for
Chinese American Christians, where we discuss many issues related to
(but not limited to) Chinese American Christians, including campus
ministry and ethnic church issues, as well as some political issues
concerning Asian Americans. As an informal forum, you may also share
ministry opportunities and prayer requests accordingly.

Q: What does CAC stand for?

A: CAC is Chinese American Christians. Although the scope of discussions
often discuss Asian American issues and sometimes generic topics, the
name stuck because of its origin.

Q: How many subscribers are there on CAC?

*A: Currently we have 193 ministry leaders and laypersons, and about
10% of those are on the digest version. Please forward this message to
others who may be interested in the CAC forum discussions.

Q: How does a “mailing list” work?

A: CAC is run by an automated computer program, called a “listserver”,
which send copies of email messages to all CAC subscribers. Currently
the listserver is undergoing some technical transition, but that should
be transparent to you.

Q: When was CAC started and automated?

A: The list was started in 1995 by Drs. Timothy Tseng and Sze-Kar Wan.
CAC used to be a manually propagated carbon copy email, but was
automated in summer of 1996. We hope to bring Chinese American
Christians together using the latest technology so that we can share our
ideas and resources on furthering the cause of the Christ.

Q: Is there a moderator for CAC?

A: DJ Chuang is the list manager; there is no
moderator for the ongoing discussions.

– —
*

——————————

From: Tom Steers
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:15:25 -0700
Subject: CAC_Mail: Summer Missions trip to the RPI

Dear Friends of Asian American Ministries of The Navigators,

Just to let you know: We have extended the deadline to APRIL 30, 1998 for
receiving summer mission applications.

God is sending a group of us to the Philippines 7/17 to 8/10. We have a
precious opportunity to: live in Filipino Nav apartments and go out on
university campuses to interview students. It’s three weeks of maximine
Filipino culture and maximine “front-lines” ministry.

The cost is $150 application fee, plus $2,750. (a part of this fee will go
towards blessing the Filipino ministry with computer equipment).

Applicants need to be disciples of the Lord who have been involved in His
ministry who have big hearts to learn and serve.

For more info, email me, or call, (310)831-9721.

Tom Steers

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:33:14 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: re. “..I am a Chr..”

– ——- Forwarded Message Follows ——-
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:38:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: JWongCDI
Subject: CAC_mail, re. “..I am a Chr..”

For you Ben, DJ, and Antti;
Thanks for discussing one of my favorite topics. After Ben’s questions,
I was hoping he would make a contribution. Now that Easter is over,
here’s my submission for you to examine.

JUSTIFICATION IS BY FAITH

Thanks for your reply DJ. The burden to prove that other theologians,
living or dead, has errors is too big a burden. I already know that my
thoughts do not agree with many of them. But, my aim is to subject my
thoughts to agree with the Bible.

I’m not a greek scholar, so my analysis is simplistic, but hopefully
acceptable. “dikaiaoo”, the word “justify” is from the same greek word
meaning “righteous,” but in the verb form. It’s not translated, “do
righteous,” or “make righteous,” but “justify” or occasionally “declare
righteous.” It is what God does for the believer, and clearly, it’s
done when the sinner believes God.

But what is it that God does, in “justifying” us? The forensic concept
proposes that God imputes a righteousness (Christ’s) and then declares
us righteous. This would seem acceptable to a legal mind, but to a
realist, it may appear that God is “playing games.” “You are righteous,
but you aren’t.” At least not until glory. (no wonder we question our
security)

I prefer to believe that God doesn’t play legal games, but deals with
reality. So if God should declare that I am righteous, I must be,
real-ly. (essential righteousness) This position creates a series of
questions, which seem to have no answers, so is rejected.

To find answers, I believe we need to recognize the presence of two
KINDS of righteousness. This first occured to me while reading Romans
3:21. Rom. 3:21 x But now apart from the Law the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD
has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

An analysis of Philippians 3:2-9, confirmed to me that the difference
between the Righteousness of Man and the Righteousness of God was not in
DEGREE, but in KIND. That is, Man’s righteousness is not merely the
imperfect expression of God’s righteousness.

How do they differ? The “Righteousness of Man” is a description of his
deeds, how did this person lived. It describes his works. However,
when we declare that God is Righteous (“Righteousness of God”) that is
not a description of God’s works, but of His Person. One then describes
Behavior, and the other describes Being. Thus the Righteousness of
Works (RoM) can never save a sinner who needs a Righteousness of Being.

And, wonderfully, Romans 3, is revealing a Righteousness of Being that
is available through faith in Jesus Christ (v.22). This concept is
fully supported by the imagery in Ezekiel which promises a new heart of
flesh in place of the heart of stone. (“heart” referring to our
essential being) It is also supported by the requirement Jesus stressed
to Nicodemus, “you must be born again.” Finally, the apostle Paul
announces that anyone in Christ is a “new creature.” A new creature
whose nature is righteous. AMEN!

thanks for reading this far. Clear? There’s more, but let me send it
separately.

Joe Wong
Church Dynamics International staff
serving at Chicago Chinese Baptist

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 01:39:20 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: I am a Christian

Antti; DJ; Soohoo:

Consider first these passages of Scriptures and I trust the correct
understanding of them. Please clarify any mistaken understanding thru
your understanding of them but proven not merely by experiences.

Rom. 3:23 “for all have sinned” = Everyone born since Adam is a sinner
and cannot do anything that is acceptable to God “and come short of the
glory of God.” There are other Scriptures that have this understanding,
but I think unnecessary here.

Rom. 3:25-26 “This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the
forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed: for the
demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He
might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.” If
God would just allow sinners into heaven and ignored the sinfulness, He
would not be righteous. {If a Christian is still a sinner, how is this
dealt with before he gets into heaven? Scripture?} Sinful people are
not allowed, they must be justified, declared righteous. If declared
righteous, then he is righteous.
– — Ray Pritchard in his book “Keep Believing” wrote about this verse,
“Not made righteous, at least not in this life. But declared righteous,
judicially acquitted, forgiven, the slate wiped clean, and the
righteousness of Jesus Christ credited to us.” If this is true, then I
am more aware of reality than God since I know I am not righteous but He
declares that I am, (weak human reasoning).–

II Cor. 5:21, “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf that
we might become the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD in Him.” The Christian has
become righteous, not man’s righteousness, but God’s righteousness.

John 1:12, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to
become children of God,…” The Christian is a CHILD of God. He belongs
to God’s family, no longer a child of Satan. How is he a sinner? Jn.
3:3 tells me that the Christian must be born again; a new birth. No
longer what he was but now born anew. II Cor. 5:17, “Therefore if any
man is in Christ, he is a new creature (creation: kjv);” That means the
Christian is all together new. Eph. 2:19, “So then you are no longer
strangers and aliens, but you are fellow-citizens with the saints, and
are of God’s household,” teaches the same understanding. Is God’s
household filled with sinners? II Pet. 1:4 says, “… in order that by
them you might become partakers of the divine nature, …” The Christian
partakes of the divine nature.

Heb. 10:14 “for by one offering He has perfected for all time those who
are sanctified.” I understand that His work on the cross did all that
was necessary to perfect the Christian. This means that the Christian
does not, cannot add to the work of perfecting him. Also I understand
that the Christian is perfected. Col. 2:10, “and in Him you have been
made {past tense} complete (perfect, full),…” gives this same
understanding.

I Cor. 1:2 and Rom. 1:7 the Christians are called “saints (holy ones).”
This title is not false. Nor is it based on some theory of paper value.
I understand this title to describe what the Christians are, (despite our
experiences to the contrary).

>From these passages of Scriptures I understand that the Christian is
holy, righteous, a child of God partaking of God’s nature.

But there is the strong evidences of our experiences. John Newton wrote
concerning the Scripture, “by the grace of God I am what I am.” (Paul
meant his perfection in Christ), “I am not what I ought to be! How
imperfect and deficient I am! I am not what I wish to be, although I
abhor that which is evil and would cleave to what is good! I am not
(yet) what I hope to be, but soon I shall be out of mortality, and with
it all sin and imperfection. … ” We can all empathize with Mr. Newton,
in our own experiences. We still sin and are greatly grieved and
frustrated in our failure to live godly. But this view of the Christian
does not fit this understanding of God’s Word. Why then is this so?

Your references to Rom. 7 is a good place to start. Paul is struggling
with the same problem; verse 15, “for I am not practicing what I would
like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.” And again in verses
18-19, “for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is
not. For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil
that I do not wish.”

But what is Paul’s understanding? :21, “evil is present in me, the one
who wishes to do good.” He is not saying he is evil, but that evil is
present in him. What does he mean?
:17, “So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells
me.” Here Paul says he is not the one doing evil. I do not believe he
is making a distinction between his good nature and his sin nature nor is
he trying to deny personal responsibilities. There is no reason to
understand that he is two “entities,” natures, or schizo. Paul is saying
that he, who he is, is not the one doing evil. Rather it is sin which
indwells him (present in him) is the cause. Does he mean “indwell” as
being what he is? No, :18, “For I know that nothing good dwells in me,
that is, in my flesh;…” The indwelling is in his flesh. This is the
problem; sin (“law of sin in the members of my body”, :23) dwelling in
his flesh is doing the evil.
What is the flesh? It is the physical body. Reasons for this
understanding. 1) “members of my body” in :23 refers to the physical
body. 2) Rom. 8:23-25 the hope we wait for is the redemption of our
body. This passage is within the context of Rom. 7 and his cry for
deliverance from “the body of this death.” 3) I Cor. 15:53, “For this
perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on
immortality.” This is the only aspect of our salvation that is not
completed. 4) The Christian salvation has been completed by Christ on
the cross. There is nothing to be added. The Christian can add nothing
and denies God’s grace if he tries. As in our righteousness and
perfection is the work of God, so the last part, the redemption of the
body is the work of God.

This then is the understanding of what is a Christian; he is righteous,
godly, perfected in Christ. Only because he is such is he able to do
godly works and live Christ-like. Matt. 7:17-18, “Even so every good
tree bears good fruit; but the rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree
CANNOT produce bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce good fruit.” But
he lives within an unredeemed body that is indwelt by sin. This body
being fed by the world-system to its senses dominates the Christian so
that he does the evil that he doesn’t wish to. But one day the body will
be redeemed and the Christian will no longer struggle with sin.

What is God’s provision for this? How does the Scripture envision the
Christian life? Since this has become quite a treaties, we will be
brief. The Christian is to live in godliness by walking according to the
Spirit; Rom. 8:4; Gal. 5:16. If he walks according to his flesh he will
commit sin; in fact according to Gal. 5:19 the works of the flesh are
sins. The Christian life is learning how to walk by the Spirit and
walking by the Spirit.

The principle in living the Christian life is grace. Remember if it is
grace it is no longer works. The two cannot exist together, either one
or the other.

There are tremendous and many ramifications to this basic understanding.
Affects for instance the body life in judging, in understanding
feet-washing to just suggest a couple.

Antti, you wrote, “That is the truth of me (Christian is a sinner).”
That is your understanding of your experiences, but I do not know of any
Scriptures that teach that. And you continued, “Fortunately, Jesus died
for me so that by faith the sinner in me is dead with Him. I must keep
the sinner in me dead by my faith – sometimes it is not that easy. In
any case it is easier to be than not to be (as a Christian).”
You also wrote in regard to being a glorious being, “When I manage to
walk with Him in faith I am a glorious Christian. Otherwise not!”
You are saying that your living godly is up to you. That is why it is
such a struggle. You are under works and have left grace. Also the
flesh cannot do good.

I asked, ” How is the Christian both?” that is, both saint and sinner.
This is in regard to his essential being. You wrote, “He cannot be both
at the same time

but he is able to choose again between good and evil after Adam’s fall.”
There is difference between choosing and the essential being. The
essential being cannot flip-flop between one or the other.

I wrote, Can Christian behave Christ-like if he is a sinner? You wrote,
“Yes if he keeps the sinner dead in him.” But a rotten tree cannot
produce good fruits. Only if he is Christ-like can he behave
Christ-like.

Thanks for making me verbalize in an organized form these thots.

DJ;
The start of the treatise you suggested is inputted. I hope others may
respond to it. Nevertheless I sort of want to respond to your posting.

You wrote, ” the righteousness of Christ has been given [imputed] to the
believer who puts faith in God thru Christ (Romans 4:5),” This
imputation is not just a judicial statement without the reality. Nor
does the reality come later, as does the redemption of the body come
later (I Cor. 15).

Again you wrote, ” we as believers now often sin (Romans 7) and need to
confess those regularly before the Lord (1 John 1:9),” Just a comment
in regard to 1 Jn. 1:9. To be exact, confession is not necessary because
we sinned, but because we have violated, departed from fellowship with
God. The problem is not the sin, but why we have sinned. The cure is
not the forgiveness of the sin but the acknowledgement that why we sin is
walking away from God’s direction, and thus has lost fellowship, and to
agree with God to go His ways; THUS, to homo-legeo, say the same thing,
confess.

Hope to hear from you again.

Dear Soohoo@wellsfargo.com

You wrote, “But clothed in the righteousness of Christ, the justified
sinner is to grow into the image of Christ through the Holy Spirit unto
good works. This is the life long process of sanctification.” How does
one grow into the image of Christ? Does one contribute to Christ’s work
for our salvation? Is His work incomplete, that one may contribute to
it? Do we become more in the image of Christ only in behavior or in our
very being? Are the Christians able to become more sanctified? In
becoming more sanctified how is he more holy? Are there sins that he has
conquered? I believe that I am capable of any sin when I walk in my
flesh, no matter how long I have struggled in my Christian life.

To grow into the image of Christ, to become sanctified sounds like it is
works.

Wow, I have really been blessed as I worked through these thots.

Thanks! Much thanks!

Yours for His glory,

Ben

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——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:09:54 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: I am a Christian

Hi Ben . . . and Antti, DJ, Soohoo,

May I throw in my dime’s worth? I was just going to sit by on this
discussion because I
don’t want to do the “intellectual gymnastics” and I didn’t want to
spend the time.
If after I pitch my dime you want the scriptures references, write me
back. I’m just lazy.

I think part of the problem is our definition of righteousness. If we
view righteousness
as a “right relationship with God” rather than a state of being (holy,
godly, perfect,etc.)
would that add some understanding as to how we can be saints and sinners
at the
same time? Righteous is synonymous with “just” (or justified, which has
more to do with
a relationship with something) but it is not synonymous with holy.

How about this example: Clinton is a scoundrel but not legally. I’m a
sinner (because I
still sin) but not in relation to God because He has justified me (by
grace thru faith).

If a sinner, how do I (a sinner, rotten tree) bear good fruit? I have a
“deposit” of
God’s Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is a fruit of the Spirit –not of
me and not my works.

To me bearing the cross daily is to die daily to my will . . .”not my
will but Thine
be done.” Not trusting myself nor living for myself. . .but trusting God
(faith).
The righteous (or just) will live by faith (in God).

Said another way . . .”I’ve been crucified with Christ and I no longer
live, but Christ
lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of
God . . .”

bill leong

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:07:38 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: I am a Christian

Ben:
Thank you for your encouragement to work with the Scripture. We do need
the Scripture to be our standard and guide to rightly interpret our
experiences.

I do want to caution that we not offhandedly dismiss other perspectives
as “weak human reasoning”, or based on “experiences”, as we seek to
understand one another, let’s do so with grace (just as we are
saved by and live by grace).

Bill’s encouragement to define terms is very helpful. The lexical
(dictionary) definition of “sinner” is simply “one that sins”. This
includes both believers and unbelievers, correct? A believer does
commit sin during the course of his life, correct?

Now to relate this to the overarching theme of the conference, how does
this affect the Chinese American believer in particular, in a distinct
way from other ethnic believers? Do you find Chinese believers to have
a clear grasp of the doctrines of justification and sanctification?

His Seeker,
DJ
– —
*

——————————

From: Antti Lange
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:13:57 +0300
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: I am a Christian

Dear Ben,
You wrote:
> Antti wrote: “That is the truth of me
> (Christian is a sinner).”
> I do not know of any
> Scriptures that teach that.
An apostle says: “If we say that we havn’t sinned then we lie and do not
walk in the light but if we confess our sins He is faithful and cleanses
us….”

> You are saying that your living godly is up to you.
Yes, it is all up to me but for a non-Christian it is not possible
because his will is bound by the Devil.

> That is why it is such a struggle.
Yes, it is quite a struggle in faith to be glorious! Fortunately, I am
saved by grace and there is no struggling to be just saved.

> You are under works and have left grace.
Yes, I am a collaborator of God just like Jesus and it is the harder the
more I want to be glorious.
I am saved by grace at the same time. My salvation was completed by
Jesus. There is nothing that I can add to His salvation of me. Thus, I
have by no means left grace as it is the foundation on which all my
laboring is based.
My labor is essential to the salvation of other people who are not yet
Christians. The reward of this labor work is glory (not my salvation).
The reward of the work of Jesus was the salvation of all Christians and
they all are sinners.
> flesh cannot do good.
Yes, it must die by faith or by a terrible death.

> I asked, ” How is the Christian both?”
> that is, both saint and sinner.
> This is in regard to his essential being.
> There is difference between choosing and
> the essential being.
There is no real difference as these two things go always hand in hand.

> The essential being cannot flip-flop between one or the other.
The essential being of Jesus does not flip-flop. However, the essential
being of a Christian is the ability to choose between right and wrong.
This ability is not a flip-flop thing. All Christians, sad to say,
flip-flop between Jesus and Devil.

> Only if he is Christ-like can he behave Christ-like.
Yes. We can be Christ-like only by grace in faith and behave Christ-like
only by laboring in faith. The faith grows only by listening to the
anointed Word (i.e. by reading the Bible in the leadership of the Holy
Spirit).

The church would avoid a lot of trouble if it could admit that
Christians are lights only if they switch on the light of Jesus by
faith. If they don’t they are as miserable as any sinner and live in the
risk of loosing their salvation. Fortunately, they all know how to
switch it on by grace (not by works) in faith. Christians should also
know how to work/struggle gloriously in faith for the sake of other
people’s salvation.

With love,
Antti

——————————

From: WTanfec
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:17:17 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: Youth Culture

Dear Friends,

I am looking for a speaker to come and speak on “Understanding Today’s Chinese
(or Asian) American Youth Culture” to the parents of my church. Do you have
any suggestions or leads to a suitable speaker for that topic? I am all ears!

Willy Tan
First Evangelical Church of Cerritos

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 02:25:12 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: I am a Christian

Ray;

Thanks for your quick response. I am not able to respond right away, it
will take some time and I must prepare for Sunday. But just my initial
impressions.

I don’t think you understood what was the connections between the
Scriptures being used. There were assumptions you made that was not
possible in what was written. Please read my posting again; slowly and
see the connections between the thots. Understand me and don’t assume
meanings that I have not made.

I never suggested that Christians do not sin. In fact I pointed out why
a righteous child of God do sin.

How do you understand the passages of Scripture that was presented?

This quick response is not because I am offended, nor is it to strike
back or to offend you. I am not hurt. But there is a good challenge of
thots. I want to know what is true. I pursue it for maturing my own
understanding and I hope for others on the posting.

That we may be equipped for His service,

Ben

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——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 02:32:32 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: I am a Christian

Ray;

Thanks for your quick response. I am not able to respond right away, it
will take some time and I must prepare for Sunday. But just my initial
impressions.

I don’t think you understood what was the connections between the
Scriptures being used. There were assumptions you made that was not
possible in what was written. Please read my posting again; slowly and
see the connections between the thots. Understand me and don’t assume
meanings that I have not made.

I never suggested that Christians do not sin. In fact I pointed out why
a righteous child of God do sin.

How do you understand the passages of Scripture that was presented?

This quick response is not because I am offended, nor is it to strike
back or to offend you. I am not hurt. But there is a good challenge of
thots. I want to know what is true. I pursue it for maturing my own
understanding and I hope for others on the posting.

That we may be equipped for His service,

Ben

_____________________________________________________________________
You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:52:50 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: I am a Christian

Thanks, DJ, for narrowing the focus of this ongoing debate about whether
Christians are still ‘sinners.’ Both from my interpretation of Scriptures
and from my own real life experiences, I definitely believe we are
paradoxically in tension, being ‘saints’ who still ‘sin.’

Now, on to the question of where we think this impacts Chinese Christians.
Let me frame my response this way: rather than make a blanket statement to
cover all Chinese Christians, I think it’s more a matter of where
individuals are in the course of their development as human beings.

The people from Minirth-Meier came out with a developmental model that,
while still just a paradigm, I have found extremely helpful in charting
human development. It has helped me appreciate and even understand why
different people, Chinese or otherwise, embrace different views on life,
God, etc.

First stage: BONDING
All human beings need to experience significant attachments, esp. to
significant others. Obviously, the most significant are one’s parents and
siblings. Acceptance, closeness, “oneness” all essential ingredients of
this stage of development. Failure to BOND produces all kinds of
insecurities and problems. I believe that AsiAms in general, given our
strong familial cultures, are particularly good at this. To belong to
one’s family, to belong to one’s church community, these are highly valued
dimensions in most AsiAm Christians’ lives. This can group acceptance can
also be used to threaten any dissenting voice, though. Shame, in a way, is
an outgrowth of BONDING.

Second stage: BOUNDARIES
Just as the Holy Trinity enjoys an incredible oneness (bonding), each
member is also distinct and separate from the rest. There is a natural
need for each person to develop a healthy sense of separateness or, as
Martin Buber would say, “otherness.” “I am not God, I am not you, I am
just me.” M-M believe that many AsiAm families, while pretty high on
BONDING, are pretty shaky when it comes to BOUNDARIES. I tend to agree
with them. Given the strong residue of Confucian hierchical relational
values, it is extremely difficult, say, for a younger ABC to differentiate
him- or herself publicly from their parents, teachers, or even pastors.
Here’s where the threat of disenfranchisement (unBONDING) is very real and
often employed to keep everyone in line.

Third stage: INTEGRATION
Human beings also need to reach a point where they can recognize paradox
and complexity and learn to live with the resulting tensions rather than
reduce everything to being either entirely good or entirely bad. This
doesn’t mean never taking a position, but positions are taken with a
healthy dose of humility. Thus, imho, our discussion about whether
Christians are still sinners seems to speak in particular to this third
stage of development. In other words, those who take the position that in
some mysterious way we’re BOTH saint and sinner may be able to come to this
conclusion, not just because we find biblical evidence for it, but also
because, developmentally, we’re more able to take this position without it
causing us undue problems.

Fourth stage: ADULTHOOD.
This is probably the stage where I believe many AsiAm Christians, let alone
the Chinese ones, really are stunted. True ADULTHOOD involves becoming a
PEER with other adults. Which means being able to disagree with each other
without condemnation. It also means relating to one another as brother
and sister in Christ now, not as a child to a parent figure, for the
realization here is that we all have only one God and father and his name
is Jehovah, not Pastor So-and-so or your dad or mom. Armed with this
value, while I still hope my congregation will submit to me in my role as
senior pastor, in my own mind and hopefully in theirs, we all know that
they’re really submitting to God, not me. Thus, if they question my
decisions or positions, that is not tantamount to questioning or doubting
God.

I realize I might be taking this CAC discussion down a different path with
the above, but I’ve always wondered how this model–however linear and
imperfect–might shed light on where our pastors and churches are.
Personally, I tend to believe that many of our families and churches are
stuck somewhere between stages 1 and 2. Thus, when God matures individuals
into stages 3 and 4 many of them find the typcial Chinese church too
stifling, so they leave.

One of the aims of our current ministry is to be a the kind of ‘family’
where each person is encouraged to mature fully through all the stages.
But that requires that the leadership of the church is sufficiently
developed, too. M-M insist that, just because one grows older, one doesn’t
automatically move through the stages of maturation. If, for any number of
reasons, a person gets ‘stuck’ at a stage, he or she must go back to that
stage and get ‘unstuck’ before being able to handle the challenges of
subsequent stages.

Okay, enough rambling. Just thought I’d share one of my operational
assumptions with you. Again, let me stress that I realize this is just a
model developed by Christian psychologists, but we’ve found it to be a
helpful filter or grid as we try to delve deeper into reasons why people
leave churches, won’t go to churches, or take different positions.

Ken Fong
Sr. Pastor
Evergreen Baptist Church of LA
Rosemead, CA

DJ Chuang wrote:

> Ben:
> Thank you for your encouragement to work with the Scripture. We do need
> the Scripture to be our standard and guide to rightly interpret our
> experiences.
>
> I do want to caution that we not offhandedly dismiss other perspectives
> as “weak human reasoning”, or based on “experiences”, as we seek to
> understand one another, let’s do so with grace (just as we are
> saved by and live by grace).
>
> Bill’s encouragement to define terms is very helpful. The lexical
> (dictionary) definition of “sinner” is simply “one that sins”. This
> includes both believers and unbelievers, correct? A believer does
> commit sin during the course of his life, correct?
>
> Now to relate this to the overarching theme of the conference, how does
> this affect the Chinese American believer in particular, in a distinct
> way from other ethnic believers? Do you find Chinese believers to have
> a clear grasp of the doctrines of justification and sanctification?
>
> His Seeker,
> DJ
> —
> *

——————————

From: SKYLeung
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:29:01 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: I am a Christian; Chinese American Believers; and Wedding Rituals…

Dear CAC,

Still recovering from a Thursday night bachelor party, but I’ve decided to
join the discussion. I Hope this won’t be too long or incoherent. BTW, BP’s
– – are they good or bad? The trends seem to be going away from deeds of
decadence and debauchery, or even “clean” levity at the expense/borderline
abuse of the groom, to which some Christians have resorted in the past, toward
outdoor adventure, thrill seeking stunts, or escapades to arcades (like Dave &
Busters) for virtual reality games/laser tag, etc.

Notes from last night: (1) tension between Christians and non-Christians over
itinerary; (2) good informal discussions about wives, love, marriage, and
families; (3) dangers of getting into “politics” – ironic that we bashed the
NRA and then went to go play “shoot-em-up” games; (4) misgivings about our
witness – dumping (many) dollars for fun and entertainment.

Okay now for (to borrow Brother Ben’s words) “pursuing it for maturing my own
understanding and I hope for others,” I’d like to add yet another layperson’s
thoughts to the matter:

Topic: a bit of soteriology (justification, sanctification, faith, etc.)

Tidbits: Amen to “JUSTIFICATION IS BY FAITH,”

Amen to being a new creature (reborn not two entities).

Amen to “The fruit of the Spirit is the fruit of the Spirit – not my works.”

Amen to “Christ lives in me.”

God is transcendent. He can see all our tomorrows as if it were today. He
already knows what we be like in eternity.

Take: Thanks Brother DJ for the link to John Owen’s discourse. Not to depart
from “Scripture alone,” but, it’s often good to consult the classics.
Sometimes we dismiss what historical thinkers have already wrestled with in
our haste to find the new and improved ideas of our own… I only wish there
was time to read all that Owen’s wrote on Justification by Faith.

Brother Joe, I sense (perhaps incorrectly) that you possibly take God’s act of
“imputing” righteousness a bit lightly. I wouldn’t necessarily equate the
declaration of righteousness to a “legal game” – no matter what we may think
of our lawyer friends!=) There was a great price paid for this imputation to
be possible – a once for all atonement. [Could we really overlook this at a
point so close to Easter?] This doesn’t mean God is denying “reality.” He’s
taking care of it in order to reconcile us to Him, and it’s a costly grace.

Brother Joe, I also see in your dichotomy of two KINDS of righteousness
essentially an attempt to explain the difference between positional
righteousness and experiential righteousness. Positional righteousness
results from the singularity (one-time event) of Justification. Experiential
righteousness results from the process (ongoing) of Sanctification. Your
“Righteousness of Man” is therefore a result. Our new heart is a new nature.
But, I don’t necessarily see this as equating to our righteousness. In the
Reformed understanding, the new nature is a gift from God that enables us to
turn to God in faith in the first place. Faith then results in Justification
and positional righteousness – again by God’s grace. I’m not saying that we
all have to be Reformed theologians, but it does seem to bring out the
difference between our essence and our righteousness. Through progressive
Sanctification, our experiential righteousness begins to more appropriately
“match up” to our essence and our position. Simply put, our essence is not
merely what we “do” in the flesh. And, as for good and bad fruit, this
qualitative evaluation may not necessarily be in the “eyes” of men.

Brother Ben, while we may not BE two creatures, I believe we HAVE two natures
for now. I believe that is your point from alluding to Ro 7 & 8. What do you
think about the NIV’s translation of “sarx” as sinful nature? I know the more
literal translations simply render it as flesh. But, I think that leads to
your conclusion that it is our physical bodies to blame for our sinning. Not
that I totally disagree with your deprecation of our unredeemed bodies. But,
I think this could potentially lead to notions similar to gnosticism – if the
physical body is what’s WRONG, then could a sinless God really reside in a
body of flesh? I also believe that passages like Ro 8.12, Ro 13.14, 1 Co 5.5,
Ga 5.16-26, 1Cl 2.9-14 speak to the already-not-yet death of the old “sinful
nature.” Only one nature correctly belongs with the one new creature.

Brother Ben, your comments regarding Sanctification are also a bit puzzling.
While we work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Ph 2.12), I don’t
understand Sanctification to be a result of our work or effort. It is the
continuing work of God that produces good works. Our works don’t contribute
to our salvation: NOT faith+works=salvation. Instead faith=salvation+works.
Christ alone; Faith alone; Grace alone. Some might equate the process of
Sanctification with growing into the image of Christ, but it isn’t the same as
Justification or Salvation, unless one subscribes to the understanding of some
Catholics. Our work doesn’t supplement, but gives full evidence of God’s past
and on-going work.

In discussing Sanctification and experiential righteousness, it should also be
understood that it is the completion of experiential righteousness that is in
the future. This is not to say that there is no “real” righteousness now.
It’s not an all or nothing deal. Imputed righteousness does not mean
experiential righteousness is not being worked out in our lives. I personally
don’t believe we’ll attain perfection in the experiential this side of heaven.
But, there are/were Methodists who do/did – the concept of perfectionism.

Transformation: But, all this is still just “theory” unless the rubber hits
the road.
Brother Bill is right in reminding us that we sometimes forget that the a
right (restored) relationship is the goal of Justification. A person’s
soteriology can just be another set of religious beliefs if the reality of a
relationship isn’t there. That relationship in turn motivates me to yield my
life God more consistently – so that fruit of the Spirit becomes increasingly
more evident. Otherwise, at best, my new nature is utterly undetectable to
observers.

Brother DJ, good question. What does this mean to Chinese American
Believers?

1) Those of us from independent or non-denominational backgrounds tend to shy
away from good classic theological thought – like that of John Owens. This
may lend itself to confusion over eternal security, and the issue of
works/faith. How many in our churches can adequately interpret 1 Jn 2:22,24
for the cultist at the door who’s insisting that we’re not justified by faith
alone.

2) The notions of perfectionism sometimes resonates with Asian cultural
appreciation for mastery of something. I think many of our evangelicals focus
working out their faith to the exclusion of appreciating God’s grace in the
whole matter. We can become a bit legalistic and works-righteousness
oriented. It’s hard to simply “let go and let God.”

3) Again, personal soteriology is useless if it’s just what one believes.
Asians sometimes simply do religion swapping. They can come to America and
take on the religion of the land instead of the relationship with the Living
God. Being culturally (not ethnically, despite Reggie White’s ill-fated
comments) predisposed to certain mental activity, many Asians can let faith be
nothing more than head knowledge at times.

For God’s glory alone,
Stephen Leung
(a work in process)

——————————

From: JWongCDI
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:53:34 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: CAC_mail re: “..I am a Chr..”

Whew! that was quite a treatise by Ben.
Basically, I am of the same understanding. My attempt to explain the concept
differs slightly.

Critical to a common understanding are the definition and use of basic terms:
Righteous, Sinner
Both those words are used variously. Most common is that both describes the
person on the basis of their BEHAVIOR. One who sins is a sinner. One who
does not sin, but does good is righteous.
The other usage is for those words to describe character, or the individuals
BEING. Used this way, regardless of the person’s behavior he is still a
sinner -or righteous. When the Bible speaks about the “Righteousness of God,”
it is refering to this use of the word.
For a sinner to become righteous, God has to “make him righteous.” That is
the meaning of the greek word, translated “justify.” But we prefer to
translate it “declare righteous,” still the verb form of the word (dikaisuna)
for righteous. As Ben suggest, that is implied in the concept of being born
again, becoming new creatures, or receiving a heart of flesh.

Most of this I wrote in an earlier memo. Let me attach the balance of my
memo, which has some mimmicking of what Ben wrote.

We believe the Bible teaches that in justifying the believer, God has made us
truly righteous, not forensically. But the righteousness we’ve become is not
a righteousness describing our behavior. Rather it’s a righteousness that
describes our being. We have “become the Righteousness of God.” (2 Cor.
5:21)

We come to our next question, “What does it mean to be righteous?” If God’s
righteousness is a description of being, then to define righteous as a “right
standing with God,” seems rather inadequate.
(Bill, your thought, ” If we view righteousness as a “right relationship with
God” rather than a state of being (holy, godly, perfect,etc.) would that add
some understanding”)

I hope we can also see that to describe righteous as never sinning, or always
doing right is the wrong usage.
Perhaps, like the word “sinner,” “righteous” should describe our innate
desires, the inclinations of our character. Rather than having a bent to sin,
the righteous nature has a bent to do good. This desire to do righteously is
not always successful and in Romans 7, the apostle tells us why.

He describes his own struggles with having a desire for doing righteously, but
constantly being overpowered by his flesh. Why do the righeous sin?, is
answered by Romans 7, and solved in Romans 8.
Walking by the Spirit is how we gain victory over the flesh.

There are other causes for a Christian to sin (I’ve found two other) and we
need to know what they are in order to avail ourselves of God’s provision for
victory over sin and our sanctification.

The second is the “unrenewed mind” in Romans 12:2. Wanting to do good and to
do it rightly, we fail, because we only know the thoughts and ways of man (our
own culture). (That’s why I’m so eager to understand the process for
transforming our culture.) What we believe are the true good and right ways
are really cultural “lies.”
The Bible can renew our minds and deliver us from the cultural lies.

Finally, a word for application.
Since we tend to treat people according to our perception of them, it is vital
to harmony for us to see the believer as righteous rather than sinners.
It seems a great tool for escaping legalism is to distinguish between the two
kinds of righteousness.
Perhaps we can understand sanctification as a completing, or perfecting of the
believer by getting his behavior to match his being.

Done, thanks for responding.

Joe Wong
Church Dynamics International staff
at the Chicago Chinese Baptist Church

——————————

From: Rlfong
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 02:45:17 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: HUMOR: Is Hell exothermic or endothermic?

Greetings all!

I hope that the post-Easter period finds you all well. This lends a new
agnostic insights on heaven and hell……..

Ronnie Fong
Fremont, CA

– —-Forwarded Message(s)—-

Hi,

This is forwarded from a graduate of the U. of Oklahoma Chemical
Engineering Dept., citing one of Dr. Schlambaugh’s final test
questions for his final exam of 1997. Dr. Schlambaugh is known
for asking questions on his finals like: “Why do airplanes fly?”

In May 1997, the “Momentum, Heat, and Mass Transfer II” final exam
question was: “Is Hell exothermic or endothermic? Support your
answer with proof.”

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle’s
Law or some variant. One student, however wrote the following:

“First, we postulate that if souls exist, they must have some
mass. If they do, then a mole of souls also must have a mass.
So, at what rate are souls moving into hell and at what rate are
souls leaving? I think we can safely assume that once a soul gets
to hell, it does not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.

As for souls entering Hell, let’s look at the different religions
that exist in the world today. Some religions say that if you are not
a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there are
more than one of these religions, and people do not belong to more than
one religion, we can project that all people and all souls go to
Hell.

With the birth and death rates what they are, we can expect the
number of souls in hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the
rate of change in the volume of Hell. Boyle’s Law states that in order

for the temperature and pressure in hell to stay the same, the ratio
of the mass of the souls and volume needs to stay constant.

[A1] So, if Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at
which souls enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will
increase until all Hell breaks loose.

[A2] Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the
increase in souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will
drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Theresa
Banyan during freshman year, that ‘It’ll be a cold day in Hell
before I sleep with you,’ and taking into account that I still have not
succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then [A2] cannot be
true;…..thus, Hell is exothermic.”

The student, Tim Graham, got the only A. >><-
– —-End Forwarded Message(s)—-

******* ****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ******* ***

——————————

From: Gdaht
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:52:57 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: fyi–g

http://churchsurf.com/

http://churchsurf.com/

——————————

From: “Rev. L. Dowell”
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:57:31 -0400
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: fyi–g

Gdaht wrote:
>
> http://churchsurf.com/
>
> http://churchsurf.com/
=============================/ld
Dear g:

I thank you very much. I liked what I saw, so I have just set up a new
site. Here is the url:
http://www.churchsurf.com/host/md/zion_s_gate_baptist/

Until then,
revldowell-clergywomen@erols.com
http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/7222
http://www.erols.com/revldowell-clergywomen/

——————————

From: TSTseng
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:03:46 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: Fwd: AAASCommunity: AAASPosts: call for papers: invasian-Asian Sisters Represen

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FYI,
Tim Tseng

– ————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com; ttseng@crds.edu
Web site: http://members.aol.com/TSTseng/index.html
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==================================================================
* This is email from the News & Announcements list (AAASPosts) of
* the Email Network of the Association for Asian American Studies.
– —————————————————————–
* For more information about the list and the AAAS Email Network,
* email a request to .
– —————————————————————–
* For information about AAAS membership, email a request to
* our national office at .
==================================================================

>
>CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS for an anthology of writing and artwork exploring
>the diverse depths and surfaces of Asian American girlhood(s) for
>middle school age readers.
>
>>>> i n v a s i a n : A S I A N S I S T E R S R E P R E S E N T << deadline-12/1/1998
>
>Asian Women United of California produces print and video materials
>by and about, as well as for, Asian American women and girls.
>AWU edited *Making Waves: Writing By and About Asian American
>Women* (1989) and *Making More Waves: New Writing By Asian American
>Women* (1997) and produced *Slaying the Dragon: Asian Women in U.S.
>Television and Film* (1988) and *Art to Art: Asian American Women
>Artists* (1993).
>
>For our next project, we are interested in putting together a book
>of writing and artwork for middle school age readers. We are
>interested in this age group because many of us still recall
>clearly the paucity of fun, relevant, interesting, non-sexist,
>and non-racist material available to us at that critical age when
>girls begin to lose confidence in themselves, their brains, and their
>bodies. Things get particularly tough for middle schhol age girls
>of color because just when their self-images get shaky at puberty,
>they can so often see themselves evaluated according to dominant social
>standards that racialize their bodies.
>
>Although we’d like to publish stories that feature Asian American
>female protagonists, we want our book to be read by everyone, not
>just by Asian American girls. We’d like stories that expand the
>definition of “American,” and not Asian folk or fairy tales or stories.
>
>Do you have a story for us, or might you be interested in writing
>one for us? Can you recommend other writers you think might be
>interested?
>
>Please send queries and submissions by December 1, 1998 to:
> ** Invasian: Asian Sisters Represent **
> c/o E.H. Kim
> 506 Barrows Hall, University of California
> Berkeley, CA 94720-2570
>
> 510/642-9132 & 510/642-6456 (fax)
>
> e-mail: ?????
>

================================================================
* AAASCommunity, the Discussion & News list of the
* Email Network of the Association for Asian American Studies
– —————————————————————
* Coordinator:
================================================================

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——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:14:26 -0400
Subject: CAC_Mail: Fwd: Press Release – Clinton & ESA’s

Dear CACers:

FYI. To add to the debate among parents regarding
their children’s futures…

In Him,
J. Chang
– —————

BAUER TO CLINTON: TELL THE TRUTH
ABOUT EDUCATION SAVINGS ACCOUNTS

WASHINGTON, D.C. – “President Clinton continues to distort
the facts about the education savings accounts (ESAs)
proposal currently before the Senate,” Family Research
Council President Gary Bauer said Wednesday. “Let’s set the
record straight. . .”

x CLINTON: “ESAs WILL DEPLETE PUBLIC EDUCATION RESOURCES.”

BAUER: “This proposal will not take a single dollar from
public education funding. Not even the liberal National
Education Association (NEA) claims that every dollar in a
taxpayer’s pocket rightfully belongs in the public education
tax pool. But that’s exactly what the NEA and the Clinton
administration imply when they say that parents investing
their own after-tax dollars in education savings accounts will
‘weaken public education by siphoning limited Federal
resources away from public schools.’ Since these are post-tax
dollars, the government has already gotten its piece of the
funds that will be saved in these accounts.”

x CLINTON: “ESAs WILL BENEFIT ONLY THE VERY WEALTHY.”

BAUER: “When President Clinton supported a similar education
savings account provision for college students last year, he
never told us that it was a tax break for the very wealthy.
That’s because it isn’t! The Coverdell ESAs simply build on
current law by making these resources available to parents of
elementary and secondary students — using existing income
caps.”

x CLINTON: “ESAs PROVIDE ONLY MINIMAL BENEFITS TO FAMILIES.”

BAUER: “By investing just $1.43 per day between a child’s
birth and entrance into kindergarten – barely one-fourth the
amount that can be invested on behalf of each child – a family
can accumulate more than $3,000 in that child’s education
savings account and save at least $100 in taxes on interest.
If they leave that money to accumulate until the child enters
high school, saving at the same rate, they’ll have more than
$12,000 and will have saved $1,300 in taxes. Maybe President
Clinton doesn’t think much of that kind of savings, but the
average American taxpayer does.”

FOR MORE INFORMATION OR INTERVIEWS, CONTACT THE FRC PRESS
OFFICE.

– ————————————————————–

To unsubscribe from this list, please call our order line at
1-800-225-4008. Family Research Council is located at 801 G
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_____________________________________________________________________
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From: Gdaht
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:51:07 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: Humor–G

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FYI Lurkers:

Fwd: Spy Equipment – Surveillance – Privacy – Swiss Banking

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Friends,

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or maybe protect your business from “snoopers”, than you must visit : Spyworld

We are a one stop catalog that will inform educate and provide solutions.

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——————————

From: SKYLeung
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:31:33 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: Fwd: Pastoral Position available in Irvine, California

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Dear CAC,

It’s interesting that someone here in Arlington, VA should be helping a church
in Irvine, CA. Nonetheless, I forward the following from Andrew Hsu. If
anyone wishes to reach him regarding this, his e-mail is
ahsu@ids2.idsonline.com.

In the Redeemer,
Stephen

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To: skyleung@aol.com, leungs@hoffman-emh1.army.mil
From: Andrew Hsu
Subject: Pastoral Position available in Irvine, California
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>Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,
>
> Greetings to you all from Arlington, Virginia.
>
> Earlier today I was contacted by a Taiwanese American church located
>in Irvine, California that is in the process of joining the Presbyterian
>Church in America (PCA).
>
> Currently, they are seeking an English-speaking pastor to lead their
>congregation of about seventy people. If and when they are approved to join
>the PCA order, according to PCA by-laws, all pastors must be ordained and
>have acquired a M. Div. degree, therefore, the candidate they seek must at
>least have an M. Div. degree and is able to be ordained by PCA as well.
>
> If you know anyone who meets this qualification or if yourself meets
>this qualification and are interested, please let me know as soon as
>possible and I will direct you to the contact in Irvine, California.
>
> Please pass this information to those you think would be
>interested….
>
> For a Reformation of the Ministry,
>
> Andrew….
>
>

– –part0_893424694_boundary–

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:45:07 -0700
Subject: CAC_Mail: exorcism

CACers,
A question occurred to me as I was watching Primetime’s Diane Sawyer’s
report about exorcism:
Have any of you encountered a demon possessed individual?
If you have . . .what did you do or what was done . . .cast out demon,
send to psychiatrist, avoid, what?

This seem to be an almost taboo subject in the Chinese church, I think.
Maybe the devil doesn’t mess with the Chinese.

In over 25 years of ministry, I’ve personally encountered only 2.
They are times of real faith building! to say the least.

bill leong

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 02:33:54 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: I am a Christian

Hi;

The many responses to this subject has been very stimulating. Safe
comment without much concrete substance. Ha, ha. But the subject is
really worth all our discussions and I hope we will pursue it to arrive
at an understanding that conforms to the Scriptures. I am especially up
for it because much of this has been understood only fairly recently by
me, and it has such deep ramifications to the Christian’s living as well
as to the church.

Also this is not the common or majority understanding as seen by the many
responses on CAC. Because of this I am open to being challenge and will
take all valid Biblical thots into consideration. But if our discussion
is to be efficient, we should discuss one area or group of area at a
time. If the responses is each presenting different materials then we
will only be each sharing our thots without dealing honestly with the
materials presented.

Ray, you wrote, “TILT! Paul did NOT say in Romans 3:23 that sinners
cannot do
anything that is acceptable to God. Some surely do teach this, but no
inspired person does or ever did.”

The context of 3:23 is the sinful condition of man and (:19) “…that
every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to
God.” Man has no excuse or merit to present.

What image do we get of man when 3:10-18 has such statements as, “There
is none righteous, NOT EVEN ONE, There is none who understands, There is
none who SEEKS for God, All have turned aside, Together they have BECOME
USELESS; There is NONE who DOES GOOD, There is not even ONE…. There is
NO fear of God before their eyes.”? If man is like this, what can he do
that is acceptable to God? His sinfulness is the root of all that he
does, however good it may appear to man’s eyes. There is none who does
good!! All have sinned!!

You also wrote in support, “… look to the story of Cornelius. Your
claim says that God would never consider listening to the prayer of
Cornelius because he was a sinner. Yet in fact God did listen to, and act
favorably because of, the prayer of this sinner.”

(My claim was not accurately represented here.) That God listened to
Cornelius’ prayer and acted favorably to him does not mean that what
Cornelius had done was acceptable to God. To believe that there was some
merit before God in what Cornelius did is to be in contradiction to the
concept of “for by GRACE are you saved, …” (Eph. 2:8). Or is it not a
contradiction? If not, please explain.

On the other hand, how do we account for Paul’s salvation? What did he
do that caused God to offer him salvation? There was not recorded
anything good about him, so also his own testimony. He should be left in
his utter sinfulness. But by God’s grace he was saved.

You also wrote, ‘Here you refer to Ephesians 2:8,9. Paul is speaking of
the
impossibility of our saving ourselves by works.” Ray I never referred to
Eph. 2:8-9. We can discuss this another time if you think we do not
agree in our understanding. I never implied that a Christian is not to
do good works. The point was how can a Christian do good works; how is
he to live his life in godliness?

You then created this straw man of proof by writing, “To illustrate the
truth you affirm, no doubt you’ll call our attention to brash Peter. In
the garden, he essentially was SURE that he would never deny Jesus. In
the courtyard, he essentially was SURE that he had never known Jesus. But
of course he didn’t flip-flop. …” No I would not call our attention to
Peter. He did not flip-flop in his essential being. He only flip-flop
in his actions which any Christian is capable of as he walk in the flesh.

One other consideration. I do not believe that the Bible teaches that a
Christian cannot sin. Therefore, a Christian can sin. But the Bible
teaches that a Christian should not sin because of who he is, because of
what God had done, really done to him, because of his essential being,
the real being. Now then, why does a Christian sin? ?

Bill, in response to your posting.
You wrote, ” If we view righteousness as a “right relationship with God”
rather than a state of being (holy, godly, perfect,etc.) would that add
some understanding as to how we can be saints and sinners at the same
time? ”

This is similar to the distinction made with “positional” and
“experiential.” Joe wrote, “if God should declare that I am righteous, I
must be, real-ly (essential righteousness).” Are we really righteous?
If not, don’t tell God because He thinks we are.

Is the “right relationship” possible without the “state of being?” If in
reality I am a sinner, how am I in right relation with God.
These two concepts has no Biblical teachings. (Can anyone come up with
one?) They are only man’s attempt at trying to explain the conflict.
That doesn’t make it wrong, but there’s better harmony, so far, with the
presented view.

You also answer the question, If a sinner, how do I (a sinner, rotten
tree) bear good fruit? with, “I have a ‘deposit’ of God’s Spirit. The
fruit of the Spirit is a fruit of the Spirit –not of me and not my
works.” Acceptable view! The only problem is only conjecture. When do
the sinner cease to be a sinner? How does it work? Does the Christian
have to be a sinner? Scripture?

If the thot is as DJ wrote, “… yet as we walk by faith and with
Christ, we can bear good fruit (John 15), but we cannot do that apart
from Christ. That is, we do not produce good fruits on our own as
Christians, it is because of Christ’s working in and thru our lives that
we produce good fruit.,” I would understand Jn. 15 as the Christian and
Christ producing the fruit. They are both of the same nature, not that
the vine is godly and the branches are sinful.

By the way DJ, my comment about weak human reasoning was in reference to
my preceding comment, recognizing that there was no clear Scriptural
support. This was not offhandedly dismissing my perspective.

I hope I have responded to each of your thots accurately and
satisfactory. Now tell me what you think about my treatise.
1. Does II Cor. 5:21; Jn. 1:12; II Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:19; II Pet. 1:4;
Heb. 10:14; I Cor. 1:2 and Rom. 1:7 teach that the Christian is
righteous, holy perfected?

2. Is it true that a rotten tree cannot produce good fruits and that
a good tree cannot produce rotten fruits? Matt. 7:17-18
2A. If (since) this is true, then the sinner must change his
nature to a godly (divine) nature in order to produce godly fruits. He
cannot do that by doing good works. He cannot change the “leopard’s
spots” (Jer. 13:23) only God can.
Isn’t this part of the gospel? Gal. 2:21 “I do not nullify the grace of
God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died
needlessly.”
2B. Then mustn’t the Christian be changed to righteousness before
he can produce righteous fruits? In order to behave Christ-like the
Christian already have to be Christ-like; is this in harmony with this
truth?
2C. How can a Christian sin?

3. Does the “flesh” in Rom. 7 refer to the essence, nature of the
Christian? Does the Christian have two essential beings; natures? If he
does (Scripture that teach this), what happens to the sinful being when
he dies? Does it go to hell? Why or how could it go to heaven? In
heaven is the Christian still possessing two natures?
3A. Are there good evidences that the “flesh” refers to the
physical body?
(Stephen, great inputs! Therefore will respond in another posting. But
briefly here: How can one ever justify “sin nature” as a translation of
the word “sarx”? There are far better words in greek to mean sin nature
than “sarx.” The NIV did not translate the Word of God, they interpreted
it. That is a terrible position to take if it is to be a translation.
How can one trust the translation of the NIV if it takes the liberty to
interject their own interpretation? I believe they also offended God for
they have now taken upon themselves to add or take away from God’s Word.
One should study the NIV like one would study the Living Bible; not as
the Word of God but as someone’s interpretation of God’s Word.
Personally, I would never recommend the NIV as the translation of the
Bible. Opps! Hope the strong statements are constructive.

I don’t see why understanding “flesh” as the physical body would lead one
to gnosticism? Nor does such a danger justify changing the meaning The
physical body is not sinful in itself. I was taught and once believe
that “flesh” here referred to the sin nature. So, yes, the literal
meaning is leading me to the body. But the context is also leading me
to believe it is the body. One must violate the meaning and concept of
“sarx” to think it means “sin nature”. One can only come to such a
meaning if one was taught it. If you were not taught this
interpretation, where in vocabulary or context did you arrive at this?
Where is the justification for such a translation, {not interpretation}?)

Looking forward to many of your, CAC members, inputs. Even if it is just
affirmation or not possible.

Yours for His glory,

Ben

P.S. While I was gone for 2 months, Feb. and Mar., I retrieved my e-mail
in Dallas on a computer that frozed up and I lost over 100 of my mail.
If I have not responded to any of your mail to me, please send me another
copy if you have it or if not please forgive my mess-up and consider that
I did not receive it.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:52:08 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Asian American Leadership Course

CACers:

Sorry for the late notice, there’s still time to sign up for a
first-of-its-kind Asian American leadership course coming up at
Trinity. Please pass along especially to seminary students.

dj

– ———————————————————————

PT 845 Asian American Leadership Formation

June1-4, 1998

Course description
Offered jointly by TEDS and Catalyst, the primary purpose of this
course is to encourage and equip English-speaking Asian American
pastoral/lay leaders to grow in the areas of leadership formation and
evangelism, particularly in the Asian American context. The course
will consist of a pre-course assignment (reading 3 books, writing a
short interaction paper, and interviewing three Asian American
Christian leaders), a four-day long modular course, and a final
project(only for those who are taking the course for credit). The
modular course will utilize both formal learning (lectures and
discussions) and informal learning (mentoring in small groups and
through team-building activities) processes. The course is designed to
serve 15 students with four instructors/mentors sharing the teaching
responsibilities.

About the instructors and students
The following four instructors will teach the course as a team*: —
Rev. Peter Cha, TEDS faculty and a pastor of Parkwood Community Church,
– — Rev. Soo Chang, served many years as an English ministry pastor at
the Global Missions Church in Maryland and is currently serving with the
Korean American Center for World Missions and is a Christian
businessman, — Rev. David Gibbons, the pastor of New Song Community
Church, — Rev. Minho Song, the English ministry pastor of the Toronto
YoungNak Presbyterian Church and an adjunct faculty at Ontario
Theological Seminary.

*Peter and Soo will serve the students all four days while Dave and
Minho will each invest two days each.

Since an important aspect of this course is to provide personal,
mentoring experiences, we are limiting our class size to 15 students.
Eight positions will be held for Trinity students taking the course for
credit (two semester hours) and seven for those who will be auditing
(auditing fee — $80.00) . The auditing option is reserved only for
those who are currently serving in a full-time ministry or have been
involved many years in a ministry as a lay leader. Those who are
interested in auditing the course will need to fill out the application
form (see below) and send it to Dave Gibbons before April 30th.

Course assignments:**
1. Pre-course assignments:
a. Read the following three books before June 1st.

Hansen, David. The Art of Pastoring; Ministry Without All the
Answers. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1994.
Long, Jimmy. Generating Hope: A Strategy for Reaching the
Postmodern Generation. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1997.

Yep, Jeanette and the Asian American Team. Following Jesus
Without Dishonoring Your Parents. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity
Press, 1998.

b. Write a five page paper which assesses David Hansen’s philosophy of
ministry in light of our Asian American and postmodern experiences (As
discussed in the other two assigned books). The paper is due on the
first day of class.

c. Interview three Asian American Christian leaders (be sure to
include a lay leader and a woman leader). Focus on their vision,
philosophy of ministry and frustrations they face as leaders.

2. Post-course assignment:

Interacting with the course readings and the lecture materials, write a
final paper (12-15 pages) that outlines your (a) philosophy of ministry
or (b) plans for your leadership development. Your paper should reflect
your understanding of biblical/theological principles, social/cultural
analysis of postmodern/Asian American experiences and your own gift mix
and life experiences.

** Those who are auditing the course are not required to do
assignment 1.b (interaction paper) and the post-course project. All
participants are required to do the pre-course reading and the interview
exercise.

A tentative class schedule

June 1, Monday: 1:00 – 9:00 PM
– — Course orientation
– — Personal introductions (our life stories and ministry experiences) —
Focusing your life – David Gibbons — Leadership and life stages -Peter
Cha — Ministry calling and guidance (Soo Chang, followed by a
panel discussion)
– — Prayer in small groups

Tuesday, June 2nd; 9:00 AM – 5:00 PM
– — Worship – Soo Chang
– — Devotions – David Gibbons
– — Importance of being “centered” through listening prayers – Peter Cha
– — Heart for God and the lost – David Gibbons — Heart for God andthe
world – Soo Chang — Building healthyministries:
In independent churches – DavidGibbons and Peter Cha
Inimmigrant churches – Soo Chang and Peter Cha
– –Developing your own philosophy of ministry – individual/small gp
processing time

** Optional: Evening fellowship – dinner, basketball/volleyball,
sharing.

Wednesday, June 3rd; 9:00 AM – 5:00 PM
– — Worship -Soo Chang
– — Devotions — Soo Chang
– — Opportunities and challenges in serving in an immigrant church
context – Minho Song and Soo Chang
– — Responding to the “silent exodus”- Minho Song, Peter Cha
– — Gospel in the postmodern world – Peter Cha
– — Developing an evangelism strategy for your own ministry
-individual/small group processing time

** Optional: Evening fellowship – dinner, Willowcreek worship
service

Thursday, June 4th, 9:00AM – 5:00 PM
– — Worship – Soo Chang
– — Devotions – Minho Song
– — Running the long race; persevering in your ministry — Minho Song —
Mentoring relationships; mentored by others, mentoring others –
Soo Chang and Peter Cha
– — Different leadership models/styles in the Asian American context –
Soo, Minho and Peter
– — Personal plans for your own leadership development –
individual/small group processing time n Course review and prayer

– ———————————————————————
– ———————————————————————

An Application for
Trinity Evangelical Divinity School/Catalyst’s
Asian American Leadership Formation Course
(For auditing students only)

Name:

Address:

Phone:

E-mail address:

Ministry experiences:

Ministry name Responsibility How long?
1.

2.

3.

Please answer the following questions in not more than a few
paragraphs.

1. What do you believe is God’s focus for your life?
2. What values shape your personal life and your ministry?
3. What are three of your favorite books and why?
4. Who has impacted your life and why?
5. What are your expectations from this course?

Please provide two letters of references on your character and
ministry leadership.

Send your application materials to Rev. David Gibbons, PO Box 5045,
Irvine, CA 92616 or to gibbonsdk@aol.com before April 30, 1998. If you
are invited to participate in the course as an auditor, there will be a
fee of $80.00.

– —
*

——————————

From: “Ray Downen (outreach@ipa.net)”
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:25:38 +0000
Subject: CAC_Mail: (Fwd) confirm subscribe to christianunity-digest@associate.com

What’s your experience with any list operated by Glenn Belcher of
associate.com? Were you able to sign onto any of the lists he
advertises? Please advise. Note the Reply-to address he has
furnished. My e-mail provider says NO WAY can he deliver to such an
address. Of course he can’t.

– ——- Forwarded Message Follows ——-
Date: 27 Apr 1998 04:36:02 -0000
From: christianunity-digest-help@associate.com
To: outreach@ipa.net
Reply-to: christianunity-digest-sc.893651762.gmphjjgciogjpnbnolfk-outreach=ipa.net@associate.com
Subject: confirm subscribe to christianunity-digest@associate.com

Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I’m managing the
christianunity-digest@associate.com mailing list.

To confirm that you would like

outreach@ipa.net

added to this mailing list, please send an empty reply to this address:

christianunity-digest-sc.893651762.gmphjjgciogjpnbnolfk-outreach=ipa.net@associate.com

Your mailer should have a Reply feature that uses this address automatically.

This confirmation serves two purposes. First, it verifies that I am able
to get mail through to you. Second, it protects you in case someone
forges a subscription request in your name.

– — Here are the ezmlm command addresses.

I can handle administrative requests automatically.
Just send an empty note to any of these addresses:

:
Receive future messages sent to the mailing list.

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Retrieve a copy of messages 12 to 45 from the archive.
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Retrieve subjects of messages, including 123 though 456
from the archive. Subjects are returned in sets of 100.
A maximum of 2000 subjects are returned per request.

DO NOT SEND ADMINISTRATIVE REQUESTS TO THE MAILING LIST!
If you do, I won’t see them, and subscribers will yell at you.

To specify God@heaven.af.mil as your subscription address, send mail
to .
I’ll send a confirmation message to that address; when you receive that
message, simply reply to it to complete your subscription.

– — Below this line is a copy of the request I received.

Return-Path:
Received: (qmail 3036 invoked from network); 27 Apr 1998 00:36:02 -0400
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From: “Ray Downen (outreach@ipa.net)”
Organization: Mission Outreach (Joplin)
To: christianunity-digest-subscribe@associate.com
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 23:35:06 +0000
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Subject: hi
Reply-to: outreach@ipa.net (Ray Downen)
Priority: normal

outreach@ipa.net (Ray Downen)

from Ray Downen respectfully on this day of the Lord.
417/782-0814 2228 Porter Joplin Mission Outreach.
Mail address is P O Box 1065 Joplin MO 64802-1065.
Internet home page addr = http://www.ipa.net/~outreach

——————————

From: Antti Lange
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:23:58 +0300
Subject: CAC_Mail: The FKF-offer

Dear Sisters and Brother in Christ,
Please let me recall that I am the inventor of FKF
(Fast-Kalman-Filter) by God’s grace. We are now establishing a company
called CALFAT Oy (CALibration Filtering Automation Technology ltd.) that
will take care of the FKF-patenting efforts for many developing
countries. These are expensive with respect to our limited funds and the
deadline for most of these countries is 15 May 1998. Thus, many wealthy
countries will also be included in these patenting efforts without any
charge from me as the inventor. The countries will probably be grouped
as follows:
1) Canada, China, Hong Kong and Vietnam;
2) Mexico, the African OAPI- and ARIPO- countries plus
Malawi; 3) Australia and the EuroAsian (former Soviet)
countries;
4) Switzerland and Turkey.
The CALFAT company will be formally founded tomorrow on Wednesday the
29th of April 1998 at 1 PM (10.00 UTC) here in Helsinki, Finland.
However, many countries are still outside this JaFRiM program. If you
want to be part of our worlwide relief/hitech program please let us know
as soon as possible so that efforts can be coordinated.
Yours in Him,
Antti Lange
http://fkf.net

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 02:59:54 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: exorcism

Hi Him . . .I tend to believe Christians don’t get possessed
but “demonized” as in a carnal Christian’s behavior being
strongly influenced by the devil, or enemy getting a foothold
somehow in the Christian’s life. So have you witnessed a case
of demon possession?

bill leong

Him Djuhana wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> Are you referring to Christians or non Christians being demon possessed
> ?
>
> Him Djuhana

——————————

From: Rlfong
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:02:19 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: The FKF-offer

Antti

how does your offer relate to the CAC list purposes of discussing issues
related to Chinese American Christianity? It seems to be a commercial
solicitation which is inappropriate for this listserver.

Ronnie Fong
Fremont, California

——————————

From: Gdaht
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:04:43 EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: fyi–g

The Sticky Wicket: Poverty’s Home Page

http://www2.ari.net/home/poverty/

http://www2.ari.net/home/poverty/

——————————

From: Antti Lange
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:49:36 +0300
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: The FKF-offer

Dear Ronnie,
Rlfong wrote:
> how does your offer relate to the CAC list purposes
> of discussing issues related to Chinese American
> Christianity?
Thanks for asking! Didn’t our Lord say: “I was hungry
and you didn’t bring me food.” Isn’t this question most
relevant to the American Chinese Christians? Let me
mention those about 6000 Chinese men who are without
any pastoral care before being executed in China each
year. Every American citizen will receive that care if
he has to face that cruelty.

> It seems to be a commercial solicitation which is
> inappropriate for this listserver.
Well, if this issue would be inappropriate for this
listserver then let me encourage the American Chinese
Christians to go to the leaders of Chinese Government
and convince them by theological argumentation that
every convicted criminal is in a desperate need for
pastoral care.

On the other hand, if the American Chinese Christians
collect the money needed for paying salaries to prison
pastors then the Chinese Goverment may probably establish
such offices. I do not have such money but Jesus gave me
a “talent” for raising the money but it is a long term
project.

There has be no meaningful response so far from the rich
American Chinese society for speeding up my project. I am
truly disappointed with you whom the Lord loves in America.

With Christian love,
yours Antti

——————————

From: JWongCDI
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:40:18 EDT
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: The FKF-offer

Perhaps we have a communication problem because of our cultural experiences.
I suspect that Antti is thinking from a National Religion perspective. That
the government will, or should, support religious activities. Therefore, if
the Chinese government was given money for various Christian activities, they
would allow (finance) them (prison chaplains?) to happen.

On the other hand, we Chinese Americans, do not think that way, but see the
Government as being unfriendly to the cause of Christ. To enlist the
government’s help in the work of the Church is foreign to our thinking. There
is indeed, a “separation of Church and State” in our perspective.

Hope this makes sense?

Joe

——————————

From: TSTseng
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:42:52 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: fyi–g

G:

Thanks, it’s a good resource!

Tim Tseng

– ————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com; ttseng@crds.edu
Web site: http://members.aol.com/TSTseng/index.html
– ————————————————————

In a message dated 4/29/98 4:07:11 PM, Gdaht@aol.com wrote:

<<The Sticky Wicket: Poverty's Home Page

http://www2.ari.net/home/poverty/

http://www2.ari.net/home/poverty/
>>

——————————

From: The Yees
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:11:50 +0000
Subject: CAC_Mail: Merc Article

Hi All –

Anybody download the article on Asian-American churches
in the _San Jose Mercury News_ three Sundays ago? Somebody
told me they cite shockingly high stats for %age of Xns
among AsAms . . . anyway, I think it’d be great if someone
could post it here.

Russell Yee

——————————

From: Rlfong
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:48:59 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Merc Article

In a message dated 4/29/98 11:13:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
rlyee@worldnet.att.net writes:

> Hi All –
>
> Anybody download the article on Asian-American churches
> in the _San Jose Mercury News_ three Sundays ago? Somebody
> told me they cite shockingly high stats for %age of Xns
> among AsAms . . . anyway, I think it’d be great if someone
> could post it here.
>
> Russell Yee

******** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
Russell

I didn’t copy the article, but it’s interesting enough to type in for general
knowledge and discussion. Sorry, it’s a long article. However, it is
interesting that they ran it on the Local Section instead of the religion
section; and its interesting because it’s so long a piece; and its
interesting that its fairly well balanced; and its interesting because how
often does a church plant get media coverage, especially in a big metro paper
like the Merc? Most interesting is the stats they claim for Asian American
Christianity. Can anyone verify the statistics and conclusions?

Ronnie Fong
Fremont CA

On Easter Sunday, April 12, 1998, front page Local & State Section, Page
B-1, San Jose Mercury News, main article taking about 40% of page:

HEADLINE: CONGREGATIONS AT THE CROSSROADS – Asian-American Christians
leaving their parents’ style of worship behind – ‘Our Kind of Churches –
Truly Asian-American – Used to be a minority. Now they’re exploding.’ by De
Tran and Arian E. Cha.

Picture of worship service captioned: Winnie Wong, center, and other members
of Grace Community Covenant Church in Los Altos sing hymns during the new
church’s third weekly service. Today, the church, whose congregation is
composed mainly of Asian-Americans, will conduct its entire Easter service in
English.

Article:

When Pastor Stephen Wong preaches to his congregation today in Los
Altos, his Easter Service will be entirely in English. That simple fact may
not be surprising or noteworthy to outsiders, but for Wong and the more than
60 members of the Grace Community Covenant Church, it’s a milestone.
For more than a century, most Asian churches in the United States held
on to the languages of its ancestors. By the 1980s, many added English
services that were smaller and geared toward the children.
Today, thousands of these US-born children are coming of age and leaving
their parents’ immigrant churches in search of their own houses of worship
where English is the sole language.
Last month, the Grace Community Covenant Church became one of about a
dozen second-generation Asian-American churches blossoming in the Bay Area.
It’s a movement that is taking hold throughout California, where more than a
third of the country’s Asian Americans reside.
“Our kind of churches – truly Asian American – used to be a minority, ”
the Rev. Peter Borromeo said. “Now, they’re exploding.”
– ——– continued on page 6b where 40% of page taken by article
– ——————–
English-language churches are the answer for many second-generation
Asian-Americans who are not fluent in the language of their immigrant parents
and who are seeking spiritual relevance. pastors deal with topics such as the
generational and cultural gaps that are often a source of conflict between
immigrant parents and their American-born offspring.
For the past 14 years, Wong had preached to English-speaking
congregations at several Chinese churches in the Bay Area, but he said, he
never truly felt welcome.
“I have been asked countless times, ‘Why don’t you speak Chinese?’ ”
said Wong, a Chinese-American born and raised in San Francisco. “It’s
impossible to participate in the leadership of a church if you don’t speak the
language.”

MAJORITY ARE CHRISTIAN

More than half of the Asians in the United States are Christian.
There are now more than 3,300 Asian-American churches in the United
States, some 2,500 of them are Korean-American, said Sungdo Kang, a
professor at the Claremont School of Theology.
English-language churches for Asian-Americans were formed in part as a
response to what Helen Lee, former editor of Christianity Today, calls a
“silent exodus.” Many U.S.-born Asians are trickling out of churches and
leaving Christianity as they grow older, Lee said. While many Asian-Americans
are active in college Christian fellowships – at Stanford University 75% of
the members of the largest Christian fellowships are Asian-american – many
lose interest when they graduate and become immersed in their careers and
families.
The contrast between immigrant and pan-Asian churches is subtle – but
significant.
Immigrant churches tend to be Confucian, with a strict hierarchy. Pan-
Asian churches strive to be more democratic.
And while immigrant churches are often divided along denominational and
ethnic lines, many pan-Asian churches try to transcend those differences.
“The kind of messages that I give on Sunday morning tend to be very
practical, messages that people can relate to,” said Jim Bae, a pastor at the
Korean First Baptist Church of San Jose.
Despite the migration of American-born Asians to those new churches,
immigrant churches in the United States are growing in numbers, membership and
influence. Korean “mega-churches” with more than 6,000 members each are now
among the largest in the country. Southeast Asians – Vietnamese, Cambodians
and Hmong – are among the fastest growing groups of Protestants.
While enrollment at theological schools has declined, which religious
leaders attribute to the “secularization” of American society, record numbers
of Asian-Americans are choosing religious vocations. Recently, about a third
of the Claremont School of Theology’s 350 students have been Asian-American;
about half of the 2,000 students at the Fuller Theological Seminary in
Pasadena are Asian-American.
The surge in English-speaking Asian churches in only the latest twist in
the history of Christianity among Asian-Americans. The first Asian
Christians, like the European Protestants, came to American to flee
religious persecution. Many went to Hawaii in the late 1800s and were told by
missionaries that they would become better Christians and be blessed with
riches in a Christian land.
Missionaries greatly influenced Christian denominations in Asia. For
example, the majority of Korean Christians are Presbyterians and Vietnamese
and Filipino Christians are Catholics. Scholars say the Yoido Full Gospel
Church in Seoul, South Korea, which boasts about 700,000 members, is the
world’s largest Christian church.
Historically, Asian churches in the United States have provided more
than spiritual comfort. They have served as the building blocks for
communities, teaching English to generations of new immigrants and providing
social service referrals.

NEW CHURCHES FOR NEWCOMERS

As newcomers continue to arrive, more immigrant churches are springing
up to serve them. Pastor Kieu Tuan Nam started the Vietnamese Liberty
Christian Reformed Church to serve Silicon Valley’s large Vietnamese immigrant
community. The East San Jose church also has a homework center to help
immigrant children adjust.
He tries to provide spiritual guidance to immigrants who are easily
dazzled by the riches of America.
“I think that they adapt to materialism faster than spiritual needs” he
said.
Asian-American Christians sometimes incorporate elements of Buddhism,
Confucianism and Shintoism into their worship. Many feel retaining such
practices does not conflict with Christian teachings; others disagree. One
cannot escape there cultural aspects, Asian-American Christians say, just
the same as one cannot escape the Judeo-Christian influence of living in the
United States.

TRADITIONS LIVE ON

To celebrate the new year, the Wesley United Methodist Church in San
Jose’s Japantown makes about 100,000 pieces of mochi, or rice cakes – a
tradition with Shinto roots.
“These events are very Japanese as well as Japanese-American,” said
pastor Mariellen Sawada. “They are a part of our way of life, part of our
living.”
Many Japanese Christians believe in bachi, or bad karma.
And many Vietnamese Catholics here have ancestral altars in their homes
and attend Mass during Tet, said the Rev. Joseph Nguyen Van Thu. The San
Jose diocese has 13 Vietnamese-language Masses a week. Many young Vietnamese-
Americans are starting to assimilate, although it’s a gradual process, Thu
said.
But whatever language, the message remains the same.
Said Thu: “The priests always like to help people find meaning in life,
have hope, retain the old values of keeping families together through the
tough times.

Picture of baby dedication captioned: Rev. Stephen Wong of the Grace
Community Church blesses 4-month-old Brandon Tam as his parents Susan and
Kenny Tam pray.

CHRISTIANS OF ASIAN DESCENT

Since 1980, immigration has increased the number of Christians of Asian
descent in the United States more than five-fold. Here are the estimates:

1970 540,000 Catholic 490,000 Protestant 1.03 million Total
1980 830,000 Catholic 970,000 Protestant 1.8 million Total
1990 2,600,000 Catholic 1,300,000 Protestant 3.9 million Total
1997 3,700,000 Catholic 1,800,000 Protestant 5.5 million Total

From 1990 through 1997, more than half of all Asian-Americans identified
themselves as Christians. Here is a breakdown of their affiliations and those
of all Americans in those years.
All Americans Asian-Americans
Protestant 60.8% 17.3%
Catholic 24.2% 36.2%
Jewish 2.1% 0.8%
Other 3.6% 29.1%
None 9.3% 16.5%

Sources: Analysis of General Social Surveys and U.S. Census Bureau Data by
Tom Smith of the National Opinion Research Center

END OF ARTICLE.

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 02:58:10 -0700
Subject: CAC_Mail: NIV

>The NIV did not translate the Word of God, they interpreted
> it. That is a terrible position to take if it is to be a translation.
> How can one trust the translation of the NIV if it takes the liberty to
> interject their own interpretation? I believe they also offended God for
> they have now taken upon themselves to add or take away from God’s Word.
> One should study the NIV like one would study the Living Bible; not as
> the Word of God but as someone’s interpretation of God’s Word.
> Personally, I would never recommend the NIV as the translation of the
> Bible. Opps! Hope the strong statements are constructive.

Ben,

I had a professor who worked on the translation for the NIV. He
described
to us the meticulous, rigorous, intense process of this translation as
it
went through many review committees. Over a hundred distinguished
scholars
worked on the NIV (not just one as in the case of the Living Bible).
Honestly, Ben, do you feel confident enough as a scholar to have been
on that translation team?

Also, all translations from the original langauges requires
interpretation.
>From language to language, different way of thinking and writing
requires
contextual considerations. The NASB is considered the most “literal”
translation, yet still requires interpretation. Literal word for word is
not
necessarily the best translation anyway as words have different meanings
in their cultural context and words changes meanings over time. Besides,
there are many words in the original language that do not have an
English equivalence; the translators have to choose English words to
fit the context as they interpret the context.

Personally, I find the NIV to be the best translation for clarity and
accuracy
of understanding. Anyway, frequently I use the NIV, NASB, KJV, Living
Bible (a paraphrase, not translation) side by side anyway. For my
students
I “require” them to use the NIV; they don’t have easy access to
reference
works and the NIV is easy to read as well as conveying accurate
understanding.

bill leong

——————————

From: SKYLeung
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:39:12 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Merc Article AND I am a Christian

Brother Ronnie,

Thanks for the most interesting article.

Pardon my free-association ways, but a couple of things in the article spark
additional questions on top of those we’ve already been discussing:

Under the NEW CHURCHES FOR NEWCOMERS section of the article, there is mention
of incorporating elements of Buddhism, Confucianism, and Shintoism. Don’t
know about you, but that raises red flags for me. Is the theology of Asian
Americans influenced by other religious notions? Brother Ben, this is why
neo-gnosticism is a concern of mine (warranted or unwarranted).

Identification with old-culture mysticism (conscious or unconcious) can lead
to strange theology. Anyone want to comment on allegorical readings of
Scripture or the effects of pastors reading Watchman Nee?

Under the CHRISTIANS OF ASIAN DESCENT section of the article, the actual make-
up of Christians is more than 2:1, Catholics to Protestants. Perhaps this
sheds additional light on why an adequate understanding of Justification by
Faith is important.

I also note that the percentage of “Other” is higher than that of Protestants,
and that “None” is nearly as high as that of Protestants. I’m curious if the
“Other” is predominantly Buddhist.

I also wonder how the percentages may differ in different regions West Coast,
Midwest, East Coast, South, etc. Under the NEW CHURCHES FOR NEWCOMERS
section, they report AA Christians saying that the Judeo-Christian influence
can’t be escaped living in the US. From observations during my time in the
South, that’s precisely why some Asians would call themselves Christians when
pressed for an answer – it’s what I refer to as religion-swapping to
facilitate assimilation.

Near the end of the MAJORITY ARE CHRISTIAN section, there is brief
characterization of Asian churches being building blocks for communities, and
it lists teaching English to generations of new immigrants as one of the
services provided. Let me wonder aloud: Isn’t that why the NIV and other
dynamic equivalents are popular in Asian congregations?

In the 1980’s I worshipped regularly in no less than 7 Chinese Churches
(because of frequent work relocation). I believe I recall correctly that the
NIV was the version “furnisished”/ “stocked” by every one of these. Thus,
Brother Ben’s sharing of the NIV’s interpretational shortcoming in Rom 7 is
eye-opening. I wonder how many other “key” concepts could be “fuzzied” by
strictly reading the NIV. (Brother DJ shared with me that most KJ(AV)-only
people only point to “legalistic” issues as the real difference in their
Christianity – beyond the matter of the sole valid version, and prior to NIV
going gender-neutral.) Now I guess the NIV is “controversial” in discussing
Justification – impugned or infused.

Definitely don’t want folks to get too quiet around here!=) Anyone like to
comment on the Cambridge Declaration? FYI, it’s at
http://www.remembrancer.com/ace/CamDec.html

Talked to my twenty-something brother-in-law last night. He was expressing
his dismay with the leaders of “our” generation. It was kind of “shocking”
when he suggested that we “youngsters” are following in the ways of the older
generation now – preoccupation with culture, political trends, and “marketing”
at the expense of clear presentation of the Gospel. (I had given him a copy of
the Cambridge Declaration which he said he agreed with whole-heartedly.) In
particular, he said that one big difference he has seen between the Caucasian
congregations and Asian congregations that he has attended is the preaching.
Even among the Asian congregations that uphold expository preaching, there is
often a paucity of regular, clear, communication of both the
righteousness/holiness demanded by the Law and grace shown to sinners by God.

Thots?

Rambling on and on,
Stephen

——————————

From: wkmoy@juno.com (Wilbur K Moy)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 00:04:34 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Merc Article

On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:11:50 +0000 The Yees
writes:
>Anybody download the article on Asian-American churches
>in the _San Jose Mercury News_ three Sundays ago? Somebody
>told me they cite shockingly high stats for %age of Xns
>among AsAms . . . anyway, I think it’d be great if someone
>could post it here.
>
>Russell Yee

I’m sure some commentary on the stats would be welcome from the
likes of Pastor Ken Fong, others. Happy stats crunching – or should I
say filtering?
Christ is risen indeed, Wilbur, SCBC

Here goes: SJ Mercury, Sun April 12, 1998
“Congregations at the Crossroads”
Asian American Christians leaving their parents’ style of worship behind
by De Tran and Ariana E Cha, Mercury News Staff Writers

CONTEXT: “For more than a century, most Asian churches in the
United States held on to the languages of their ancestors. By the 1980s,
many added English services that were smaller & geared toward the
children.
Today, thousands of these US born children are coming of age and
leaving their parents’ immigrant churches in search of their own houses
of worship where English is the sole language.”

HIGHLIGHTS: Majority are Christians
“More than half of the Asians in the US are Christian.
There are now more than 3,000 Asian American churches in the US,
some 2,500 Korean American, said Sungdo Kang, a professor @ Claremont
School of Theology.”

STATS listed: Christians of Asian Descent
Since 1970, immigration has increased the no. of Christian of
Asian descent in the US more than 5-fold. Here are the estimates (in
millions): (bar graph)

1970 Catholic: .54 Protestant: .49 Total:
1.03million
1980 Catholic: .83 Protestant: .97 Total:
1.8
1990 Catholic: 2.6 Protestant: 1.3 Total:
3.9
1997 Catholic: 3.7 Protestant: 1.8 Total:
5.5

From 1990-1997, more than half of all Asian-Americans identified
themselves as Christians. Here is a breakdown of their affiliations and
those of all Americans in those years. (pie graphs)

All Americans: Protestant 60.8%
Catholic 24.2
Jewish 2.1
Other 3.6
None 9.3

Asian Americans: Protestant 17.3%
Catholic 36.2
Jewish .8
Other 29.1
None 16.5

Source: Analysis of General Social Surveys and US Census Bureau Data
by Tom Smith of the Ntaional Opinion Research Center

{w: I suppose if this next paragraph is understood in correctly in
context then the stat percentages are . . . clearer? Or perhaps “Judeo
Christianized” too?- i trust we’re not neglecting the need to reach the
unreached Asian Americans – upward & onward]

“Asian American Christians sometime incorporate elements of
Buddhism, Confucianism and Shintoism into their worship. Many feel
retaining such practices does not conflict w/ Christian teachings, others
disagree. One cannot escape these cultural aspects, Asian American
Christians say, just the same as one cannot escape the Judeo-Christian
influence of living in the US”

Greetings & blessings to Pastor Steve & Winnie Wong, noted, quoted &
pictured in the SJ Merc article.
Also quoted: Helen Lee(‘s) article in CTi, “Silent Exodus”

Also of NOTE: SF Examiner article, Sunday, April 12, 1998
“Marketing Ministries”
Churches using music, cartoons, even Starbucks as recruiting tools
by Vicki Haddock of Examiner staff.

Drop a line for more highlights from either article.

Hmmm, is Easter just a good day to post articles on churches/ ministries?

_____________________________________________________________________
You don’t need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:30:56 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Merc Article

Hey, Ronnie, muchas, muchas gracias for inputting this article. Nice to hear the
Steve got some coverage for the new church plant after all he went through at his
old church.

Anyone else out there in CAC land skeptical about the stat where 50% of all Asians
in America say they’re Christian? Boy, that is such a radical departure from the
oft-cited figures of 3-5%.

ken fong

Rlfong wrote:

> In a message dated 4/29/98 11:13:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> rlyee@worldnet.att.net writes:
>
> > Hi All –
> >
> > Anybody download the article on Asian-American churches
> > in the _San Jose Mercury News_ three Sundays ago? Somebody
> > told me they cite shockingly high stats for %age of Xns
> > among AsAms . . . anyway, I think it’d be great if someone
> > could post it here.
> >
> > Russell Yee
>
> ******** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
> Russell
>
> I didn’t copy the article, but it’s interesting enough to type in for general
> knowledge and discussion. Sorry, it’s a long article. However, it is
> interesting that they ran it on the Local Section instead of the religion
> section; and its interesting because it’s so long a piece; and its
> interesting that its fairly well balanced; and its interesting because how
> often does a church plant get media coverage, especially in a big metro paper
> like the Merc? Most interesting is the stats they claim for Asian American
> Christianity. Can anyone verify the statistics and conclusions?
>
> Ronnie Fong
> Fremont CA
>
> On Easter Sunday, April 12, 1998, front page Local & State Section, Page
> B-1, San Jose Mercury News, main article taking about 40% of page:
>
> HEADLINE: CONGREGATIONS AT THE CROSSROADS – Asian-American Christians
> leaving their parents’ style of worship behind – ‘Our Kind of Churches –
> Truly Asian-American – Used to be a minority. Now they’re exploding.’ by De
> Tran and Arian E. Cha.
>
> Picture of worship service captioned: Winnie Wong, center, and other members
> of Grace Community Covenant Church in Los Altos sing hymns during the new
> church’s third weekly service. Today, the church, whose congregation is
> composed mainly of Asian-Americans, will conduct its entire Easter service in
> English.
>
> Article:
>
> When Pastor Stephen Wong preaches to his congregation today in Los
> Altos, his Easter Service will be entirely in English. That simple fact may
> not be surprising or noteworthy to outsiders, but for Wong and the more than
> 60 members of the Grace Community Covenant Church, it’s a milestone.
> For more than a century, most Asian churches in the United States held
> on to the languages of its ancestors. By the 1980s, many added English
> services that were smaller and geared toward the children.
> Today, thousands of these US-born children are coming of age and leaving
> their parents’ immigrant churches in search of their own houses of worship
> where English is the sole language.
> Last month, the Grace Community Covenant Church became one of about a
> dozen second-generation Asian-American churches blossoming in the Bay Area.
> It’s a movement that is taking hold throughout California, where more than a
> third of the country’s Asian Americans reside.
> “Our kind of churches – truly Asian American – used to be a minority, ”
> the Rev. Peter Borromeo said. “Now, they’re exploding.”
> ——– continued on page 6b where 40% of page taken by article
> ——————–
> English-language churches are the answer for many second-generation
> Asian-Americans who are not fluent in the language of their immigrant parents
> and who are seeking spiritual relevance. pastors deal with topics such as the
> generational and cultural gaps that are often a source of conflict between
> immigrant parents and their American-born offspring.
> For the past 14 years, Wong had preached to English-speaking
> congregations at several Chinese churches in the Bay Area, but he said, he
> never truly felt welcome.
> “I have been asked countless times, ‘Why don’t you speak Chinese?’ ”
> said Wong, a Chinese-American born and raised in San Francisco. “It’s
> impossible to participate in the leadership of a church if you don’t speak the
> language.”
>
> MAJORITY ARE CHRISTIAN
>
> More than half of the Asians in the United States are Christian.
> There are now more than 3,300 Asian-American churches in the United
> States, some 2,500 of them are Korean-American, said Sungdo Kang, a
> professor at the Claremont School of Theology.
> English-language churches for Asian-Americans were formed in part as a
> response to what Helen Lee, former editor of Christianity Today, calls a
> “silent exodus.” Many U.S.-born Asians are trickling out of churches and
> leaving Christianity as they grow older, Lee said. While many Asian-Americans
> are active in college Christian fellowships – at Stanford University 75% of
> the members of the largest Christian fellowships are Asian-american – many
> lose interest when they graduate and become immersed in their careers and
> families.
> The contrast between immigrant and pan-Asian churches is subtle – but
> significant.
> Immigrant churches tend to be Confucian, with a strict hierarchy. Pan-
> Asian churches strive to be more democratic.
> And while immigrant churches are often divided along denominational and
> ethnic lines, many pan-Asian churches try to transcend those differences.
> “The kind of messages that I give on Sunday morning tend to be very
> practical, messages that people can relate to,” said Jim Bae, a pastor at the
> Korean First Baptist Church of San Jose.
> Despite the migration of American-born Asians to those new churches,
> immigrant churches in the United States are growing in numbers, membership and
> influence. Korean “mega-churches” with more than 6,000 members each are now
> among the largest in the country. Southeast Asians – Vietnamese, Cambodians
> and Hmong – are among the fastest growing groups of Protestants.
> While enrollment at theological schools has declined, which religious
> leaders attribute to the “secularization” of American society, record numbers
> of Asian-Americans are choosing religious vocations. Recently, about a third
> of the Claremont School of Theology’s 350 students have been Asian-American;
> about half of the 2,000 students at the Fuller Theological Seminary in
> Pasadena are Asian-American.
> The surge in English-speaking Asian churches in only the latest twist in
> the history of Christianity among Asian-Americans. The first Asian
> Christians, like the European Protestants, came to American to flee
> religious persecution. Many went to Hawaii in the late 1800s and were told by
> missionaries that they would become better Christians and be blessed with
> riches in a Christian land.
> Missionaries greatly influenced Christian denominations in Asia. For
> example, the majority of Korean Christians are Presbyterians and Vietnamese
> and Filipino Christians are Catholics. Scholars say the Yoido Full Gospel
> Church in Seoul, South Korea, which boasts about 700,000 members, is the
> world’s largest Christian church.
> Historically, Asian churches in the United States have provided more
> than spiritual comfort. They have served as the building blocks for
> communities, teaching English to generations of new immigrants and providing
> social service referrals.
>
> NEW CHURCHES FOR NEWCOMERS
>
> As newcomers continue to arrive, more immigrant churches are springing
> up to serve them. Pastor Kieu Tuan Nam started the Vietnamese Liberty
> Christian Reformed Church to serve Silicon Valley’s large Vietnamese immigrant
> community. The East San Jose church also has a homework center to help
> immigrant children adjust.
> He tries to provide spiritual guidance to immigrants who are easily
> dazzled by the riches of America.
> “I think that they adapt to materialism faster than spiritual needs” he
> said.
> Asian-American Christians sometimes incorporate elements of Buddhism,
> Confucianism and Shintoism into their worship. Many feel retaining such
> practices does not conflict with Christian teachings; others disagree. One
> cannot escape there cultural aspects, Asian-American Christians say, just
> the same as one cannot escape the Judeo-Christian influence of living in the
> United States.
>
> TRADITIONS LIVE ON
>
> To celebrate the new year, the Wesley United Methodist Church in San
> Jose’s Japantown makes about 100,000 pieces of mochi, or rice cakes – a
> tradition with Shinto roots.
> “These events are very Japanese as well as Japanese-American,” said
> pastor Mariellen Sawada. “They are a part of our way of life, part of our
> living.”
> Many Japanese Christians believe in bachi, or bad karma.
> And many Vietnamese Catholics here have ancestral altars in their homes
> and attend Mass during Tet, said the Rev. Joseph Nguyen Van Thu. The San
> Jose diocese has 13 Vietnamese-language Masses a week. Many young Vietnamese-
> Americans are starting to assimilate, although it’s a gradual process, Thu
> said.
> But whatever language, the message remains the same.
> Said Thu: “The priests always like to help people find meaning in life,
> have hope, retain the old values of keeping families together through the
> tough times.
>
> Picture of baby dedication captioned: Rev. Stephen Wong of the Grace
> Community Church blesses 4-month-old Brandon Tam as his parents Susan and
> Kenny Tam pray.
>
> CHRISTIANS OF ASIAN DESCENT
>
> Since 1980, immigration has increased the number of Christians of Asian
> descent in the United States more than five-fold. Here are the estimates:
>
> 1970 540,000 Catholic 490,000 Protestant 1.03 million Total
> 1980 830,000 Catholic 970,000 Protestant 1.8 million Total
> 1990 2,600,000 Catholic 1,300,000 Protestant 3.9 million Total
> 1997 3,700,000 Catholic 1,800,000 Protestant 5.5 million Total
>
> >From 1990 through 1997, more than half of all Asian-Americans identified
> themselves as Christians. Here is a breakdown of their affiliations and those
> of all Americans in those years.
> All Americans Asian-Americans
> Protestant 60.8% 17.3%
> Catholic 24.2% 36.2%
> Jewish 2.1% 0.8%
> Other 3.6% 29.1%
> None 9.3% 16.5%
>
> Sources: Analysis of General Social Surveys and U.S. Census Bureau Data by
> Tom Smith of the National Opinion Research Center
>
> END OF ARTICLE.

——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:33:10 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NIV

Let me toss in my vote for the NIV. Anyone have any feedback on this recently
touted “New Living Translation”?

ken fong

ohbrudder wrote:

> >The NIV did not translate the Word of God, they interpreted
> > it. That is a terrible position to take if it is to be a translation.
> > How can one trust the translation of the NIV if it takes the liberty to
> > interject their own interpretation? I believe they also offended God for
> > they have now taken upon themselves to add or take away from God’s Word.
> > One should study the NIV like one would study the Living Bible; not as
> > the Word of God but as someone’s interpretation of God’s Word.
> > Personally, I would never recommend the NIV as the translation of the
> > Bible. Opps! Hope the strong statements are constructive.
>
> Ben,
>
> I had a professor who worked on the translation for the NIV. He
> described
> to us the meticulous, rigorous, intense process of this translation as
> it
> went through many review committees. Over a hundred distinguished
> scholars
> worked on the NIV (not just one as in the case of the Living Bible).
> Honestly, Ben, do you feel confident enough as a scholar to have been
> on that translation team?
>
> Also, all translations from the original langauges requires
> interpretation.
> >From language to language, different way of thinking and writing
> requires
> contextual considerations. The NASB is considered the most “literal”
> translation, yet still requires interpretation. Literal word for word is
> not
> necessarily the best translation anyway as words have different meanings
> in their cultural context and words changes meanings over time. Besides,
> there are many words in the original language that do not have an
> English equivalence; the translators have to choose English words to
> fit the context as they interpret the context.
>
> Personally, I find the NIV to be the best translation for clarity and
> accuracy
> of understanding. Anyway, frequently I use the NIV, NASB, KJV, Living
> Bible (a paraphrase, not translation) side by side anyway. For my
> students
> I “require” them to use the NIV; they don’t have easy access to
> reference
> works and the NIV is easy to read as well as conveying accurate
> understanding.
>
> bill leong

——————————

From: SKYLeung
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:09:54 EDT
Subject: Fwd: Re: CAC_Mail: NIV

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

– –part0_893963395_boundary
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Brother Ken,

From what I’ve read of and in it, the New Living Translation (NLT) is really
an update of the New Living Bible (NLB) and is still a paraphrase. The NLT
publishers have done a blitzkrieg marketing job though. It’s available in
Study, Application, Praise and Worship, One-Year, Student, Devotional, New
Believers, etc. editions.

Something on the horizon that rumors have begun mentioning is the New English
Translation (NET); I don’t think it has anything to do with the New English
Bible (NEB). The NET is a “from scratch” effort and is purported to be more
accurate than the NASB and more readable than the NIV. It’s supposedly one to
watch for.

I know – Bible-bot / Word Nerd!=)

In the Redeemer,
Stephen Leung

P.S.
Good to see you listed among scheduled PK speakers this year.

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From: Ken Fong
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Let me toss in my vote for the NIV. Anyone have any feedback on this recently
touted “New Living Translation”?

ken fong

ohbrudder wrote:

> >The NIV did not translate the Word of God, they interpreted
> > it. That is a terrible position to take if it is to be a translation.
> > How can one trust the translation of the NIV if it takes the liberty to
> > interject their own interpretation? I believe they also offended God for
> > they have now taken upon themselves to add or take away from God’s Word.
> > One should study the NIV like one would study the Living Bible; not as
> > the Word of God but as someone’s interpretation of God’s Word.
> > Personally, I would never recommend the NIV as the translation of the
> > Bible. Opps! Hope the strong statements are constructive.
>
> Ben,
>
> I had a professor who worked on the translation for the NIV. He
> described
> to us the meticulous, rigorous, intense process of this translation as
> it
> went through many review committees. Over a hundred distinguished
> scholars
> worked on the NIV (not just one as in the case of the Living Bible).
> Honestly, Ben, do you feel confident enough as a scholar to have been
> on that translation team?
>
> Also, all translations from the original langauges requires
> interpretation.
> >From language to language, different way of thinking and writing
> requires
> contextual considerations. The NASB is considered the most “literal”
> translation, yet still requires interpretation. Literal word for word is
> not
> necessarily the best translation anyway as words have different meanings
> in their cultural context and words changes meanings over time. Besides,
> there are many words in the original language that do not have an
> English equivalence; the translators have to choose English words to
> fit the context as they interpret the context.
>
> Personally, I find the NIV to be the best translation for clarity and
> accuracy
> of understanding. Anyway, frequently I use the NIV, NASB, KJV, Living
> Bible (a paraphrase, not translation) side by side anyway. For my
> students
> I “require” them to use the NIV; they don’t have easy access to
> reference
> works and the NIV is easy to read as well as conveying accurate
> understanding.
>
> bill leong

– –part0_893963395_boundary–

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:28:08 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Merc Article

Thanks to Ronnie Fong for typing in the whole article. You did us an
important service. I appreciate it.

A Question: Are De Tran and Arian E. Cha the signed authors of this
article? I want to make sure in case I might cite or quote it.

This is an interesting article for capturing the moment of emergence of
truly “Asian-American” churches. However, I have some reservations.

First about the last thing in the article — % of Asians are Christians,
etc: the General Social Survey (GSS) by the National Opinion Research
Center (NORC) is not a good data set for making estimates of Asian
Americans. GSS survey includes about 1,500 adults each year, among
them, Asians are too small a percentage to be a representative sample,
even if aggregating all in the years of 1990-1997. I once ran a
breakdown of all Chinese from mid-1970s to mid-1990s. Yes, the
proportion of Christians is high. But examining other factors, it shows
more American-borned people than in the total population. GSS % may be
indicative to certain extent, but should not be used to calculate
estimates. Therefore, I would not take the article’s estimates of Asian
Christians in the 1970-1997 as factual.

Second, some statements in the article are problematic. For example,
> For more than a century, most Asian churches in the United
States held
>on to the languages of its ancestors. By the 1980s, many added
English
>services that were smaller and geared toward the children.

Chinese churches that were established in the 19th century and early
20th century adopted English long time ago, and that has served not only
the second generation, but also third and fourth generation people. And
English might have been the dominant language in most Japanese churches.
Right?

> Immigrant churches tend to be Confucian, with a strict hierarchy.
Pan-
>Asian churches strive to be more democratic.

I think most Chinese immigrant churches are VERY democratic, or de facto
congregationalist, which is one of the reasons that immigrant pastors
are often get frustrated. They cannot claim their authority simply
being pastors, nor they have the institutional support from the
demoninational hierarchy.

>The first Asian
>Christians, like the European Protestants, came to American to flee
>religious persecution. Many went to Hawaii in the late 1800s and were
told by
>missionaries that they would become better Christians and be blessed
with
>riches in a Christian land.

This may be true for Korean Christian immigrants, but not all other
Asians.

Enough for now.

Fenggang
– —————————————————————
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

——————————

From: Rlfong
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:34:27 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Merc Article

In a message dated 4/30/98 6:31:06 PM !!!First Boot!!!, kenfong@earthlink.net
writes:

>
> Anyone else out there in CAC land skeptical about the stat where 50% of all
> Asians
> in America say they’re Christian? Boy, that is such a radical departure
> from the
> oft-cited figures of 3-5%.

Yup. The number reeks too high for my impressions. Just look around at your
co-workers and neighbors who are Asian and see how many claim to be Christian.
Nowhere near 50% from my observations in the SF Bay Area.

Ronnie Fong
Fremont, CA on the northern fringe of Silicon Valley

——————————

From: Rlfong
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:41:03 EDT
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Merc Article

In a message dated 4/30/98 7:29:48 PM !!!First Boot!!!, fyang@uh.edu writes:

> A Question: Are De Tran and Arian E. Cha the signed authors of this
> article? I want to make sure in case I might cite or quote it.

Fenggang
Yes, the article shows those two reporters on the byline as the authors.
Thanks for the insights on the GSSS. So, if 50% isn’t right, What are the
right numbers?
Ronnie.

——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:45:31 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Merc Article

Thanks, Fenggang! I was waiting to hear your take on those suspect stats.
I too felt that the authors took too many liberties with some of their
generalizations. And yes, JA churches have been using English for decades.

ken fong

Fenggang Yang wrote:

> Thanks to Ronnie Fong for typing in the whole article. You did us an
> important service. I appreciate it.
>
> A Question: Are De Tran and Arian E. Cha the signed authors of this
> article? I want to make sure in case I might cite or quote it.
>
> This is an interesting article for capturing the moment of emergence of
> truly “Asian-American” churches. However, I have some reservations.
>
> First about the last thing in the article — % of Asians are Christians,
> etc: the General Social Survey (GSS) by the National Opinion Research
> Center (NORC) is not a good data set for making estimates of Asian
> Americans. GSS survey includes about 1,500 adults each year, among
> them, Asians are too small a percentage to be a representative sample,
> even if aggregating all in the years of 1990-1997. I once ran a
> breakdown of all Chinese from mid-1970s to mid-1990s. Yes, the
> proportion of Christians is high. But examining other factors, it shows
> more American-borned people than in the total population. GSS % may be
> indicative to certain extent, but should not be used to calculate
> estimates. Therefore, I would not take the article’s estimates of Asian
> Christians in the 1970-1997 as factual.
>
> Second, some statements in the article are problematic. For example,
> > For more than a century, most Asian churches in the United
> States held
> >on to the languages of its ancestors. By the 1980s, many added
> English
> >services that were smaller and geared toward the children.
>
> Chinese churches that were established in the 19th century and early
> 20th century adopted English long time ago, and that has served not only
> the second generation, but also third and fourth generation people. And
> English might have been the dominant language in most Japanese churches.
> Right?
>
> > Immigrant churches tend to be Confucian, with a strict hierarchy.
> Pan-
> >Asian churches strive to be more democratic.
>
> I think most Chinese immigrant churches are VERY democratic, or de facto
> congregationalist, which is one of the reasons that immigrant pastors
> are often get frustrated. They cannot claim their authority simply
> being pastors, nor they have the institutional support from the
> demoninational hierarchy.
>
> >The first Asian
> >Christians, like the European Protestants, came to American to flee
> >religious persecution. Many went to Hawaii in the late 1800s and were
> told by
> >missionaries that they would become better Christians and be blessed
> with
> >riches in a Christian land.
>
> This may be true for Korean Christian immigrants, but not all other
> Asians.
>
> Enough for now.
>
> Fenggang
> —————————————————————
> Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
> Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
> University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
> Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:51:36 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: (Fwd) Asian Americans and Politics Proposal Paper

– ——- Forwarded Message Follows ——-
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:18:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Abigail Hing
Subject: Help! Asian Americans and Politics Proposal Paper
To: owner-cac-digest@emwave.net
Reply-to: Abigail Hing

Hello,

I’m a third year undergraduate and trying to write a proposal paper on
Asian American churches and politics.

I am currently approaching the issues of the impact of Asian American
churches on Asian American politics in this way:

*Church and Politics Background
catholic church (church universal)
political strengths of the African American church (ethnic church)

*Asian American Church
Doctrine leading to social awareness
plus Confuscian/family heritage leading to strong community
plus strengths of institution (leadership development, coalition)

*Political Impact
hypothesize on church impact/involvement in 5-6 political events/areas
in AA history (LA riots, hate crimes (Vincente Chin), immigration acts,
racism, local politics)

*Methodology

However, I am very stuck for resources — if anyone has any articles,
thoughts, suggestions for me, especially on what’s happened/happening in
Asian American churches, I would be very grateful.

Thanks! Please email me!

In Christ,
Abigail

– —
* CAC web site

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:09:56 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Merc Article

>Thanks for the insights on the GSSS. So, if 50% isn’t right, What
are the
>right numbers?

Ronnie,

At this time there are no solid survey data to make some estimates
concerning all Asians in the U.S. We know pretty sure that most Koreans
in the U.S. are Christians, probably around 70-75%. The survey by L.A.
Times last summer reports 32% Christians among the Chinese (including
Protestants and Catholics). Of course, if you have been on this list
for a while, you may know that many people (Sam Ling, James Chuck, etc.)
regard even that % is toooo high. Well, I don’t want to go over all the
arguments again, although I personally lean toward the LA Times
findings. I hope some day in the near future, there will be people who
want to sponsor a grand survey of Asian Americans or Chinese Americans
regarding their religious beliefs and practices. I think it will be
helpful to church-planting, planning, ministries, and in many other
aspects. If there is a fund to support such a survey, I like to
volunteer myself to conduct such a study, or assemble a team to do the
study. Any suggestions for resources?

Fenggang
– —————————————————————
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

——————————

From: Lawrence Lem
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:42:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Merc Article AND I am a Christian

Stephen,
Thank you very much for your postings!

> Under the CHRISTIANS OF ASIAN DESCENT section of the article, the actual make-
> up of Christians is more than 2:1, Catholics to Protestants. Perhaps this
> sheds additional light on why an adequate understanding of Justification by
> Faith is important.
This is quite true for many asians who grew up in Catholic schools, but
even in protestant circles, there is an astounding
lack of understanding of this truth that sets us free from a works
mentality.

> Talked to my twenty-something brother-in-law last night. He was expressing
> his dismay with the leaders of “our” generation. It was kind of “shocking”
> when he suggested that we “youngsters” are following in the ways of the older
> generation now – preoccupation with culture, political trends, and “marketing”
> at the expense of clear presentation of the Gospel. (I had given him a copy of
> the Cambridge Declaration which he said he agreed with whole-heartedly.)
As a twenty something, I can comment that I too am somewhat disturbed by
our preoccupation with culture and assimilation as a means of presenting
the gospel. In my opinion (from an ‘un-seminaried’ lay person) while
necessary for missions (which all ministries are), the focus on them turns
the attention on away from the real issues of what the gospel is and how
God call out for Himself a people to call His own.

> In
> particular, he said that one big difference he has seen between the Caucasian
> congregations and Asian congregations that he has attended is the preaching.
> Even among the Asian congregations that uphold expository preaching, there is
> often a paucity of regular, clear, communication of both the
> righteousness/holiness demanded by the Law and grace shown to sinners by God.
I have attended many Asian churches and have found the same to be true.
It is rare, almost unheard of to find an Asian church that stresses the
importance expository preaching…many that preach the Bible, but for the
sake of morality. It is not preaching that warms the souls hungry for
knowing a Holy God, only preaching that presses people to do more and to
change habits in their lives when the real need is for a
continuing transformation of our sinful hearts.

I echo Ben’s and Stephen’s sentiment that the ideas of justification and
sanctification are of prime importance for informing our ministries for
the Asian American (and all) churches. I have been quite busy of late so
I haven’t had time to put my thoughts out, but please continue the
dialog!!

Solo Deo Gloria,

Larry Lem
a brother in Christ
Golden Gate Christian Reformed Church
San Francisco

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:10:13 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Merc Article

Fenggang Yang wrote:
>
If there is a fund to support such a survey, I like to
> volunteer myself to conduct such a study, or assemble a team to do the
> study. Any suggestions for resources?
>

how much would you need to conduct such a survey?

bill leong

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:10:13 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Merc Article

Fenggang Yang wrote:
>
If there is a fund to support such a survey, I like to
> volunteer myself to conduct such a study, or assemble a team to do the
> study. Any suggestions for resources?
>

how much would you need to conduct such a survey?

bill leong

— End —

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