Nanjing Massacre; more on demographics

To: cac@emwave.net
——————————

From: wkmoy@juno.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:00:40 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: (long) ad: Looking for Worship/Music Director

Warm wishes for the Advent season!
I am posting an ad for our church re: Director of Music &
Worship.
If you know of anyone who might be qualified or interested,
please feel free to forward/ circulate them a copy &/or let me know & I
can forward them a copy. If you are near or part of a seminary, bible
college or other possible posting area or circulation, please feel free
to post/ circulate a copy. Your help is greatly appreciated.
Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions –
Thanks.
Peace as you celebrate Christ this Christmas. Wilbur

c/oCE Intern @ Sunset Chinese Baptist Church (415)665-5550
3635 Lawton St, San Francisco, CA 94122 FAX: 665-4575
e-mail: wkmoy@juno.com office: (415) 665-9749

DIRECTOR OF WORSHIP AND MUSIC
Job Description
Sunset Chinese Baptist Church

GENERAL DESCRIPTION
The director of worship & music for the Eng dept of our church has the
responsibility of developing & leading the worship & music ministry in a
growing & progressive church in San Francisco. Our church body is
currently about 900, and we have a vision to church branch to the
mid-peninsula area within the coming yr. Our goal is to expand our
ministry to 2,00 people in the next 5 yrs. We believe that music is
important, and we want our worship/ music ministry to be of a very high
caliber. We are seeking an individual who loves God, who is gifted in
music, and who would like to join our ministry staff to promote the
gospel of Jesus Christ in the San Francisco area. The position can be
either a part time, or a full time position.

AREAS of RESPONSIBILITY
To develop an overall music vision that will help to fulfill the vision
of our church
To train, recruit, and motivate our worship team, musicians, singers &
song leaders
To coordinate soloists, duets, ensembles, who will perform during our
worship services
To direct & coordinate our choral ministry
To supervise our technical crew & manage audio equipment
To develop a music ministry for our youth & children

QUALIFICATIONS
A dedicated believer in Jesus Christ
Musical degree
Vocal & keyboard skill, with a definite ability to lead worship in a
contemporary style
Administrative skills (ability to oversee & schedule 3 worship services @
2 different locations)
Ability to work w/ people
Conservative in theology, but progressive in philosophy of ministry
Experienced

If you are interested in applying for this position, please send your
resume to:
Pastor Jeff Louie
Sunset Chinese Baptist Church
3635 Lawton Street
San Francisco, CA 94122
(415) 665-5550 Fax: (415) 665-4575

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:25:39 -0700
Subject: CAC_Mail: fresh poetry–Happy Holidays!

christmas Tree blues

the sheriffs went to bethlehem to hold a law convention
were held up on their way through galilee
the crim’nals were barabbas with the mayor’s intervention
so the sheriffs took their anger out on me

the mayor slept with caesar and they stood around a fire
a bailiff brought salt bagels and orange tea
six soldiers heard them laughing when a rooster stretched its lungs
then they asked if it meant any thing to me

i said why the gen’rals too?
i do not resist
peace has come upon them
can’t you see
but they’ve built some sturdy silos on the ground behind your barns
with some missiles aimed at heaven just for me

and the people feel free now when they are not obligated
and they love to tame the wild, then decree
the rule of law is lacking in the jungle here today
but the laws are here for others, not for me

the sheriffs are my brothers tho, my people are on trial
as they fall to earth my rising stars shall be
barabbas wears a badge for now, will keynote the convention
it would help if he had had a word with me… g

——————————

From: Samuel Ling
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:20:23 -0800
Subject: CAC_Mail: A Christmas prayer

Dear Lord Jesus Christ,
Incarnate God-man and Risen King,

How silently, how silently
the gift which was You
was given!

May you silence our
engines and planners
that we may see,
that we may hear
and adore You again
this season.

Thank You for sensitizing us
to students,
to family,
to colleagues,
to consumerism and materialism
in this our culture.

Thank You for allowing us to
love,
speak,
listen,
mentor,
and care.
Every burden and
opportunity has been worthwhile, Lord.

We are tired,
we are grateful,
we feel like giving thanks
and crying
and laughing with our loved ones
all because
we have Someone to turn to
with our thanks, laughter and tears.

May we quietly, silently
return to You
the gift which is
ourselves.

>From our hearts, in Your name,
Amen.

——————————

From: darryl_fong@juno.com (darryl fong)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:58:38 -0800
Subject: CAC_Mail: Email

CACer’s,

Does anyone have a list of email addresses of the pastors of the known
Asian American churches, large or small. I would be interested in
contacting a few of them.

Thanks – Darryl Fong in California

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:10:48 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Demographics and % Christians

– —–Original Message—–
From: Samuel Ling
To: Fenggang Yang
Cc: JLoFEC@aol.com
Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997 1:13 AM
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Demographics and % Christians

>Fenggang and John,
>
>I am glad Fenggang is giving so much data and
>insights to this discussion.
>
>I believe that the surveys are skewed. As I said
>to John, only middle-class people would answer
>phone surveys. Thousands of restaurant, grocery,
>sweatshop and other blue collars don’t bother
>to answer phone surveys. That is why I don’t
>trust the phone surveys. (Is this your speculation,
>Fenggang?)
>
>A number of CCCOWE and other surveys have
>pointed out the same thing as you said, Fenggang:
># of Chinese Christians is definitely not keeping
>up with the explosive growth of the Chinese
>community in N. America.

Sam,

About the discrepancies between Chinese pastors’ estimates of Christians
among the Chinese in the U.S. (5-10%) and reports of social surveys and
polls (32%), my speculations are:

1. as you pointed out, blue collor Chinese workers would not be reached
by phones. In other words, it is possible that the percent of
Christians among lower-middle class Chinese is much lower than
middle-class Chinese. Surveys tend to inflate the percentage by
generalizing to the whole Chinese population when surveyed only
middle-class professionals.

2. however, I think Chinese pastors’ estimates are too low because these
were based on counting heads in a “typical” Sunday service attendance.
A “typical” Sunday is not a good indicator of how many are Christians.
First of all, not all Christians can regularly go to church on every
Sunday (sick, out of town, job schedule, etc.); second, not all
Christians attend church weekly (some may prefer attend church twice or
once a month); third, not all Chinese Christians go to Chinese churches
(very important aspect in light of recent CAC discussion of multi-ethnic
churches).

3. Moreover, the surveys/polls usually ask the question of religious
preference/identification. Some people may claim to be Christians but
do not affiliate with any particular church, or even are not baptized.
Thinking about “cultural Christians”, or those who have made the
decision (jue-zhi) but not yet been baptized (shou xi). They may
subscribe to some Christian ideas but not committed believers per se.
[By the way, these non-affiliated self-claimed Christians are good
targets of evangelism. With proper facility, these uncommitted
Christians can become practicing Christians. Agree?]

4. Of course, to answer survey/poll questions, some respondants may
simply give a response without telling the truth, or answering “I’m a
Christian” in order to comply to the perceived norm in the U.S.
(“because a majority of Americans are Christians, it may make me look
normal to claim my Chrisitan adherence”).

5. Nevertheless, the polls/surveys show that there are more Chinese
claim to be Christians than Buddhists or any other religion. Putting
this in a historical perspective, I see it extremely important. I want
to make the ponit that “Christianity has become the most practiced
religion among the Chinese in the United States.” If this statement is
true, then we have witnessed a radically revolutionary change in the
history of the Chinese. Instead of a “foreign religion” (yang jiao)
incompatible to Chinese culture, Chrisitianity is becoming a religion of
the Chinese. If the high percentage can be substantiated, we have much
to celebrate. Don’t you think so?

6. For ministers who want to mobilize resources for further
evangelization to the Chinese, either OBC or ABC, it is not necessary to
reduce the % as low as possible. Overall, there are still a majority, a
vast majority indeed, of Chinese are not Christians. How many is the
70% of 1.6 million (or 2 million by now)? Don’t you think you have
enough work to do even if only 70% of Chinese are left to be
evangelized? Thinking about Koreans. Surveys repeatedly report that
over 70% Koreans in the U.S. attend churches and most of them attend
weekly (or more than once a week!). However, Korean Christians have not
reduced their zeal to evangelize (right?). By sociological
understanding, (damn my mundane profession), a 75% could be the highest
% you can reach. The other 25% will not become Christians in a free
religious market no matter how well Christian evangelism you do.

Now the question is still statistics. Can we come up a good solid
estimate of the proportion of Christians among the Chinese in the United
States? The estimates so far are not satisfactory at all. The social
surveys/polls I know of are not really centered on religious beliefs and
practices of Chinese Americans. The religion question is only a
side-track one and the people who conducted those surveys/polls were not
really interested in religion. If there is resource, we really should
do a good survey of religious beliefs and practices of Chinese in the
U.S. That will facilitate ministry planning and strategy designing, I
think.

Fenggang
– —————————————————————
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

——————————

From: HarryWLew@aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:17:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: FYI: AA article & API Census Bureau stats

Dear Wilbur,

What are you trying to do? Perpetuate “the myth of the model minority”?

You’re going to draw out all the multicultural relativists and racialists who
will qualify the good news and tell us about the down side of those facts.

😉

Yours in Christ,
Harry Lew

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:15:46 -0600
Subject: CAC_Mail: %

CAC seems inactive lately. Is there any problem?

I’m reading an article, which has this info.

In Los Angeles Consolidated Methropolitan Statistical Area, 1990 Census
reported that there were 171,922 Chinese, among them, 90.0% were
foreign-born. Any comments?
– —————————————————————
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

——————————

From: leungs
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 08:40:00 E
Subject: CAC_Mail: Korean Connections

Greetings All,

It’s been QUIET lately!=)

I’d like to solicit information again on the Mark’s Upper Room Movement
(henceforth referred to as MURM). Perhaps you know some Korean Americans
whose churches have dealt with them. Would you pass their names and how I
might contact them, please?

I’ve also heard it mentioned that most KAC’s tie into a particular web site
to share information. Any idea what the URL is of this popular “home
page?” I’m hoping there might be information on the MURM there as well.

MURM representatives are back now for the second time wooing our church to
join them. They are Christ/salvation-centered, placing a premium on
evangelism. We hear that there are charges that they are heretical or
cultic. Yet, what they have presented to us is not un-Biblical, just
possibly reductionistic (not encouraging regard for the whole counsel of
God). I am afraid they simply haven’t tipped their hand yet.

MURM started in Korea and has migrated to the US, along with many other
places in Asia. It is reported to have been denounced by some presbytries
in Korea and to have caused a significant number of “splits” in Korean
Churches here in the US. Of course, the MURM representatives dismiss this
as “political” attacks motivated by fear from churches who have lost members
to the movement and congregations that have left to embrace them.

What’s worse is that now our pastors and elders are already split on whether
to continue granting MURM further audience. Our Sr. Pastor finds MURM very
appealing, and had convinced most of our veteran elders of the same. Our
other pastors, trained in US seminaries, have serious reservations, as do
our newer/younger elders who are frequent listeners to shows like “The Bible
Answer Man,” and are more aware of cults and the way they operate.

Enough said. Any information would be much appreciated.

Prayerfully,
Stephen

P.S. Apologies to anyone trying to reach me on my personal e-mail. The
hard drive is shot, and I’ve been too busy to replace it.

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:12:50 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: ministry opportunity in Mountain View CA

Date sent: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:49:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Kenneth Chan
Subject: ministry opportunity

Our church, The Chinese Church in Christ (of Mountain View, CA) has two
opening right know. Actually, both are new positions since our church
has been growing and is in need of full-time staff for these areas:

1. Youth Pastor
* we have approximately 50-60 youth (comprised of
both junior and senior high) who are in need of a full-time (willing to
consider part-time as well) youth pastor to help shepherd, organize and
minister to them. Also work with parents and volunteer counselors.
* contact Ken Chan 415-968-2900 or email

2. Children’s Director
* we have about 90 kids ranging in age from pre-k
to 5th grade. Director would organize Sunday school curriculm (for
kids), train Sunday school teachers (for kids), coordinate Vacation
Bible School as well as other special events for kids.
* contact Pastor Enoch Lau 415-968-2900

——————————

From: leungs
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 08:47:00 E
Subject: CAC_Mail: China Watch

For those who are interested, I’d also like to pass on the following
information about China Watch. It’s a “mailing list” hosted at XC.org

——
Circulation: 579
Published by: Eternity’s Edge (http://www.frontiermissions.org)
China briefing page: http://www.frontiermissions.org/easia/china/china.p
html
Editor: Brent Fulton, China Services Coordinating Office
Managing Editor: Justin Long, Eternity’s Edge
Confidence scales: Incorrect, Low (Rumor), Moderate, High.
Confirmed: no confirmation, 1 confirmation, multiple confirmations.
We recommend not publishing anything with less than a High confidence.
“Incorrect” indicates faulty information presently circulating which should
be refuted.
If you have an item which you think would be of interest, email it to the
editors via JustinLong@xc.org.

=-=-=
To leave this conference, send “UNSUBSCRIBE china-watch” to hub@XC.Org

___

Regards,
Stephen

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:36:48 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: FYI: Houses of Worship Project

Houses of Worship Project Creates Christmas Hymns on the Web

PITTSBURGH–(BUSINESS WIRE FEATURES)–Dec. 15, 1997–Christmas
hymns, including “O Little Town of Bethlehem” have now appeared on the
Web for anyone in the world to play and sing.

The hymns are taken from an 1886 Christian Hymnal Book and are played
strictly in industry standard MIDI form for long play. Also, the hymn
pages
were scanned in a form for reading off the PC or TV screen and also for
printing. Families in their homes and small church groups can now sing
Christmas hymns played strictly by the hymnal.

The hymn pages were created by the Houses of Worship Project,
http://www.housesofworship.net. This project, also called the HOW project, has
offered editable Web pages for all 300,000 churches in the United States
and
Canada. Since its introduction in September 1997, many thousands of
churches
have taken to editing their Web pages!

A first sponsor of this project has been the American Bible Society
with
a $5,000,000 grant, but more are being sought. According to Mike Maus,
Director of Communications for the American Bible Society, “The purpose
of
HOW is to develop a primary electronic communications backbone to serve
the
Christian churches in North America. Once we have a measure of success
in
this, we will be looking to expanding the backbone over the entire world
community of about two billion Christians and their churches.” The
American
Bible Society has served local churches in the United States and,
through its
partners, the world, for almost 200 years. “It will continue serving
churches and their needs for scripture through the next millennium,”
noted
Maus.

“Between forty and a hundred new church editors sign up a day,”
remarked
Robert Thibadeau, a faculty member in the School of Computer Science at
Carnegie Mellon University, “but we need to reach a large critical mass
in
order to provide the kinds of connections among churches and
congregations
that the Web is capable of delivering.” The hope of this group is that
a
pastor or youth member from every church in North America will take the
few
minutes needed to keep their basic church bulletin information up to
date on
the HOW pages.

On the question of whether HOW was simply a Web hosting service for
churches, Dr. Thibadeau responded, “The HOW pages should only be a
beginning
or an adjunct to a local church getting on the Web. If and when a local
church has its own Web site it can link to this from its HOW pages,
thereby
providing more access to its own Web site or, perhaps, the Web site of
its
denomination. The HOW pages are there for us to simplify the search to
find
the right church, the right church event, or to allow churches to
establish
communications among themselves.”

For questions and further information on the Houses of Worship
Project,
contact webmaster@housesofworship.net or 1-888-437-3746.

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:35:29 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: FYI: Constitutional Religious Freedom

CONGRESS MUST ACT TO RESTORE
CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE OF
RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, FRC SAYS

NATION’S TOP PRO-FAMILY GROUPS AND LEGAL EXPERTS RELEASE
STATEMENT ON RELIGIOUS FREEDOM

WASHINGTON, D.C. — “The pervasive problem of judicial
tyranny continues to stymie those who wish to exercise their
right to express their religious beliefs in the public square,”
Family Research Council President Gary Bauer said Thursday.
“Federal Judge Ira DeMent’s sweeping injunction against
religious expression in Alabama’s DeKalb County school system
is just the latest in a long series of erroneous decisions.
Earlier this year, an Alabama state judge declared that the
Ten Commandments could not be displayed in a public place.
Congress must act now to assert its rights, as a co-equal
branch of government, to protect religious expression in
Alabama and across the nation.”

In an attempt to prevent what he calls, “flagrant judicial
tyranny over religious expression,” FRC’s Bauer released a
document entitled, “A Statement on Religious Freedom and the
Right of the People to Acknowledge the Creator.” It is
signed by pro-family leaders, such as Dr. James Dobson of
Focus on the Family, Don Hodel of Christian Coalition, Chuck
Colson of Prison Fellowship, Governor Robert Casey of
Campaign for the American Family, Don Wildmon of American
Family Association, Rev. Keith Fournier of Catholic Alliance,
Dr. D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries, Dr. William
Donohue of Catholic League, Rev. Louis Sheldon of Traditional
Values Coalition, and Beverly LaHaye of Concerned Women for
America and by legal experts, including Professor Robert
George of Princeton University, Professor Gerard Bradley of
the University of Notre Dame, Professor David Smolin of
Samford University, Bernard Dobranski of Catholic University
Law School, and Pat Nolan of Justice Fellowship. The
statement’s purpose is to lay the groundwork for federal
legislation that:

“(1) erects a federalism shield to protect the authority of
state institutions, such as state courts and public schools,
to acknowledge the Creator by, for example, posting the Ten
Commandments, and (2) preserves the right of individual
citizens in these institutions and other public forums freely
to express their religious faith, so long as they refrain
from interfering with the legitimate rights of others.”

The individuals and groups assert within the statement that
decisions such as those in Alabama “assault central principles
of our tradition of ordered liberty – principles which are
rooted in belief in a Creator and Judge to whom all human
beings and governments are accountable. Such an assault
demands a measured yet firm response from the American people
and their elected representatives.” Legislative language
has not yet been finalized; however, the organizations plan
to seek Congressional sponsors early in the 1998 session.

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:56:00 -0600
Subject: CAC_Mail: shocking & depressing

Dear friends,

While I realize that you may have been getting into the holiday
celebration mode, I could not help but calling your attention to the
recent media reports and special collections on the occasion of the 60th
anniversary of the Nanking Massacre. History should not be forgotten.

Dec. 13, 1997 marks the 60th anniversary of the Nanjing Massacre by the
Japanese Imperial Army in 1937-38. After the Japanese troops entered
Nanjing, the then-Chinese capital was in a bloodbath for six to eight
weeks; it is believed that 240,000 to 350,000 Chinese, many of them
innocent civilians, were killed. There have been some media coverage
recently. Please visit these sites:

ABC News Nightline Dec. 11, 1997: The Good Nazi
Ted Koppel: “in 1937 and 38, soldiers of the Japanese army killed in the
most horrifying fashion more people in the Chinese city of Nanking than
would die in the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Without
history we have no context. Without context, we can never begin to
understand the why of what nations do.”
http://www.abcnews.com/onair/nightline/html_files/transcripts/ntl1211.ht
ml,

John Hopkins Magazine, Nov. 1997:Nightmare in Nanking
“In the days after the Japanese invasion, Chinese soldiers and civilians
were mowed down by machine guns, used in decapitation contests, and
burned alive.”
http://www.jhu.edu/~jhumag/1197web/nanking.html,

China News Digest: Nanjing Massacre Museum:
“This is an archive for the historical documents and still photography
related to the the Nanjing Massacre, and other atrocities committed by
Japanese army in China during WW II.”
http://www.cnd.org:8026/njmassacre/, and

Princeton University:The 60th Anniversary of the Nanking Massacre
“An exhibition of photographs and missionary documents of the Nanking
Massacre”
http://www.princeton.edu/~nanking/
– —————————————————————
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:23:28 -0600
Subject: CAC_Mail: shocking & depressing

Dear friends,

While I realize that you may have been getting into the holiday
celebration mode, I could not help but calling your attention to the
recent media reports and special collections on the occasion of the 60th
anniversary of the Nanking Massacre. History should not be forgotten.

Dec. 13, 1997 marks the 60th anniversary of the Nanjing Massacre by the
Japanese Imperial Army in 1937-38. After the Japanese troops entered
Nanjing, the then-Chinese capital was in a bloodbath for six to eight
weeks; it is believed that 240,000 to 350,000 Chinese, many of them
innocent civilians, were killed. There have been some media coverage
recently. Please visit these sites:

ABC News Nightline Dec. 11, 1997: The Good Nazi
Ted Koppel: “in 1937 and 38, soldiers of the Japanese army killed in the
most horrifying fashion more people in the Chinese city of Nanking than
would die in the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Without
history we have no context. Without context, we can never begin to
understand the why of what nations do.”
http://www.abcnews.com/onair/nightline/html_files/transcripts/ntl1211.ht
ml,

John Hopkins Magazine, Nov. 1997:Nightmare in Nanking
“In the days after the Japanese invasion, Chinese soldiers and civilians
were mowed down by machine guns, used in decapitation contests, and
burned alive.”
http://www.jhu.edu/~jhumag/1197web/nanking.html,

China News Digest: Nanjing Massacre Museum:
“This is an archive for the historical documents and still photography
related to the the Nanjing Massacre, and other atrocities committed by
Japanese army in China during WW II.”
http://www.cnd.org:8026/njmassacre/, and

Princeton University:The 60th Anniversary of the Nanking Massacre
“An exhibition of photographs and missionary documents of the Nanking
Massacre”
http://www.princeton.edu/~nanking/
– —————————————————————
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

——————————

From: wkmoy@juno.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:04:21 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Article: SJMerc,12/10/97 “AA Young Better Educated”

CAC: Sr pastor gave me a copy of the article I was ref. to last week . .
.
Hope it is helpful – looking forward to continuing, fruitful,
ministry-related discussions . . .
The peace of Christ thru Advent, Christmas & the New Yr, Wilbur
__________________________________________________________
SJMercury News, Washington Wed, Dec 10, 1997

ASIAN AMERICAN YOUNG FOUND BETTER-EDUCATED

Asian-Americans living in this country tend to be younger and
better educated than other Americans. They are more likely to live in
cities and less likely to be divorced, Census Bureau figures show. A
profile of the nation’s, 9,653,000 Asians and Pacific Islanders was
released by the bureau Tuesday, based on the March 1996 Current
Population Survey. The group represents about 3.7 percent of the
population.

Findings included:
– – Asians are concentrated in the West, with 55 percent living in that
part of the country, compared with 22 percent of the total population.
– – Ninety-four percent of Asian-Americans live in metropolitan areas,
compared with 80 percent of the total population.
– – The median age of Asians and Pacific Islanders is 29.8 years. The
nation’s median age is 33.9 years. Median means half of the people are
older and half younger than that age.
– – Just 3.8 percent are currently divorced, compared with 8.9 percent of
all Americans 15 and over. About the same share are currently married
and living with their spouse – 53.5 percent for Asians and 53.4 percent
overall – but more Asians have never married, 34.8 percent compared with
27.5 percent.
– – For people age 25 and over, 41.7 percent of Asians have a college
degree, compared with 23.6 percent of the general population [N870]
(End of article)

From Mercury News wire services
The number in brackets after each brief is a code that can be used to
obtain the full text of the story or news release in Mercury Center
_____________________________________________________
Other/helpful article . . . about the Bay Area:
“Bay Area’s future looks older, crowded”
– – Predictions: More jobs, bigger housing crunch, graying populace

I believe this is from the same day (12/10) SJ Mercury . . .
sketches Bay Area outlook; shows graphs for yr 2000 & 2020.
_____________________________________________________
c/oCE Intern @ Sunset Chinese Baptist Church (415)665-5550
3635 Lawton St, San Francisco, CA 94122 FAX: 665-4575
e-mail: wkmoy@juno.com office: 665-9749

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:00:03 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Cal Thomas article

Dear CACers:

The following touches upon some the issues I’ve mentioned in the
recent posts but that Cal Thomas has articulated even better than
I have.

In Him,
J. Chang
– ——————————————————————————————–
Cal Thomas — Ethicists Abandon Sacred Standard

THE birth of the McCaughey septuplets produced joy and
thanksgiving for the couple and their families. It has also produced a
debate among ”medical ethicists,” some of whom argue that Bobbi
McCaughey should have aborted (euphemistically a ”fetal reduction”) in
order to limit the risk to the babies and reduce the cost to the
taxpayers
of giving birth to so many children. One can almost hear Mr. Scrooge
advocating the death of the poor in order to reduce the surplus
population.
”Ethics” is ”the discipline dealing with what is good and
bad
and with moral duty and obligation.” This implies a standard. The
McCaugheys accepted a standard when they said that God had a plan for
their children, and they never considered killing one or more of them.
Medical ethicists abandoned such a standard when they endorsed abortion
”choice.” That Bobbi McCaughey made a choice favoring life over death
isn’t enough for them. They have other concerns.
Where the ethical line is drawn, and whether it is drawn with
indelible or disappearing ink, is relevant to what the medical profession
will be allowed to do to the rest of us in the future. As medicine costs
more, it will be necessary to consider whether life’s value can
depreciate, like a car.
In a Wall Street Journal article we learn that ”fetal
reduction” is becoming a common procedure for women who face multiple
births. We also learn that doctors who advise aborting one or more babies
because of ”danger” to the others are frequently wrong. Often the
babies
left safely to gestate are born healthy, or are assisted to health by
modern technology. We learn that some mothers selectively ”reduce” for
convenience. As one doctor notes, ”If reducing from one to zero is
acceptable in this society, then why not from two to one?” Some
ethicists
and commentators question the ”right” of women to have multiple births,
suggesting the government may wish to regulate the practice. This sounds
like China’s policy of limiting couples to one child, with forced
abortion
for those who violate the law.
What should be even more alarming is that the acceptance of
abortion has produced threats to other categories of human life, just as
former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop predicted it would. Prof. Steven
Pinker, director of the Center for Cognitive Neuroscience at the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, in an article for the Nov. 2 New
York Times Magazine, defended infanticide. Pinker suggested that the
active or passive killing of newly born babies should be treated
differently from the killing of an adult because an infant is not yet a
full-fledged person. Pinker contends that we must ”think the unthinkable
and ask if we, like many societies and like the mothers (who commit
infanticide) themselves, are not completely sure whether a neonate is a
full person.”
Responding to Pinker’s article in a ”Dear Colleague” letter,
Sen. Dan Coats, R-Ind., and Rep. Joe Pitts, R-Pa., say that Pinker
”assaults the moral standard Western civilization has built over two
millennia to protect children … we believe that when such staggering
and
misguided statements are offered in the cultural marketplace, they must
be
refuted convincingly and repeatedly.”
One category of life cannot be declassified without endangering
others. If the unborn can be aborted, then why not kill the newly born
and
the elderly if they become ”inconvenient”? If there is no God to
govern,
then why shouldn’t government or medical ethicists or public opinion be
our god?
On the eve of the 25th anniversary of Roe vs. Wade, we are
regressing to a raw, purely arbitrary utilitarianism increasingly hostile
to the notion that life is sacred and unique. The grand irony may be that
the generation imposing this philosophy on our nation may turn out to be
victims of it.
– —
Roe v. Wade: 25 Years of Life Denied
http://www.prolife..org/rvw

——————————

From: TSTseng
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:04:20 EST
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: Demographics and % Christians

Fenggang:

Here is some speculation about the statistical discrepancies. Tell me what
you think…

Chuck and others within the Chinese church scene get their numbers by
measuring membership or average worship attendance (and only Protestants).
The sociological survey, however, asks only self-identification, so far as I
know. So it may be that 32% of Chinese surveyed called themselves Christians,
but either attend non-Chinese churches or don’t go to church at all.

Why this is the case? Perhaps there’s not enough theological and ideological
diversity (or space) among our Chinese churches to “scratch where enough
Chinese itch”? Perhaps our churches and leaders are too apolitical or
politically conservative? I’ve interviewed a number of Chinese who grew up in
Chinese churches and left after college – most gave these types of responses.

BTW, in the Chinese Church Handbook published by CCCOWE and edited by Gail Law
in 1982, the estimates of percentage of North American Chinese Protestants was
4.6%, which was second or third highest compared to Chinese Protestants in
other countries where there is a significant population of Chinese.

Tim Tseng

In a message dated 12/7/97 9:41:45 AM, fyang@uh.edu wrote:

<>

– ————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com
– ————————————————————

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:27:50 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Work & Word

Hi Ted and Bill;
and all CACers who remembers Ted’s “Please expand..’social action ..as
loving God with all our strength.'”

By “social action” I would understand this to be helping mankind, such as
feeding the hungry, caring for orphans and widows, healing the sick, and
such charitable works. This would be loving mankind. I would not
understand loving mankind as the fulfilling of loving God with all my
strength. The second great commandment is to love my neighbor as myself,
but that is not the same as the greatest commandment.

Our Lord spoke of visiting Him while in prison and feeding Him while
hungry was fulfilled by doing it to one of His people. So here we can do
good to Him by doing good to His people (man). This is because His
people are representatives of Him. But this is not true of all mankind.
God’s desire for my love relation with believers are far greater and
dearer than with unbelievers. See if the Scriptural exhortations to
“social action” are not limited to God’s people.

The Psalmist asked God, “What is man that You are mindful of him?” (Psa.
8:4) He is acknowledging that man is too insignificant for God to
bother with him That God loves him is not because man is that
significant but because God of Himself choose to be gracious to man. So,
“What is man” that my love for him can in any way be the fulfilling of my
love for God and that of all my strength? How can man take the place of
God?

There is a more fundamental concept involved here. It is the concept of
being God-centered or being man-centered. If the main concern is the
needs and well-being of man; if the purpose and function of God is to
love man and care for and provide for him; if the greatest hope, the
kingdom of God is the utopia of mankind then we are man-centered, … and
God is our genie. We can shout that we are God-centered, but the truth
is we are man-centered. This is not the next best creed to being
God-centered. No! It is the deepest blackness of sin. Was this not
Satan’s temptation to Eve, that she would be like god? Man-centerness is
to put man in the place of God.

In loving God, should I use $10 million to feed thousands of staring
people or to build a magnificent monument to God? Didn’t someone used
an ointment that is worth a year’s wage and poured it over Jesus’ feet
instead of selling it and use the money to help the poor?

Concerning prayer:
What do you think about this definition? “Prayer is the expression of my
faith.”

Another thot: There is no power in prayer. Prayer is not a being that
can do things. Nor does more prayer make the “being” more powerful. The
power is God. Our prayer is to God, trusting in Him; not in prayers.

A follower of the absolutely sovereign God to Whom belongs all glory and
praise and all the strength and mind and heart and soul of my love.

Ben

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:27:50 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: I Tim. 3

Ray

Thanks for your posting on Nov. 28th. I appreciate the corrections. I
was not careful in some of my statements as I was focused on a particular
issue. Elders and pastors are not the same, synonymous. The elders are
the overseers of the church. It is an office of the church. The pastor
is one of the function in the church, as are evangelist and teacher and
apostle. Not all elders are pastors but I would think (rational, not
biblical) all pastors should be an elder. That is why I mentioned about
the pastor as if he was an elder. If the pastor is not an elder, then
these qualifications are not applicable to him.

What did Paul mean when he wrote, the elder must be “the husband of one
wife.” Did he have two qualifications in mind? 1) that he must be a
husband and 2) that he being a husband must have only one wife. When
Paul wrote, “keeping his children under control with all dignity,” did he
have two qualifications in mind? 1) that he must have children and 2)
that he keep them under control with all dignity? One could argue that
he had both qualifications in mind. But I do not see how it violate the
grammar nor the context to understand he has only one qualification in
mind. I am not arguing for him to SHOULD have meant that. I am saying
the interpretation allows and not only allows but also fits that
understanding.

Whether Paul, Timothy and Titus were elders or not is not critical to the
understanding of the elder’s qualification. I am not sure I would say
they were not elders based on the fact that there are no recorded claims
on their part. Silence is not always a sufficient argument.

A distinction that has helped me concerning spiritual gifts is that there
is the responsibility of a function and there is a spiritual gift of that
function. For example, there is the responsibility of evangelizing which
every Christian has and there is the gift of evangelizing which only some
Christian has. Every Christian has the responsibility to give but only
some has the gift of giving. Every Christian can speak for God but only
some have the gift of a prophet.

Did I understand your comments? Are my responses way off base?

Thanks for your input and encouragements. Keep it up and we will learn
and grow together.

Thereby growing in unity,
Ben

——————————

From: HarryWLew@aol.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:35:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Demographics and % Christians

Dear CACers,

I think part of the problem in gauging the number of Chinese American
Christians is that we are only looking for them in predominately Asian
American or Chinese American churches.

I suspect that many of us are attending regular American churches. This may
be true of mostly ABCs but it can be true of OBCs as well. In my middle-size
midwestern city there is a relatively small Chinese population of about three
to four thousand. There is only one Chinese church service in the area. It is
held on Sunday afternoons and usually attended by less than 30 people.

But I personally know that there are many more Chinese believers than that.
Where do they go? To predominately white churches, OBC’s as well as ABC’s.

Whenever I get invited to speak on a college or university campus, or attend
a campus ministry conference, the Asian American students who want to talk to
me because I am an Asian American almost always want to ask me at least one
of three questions. One of them concerns church. Typically the question goes
like this:

“When I go home this summer my pastor wants me to help lead the youth group.
But I really want to visit other churches. I don’t get much out of the
Chinese [you can substitute Korean or Vietnamese] language service and I
can’t relate to my OBC pastor’s preaching. I’ve been attending the
InterVarsity [you can substitute Campus Crusade, Chi Alpha, etc.] meetings on
campus, love the worship style, and am getting spiritually fed in a way I
don’t get at home. What am I going to do?”

Despite the hullabaloo about racism (greatly overexaggerated by the left),
Asian Americans are assimilating into American society much more than most of
us realize. This is not what my OBC father would have wanted to hear. Many of
us depend upon our racial group identity remaining intact for our livelihood.

If you can believe all those census statistics about Asian Americans marrying
whites–the ultimate sign of social mutual acceptance–assimilation is
happening on a grand scale. (By the way, that’s another question Asian
American students ask me: “What about interracial dating and marriage?
There’s this white guy in my InterVarsity chapter. I think he’s interested in
me and he’s really nice, but I’m scared about what my folks will say…”

I don’t know of any denomination that keeps statistics about how many Chinese
members they have. My denomination knows how many Chinese pastors and
predominately Chinese congregations it has, and how many members are in those
Chinese churches. But I doubt it has ever asked all its churches for an
ethnic breakdown of their membership. But if it did, I wouldn’t be surprised
if the Chinese members in its predominately white churches outnumber the
Chinese members in its predominately Chinese churches.

Yours in Christ,
Rev. Harry Lew

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:57:01 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: shocking & depressing

Dear Fenggang:

Thank you for the websites. Yes, the 13 Dec 37 date has been sitting on
my notice board for quite some time now. No, I can never forget, nor
should the world.

The Nightline “Good Nazi” story is interesting, on a kind of Oskar
Schindler in Chinese context. But (1) we’ve had too many “good Nazi”
stories lately, and there is something unhealthy about the phenomenon;
and more important, (2) the story diverts the real issue at hand, the
Rape itself.

How should we Christians, laypersons and pastors alike, react to such
enormity in such inexpressible dimension? Words fail me.

It is actually quite fitting that you brought up the topic during
Christmas, Fenggang. I don’t look upon Christmas as an occasion for
celebration. Christmas is, rather, the first of a two-stage
self-humiliation of God which ends with Christ’s death on the cross
(Phil 2.6-8). Christmas is an overture to a tragic act that crescendoes
in the ultimate bloody act of Good Friday.

Get rid of the maudlin Baby Jesus cult
and we see the Lord of the Universe
willfully emptying the divine self,
taking on the form of a fetus,
subjecting himself to the mortal danger of birth,
being reduced to an oh-so-common pale infant.

All this–humiliation and suffering–is but prelude to divine pains on
the cross.

Our God suffers.

Our God suffers as hundreds of thousands of Nanjing people were
slaughtered.

Our God suffers as millions more perished in concentration camps.

Have we hope? Yes, but only on Easter morning.

Then, and only then, we celebrate.

Otherwise, we have no cause to boast.

Sze-kar

——————————

From: leungs
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 09:31:00 E
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: shocking & depressing

Dear Brother Sze-kar,

I apologize, but I can’t resist a reply. I clearly understand your point
about God’s humiliation and suffering. It is indeed the most mind-boggling
aspect of the incarnation. Neither do I disagree that God suffers. I
appreciate the reminder. But, I dare say we can’t proverbially “toss out
the baby with the bathwater.” While appreciating the pain on the Giver’s
part, there is celebration on the recipients’ part. Quoting from Luke
2:10-14 (NASB):

But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good
news of great joy which will be for all the people; for today in the city of
David there has been born for you a Savior, who is [1]Christ the Lord. “This
will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in
a [2]manger.” And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the
heavenly host praising God and saying, “Glory to God in the highest, And on
earth peace among men [3]with whom He is pleased.”

[1]I.e. Messiah
[2]Or feeding trough
[3]Lit of good pleasure; or of good will

But, you are right about the true celebration taking place on Easter. I
once likened the gift of Messiah to a bond or treasury bill given by a
parent to a young child. It’s hard for the child to fully value the gift
when the paper note is first handed to him. He is told that it is a gift
and that he should be thankful. Later, at an appointed time of maturity,
the note is to be cashed. For a variety of reasons, the exchange can be
seen as a untimely loss. But, does the pay-off far exceed the child’s
appreciation of the gift when he first received it – even if he did
“understand” the face value! This is a limited illustration, but the
promise was issued in the Garden, the present arrived at Christmas, the
mind-blowing pay-off was realized at Easter.

Yes, “Get rid of the maudlin Baby Jesus cult and we see the Lord of the
Universe” in suffering and humiliation. But, there is still cause to
rejoice…

Merry, hopeful, Christmas (for all the people),
Stephen

———-
From: Sze-kar Wan
To: CAC
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: shocking & depressing
Date: Thursday, December 18, 1997 2:57AM

Dear Fenggang:

Thank you for the websites. Yes, the 13 Dec 37 date has been sitting on
my notice board for quite some time now. No, I can never forget, nor
should the world.

The Nightline “Good Nazi” story is interesting, on a kind of Oskar
Schindler in Chinese context. But (1) we’ve had too many “good Nazi”
stories lately, and there is something unhealthy about the phenomenon;
and more important, (2) the story diverts the real issue at hand, the
Rape itself.

How should we Christians, laypersons and pastors alike, react to such
enormity in such inexpressible dimension? Words fail me.

It is actually quite fitting that you brought up the topic during
Christmas, Fenggang. I don’t look upon Christmas as an occasion for
celebration. Christmas is, rather, the first of a two-stage
self-humiliation of God which ends with Christ’s death on the cross
(Phil 2.6-8). Christmas is an overture to a tragic act that crescendoes
in the ultimate bloody act of Good Friday.

Get rid of the maudlin Baby Jesus cult
and we see the Lord of the Universe
willfully emptying the divine self,
taking on the form of a fetus,
subjecting himself to the mortal danger of birth,
being reduced to an oh-so-common pale infant.

All this–humiliation and suffering–is but prelude to divine pains on
the cross.

Our God suffers.

Our God suffers as hundreds of thousands of Nanjing people were
slaughtered.

Our God suffers as millions more perished in concentration camps.

Have we hope? Yes, but only on Easter morning.

Then, and only then, we celebrate.

Otherwise, we have no cause to boast.

Sze-kar

——————————

From: drwong1@juno.com (Richard L Wong)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 22:19:23 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: Demographics and % Christians

Harry: You made some interesting observations about the Asian-American
culture. I can relate to a couple of your points based on my own
personal observations and experiences: First, I think American-born
Chinese have been leaving Chinese churches and gravitating towards
“mainstream” movements (e.g. InterVarsity, Campus Crusade, Presbyterian
Church USA, Promise Keepers etc.) because the Chinese churches and the
sermons and worship services were oriented towards their parents’
generation. Unless the Chinese churches address some of the cultural
needs of the ABCs, the Chinese churches will continue to lose members.

Second, modern Asian-American-oriented Christian movements (e.g. JEMS,
Asian-American Christian Fellowship, etc.) have growing across the
country (DC Chuang recently posted a list of those churches on this
website), and Chinese churches that have been willing to experiment with
ABC-oriented worship services have been able to retain the ABC
generation. Why? Perhaps because it provides a “comfort zone” where
American-born Chinese can be free to spend time with others who are just
like them, where they can find and worship God on their own terms, and
find their Christian identity. A lot of the ABCs I’ve met had grown up
in Chinese churches and found a certain comfort level from being around
fellow Chinese, but were looking for something that recognized their
“American” cultural heritage as well.

My vision is to have a church that can position itself to provide a haven
not just for Chinese-speaking Christians, but also for these ABCs who
have grown up in the Chinese culture, but who also need an outlet to
express their American culture as well. I would like to see a church
where a family can come to worship AS A FAMILY, with each family member
able to attend a service in their language, with worship services and
sermons recognizing each congregation’s own unique culture. I guess I
have a burden for those ABCs I’ve met who were raised in a church but who
later dropped out because church “wasn’t for them.” I don’t think church
wasn’t for them. I just think that the traditional church couldn’t adapt
fast enough to meet their needs.

Richard Wong
Arlington, VA
drwong1@juno.com
Chinese Christian Church of Greater Washington, DC

On Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:35:20 -0500 (EST) HarryWLew@aol.com writes:
>Dear CACers,
>
>I think part of the problem in gauging the number of Chinese American
>Christians is that we are only looking for them in predominately Asian
>American or Chinese American churches.
>
>I suspect that many of us are attending regular American churches.
>This may
>be true of mostly ABCs but it can be true of OBCs as well. In my
>middle-size
>midwestern city there is a relatively small Chinese population of
>about three
>to four thousand. There is only one Chinese church service in the
>area. It is
>held on Sunday afternoons and usually attended by less than 30 people.
>
>But I personally know that there are many more Chinese believers than
>that.
>Where do they go? To predominately white churches, OBC’s as well as
>ABC’s.
>
>Whenever I get invited to speak on a college or university campus, or
>attend
>a campus ministry conference, the Asian American students who want to
>talk to
>me because I am an Asian American almost always want to ask me at
>least one
>of three questions. One of them concerns church. Typically the
>question goes
>like this:
>
>”When I go home this summer my pastor wants me to help lead the youth
>group.
>But I really want to visit other churches. I don’t get much out of the
>Chinese [you can substitute Korean or Vietnamese] language service and
>I
>can’t relate to my OBC pastor’s preaching. I’ve been attending the
>InterVarsity [you can substitute Campus Crusade, Chi Alpha, etc.]
>meetings on
>campus, love the worship style, and am getting spiritually fed in a
>way I
>don’t get at home. What am I going to do?”
>
>Despite the hullabaloo about racism (greatly overexaggerated by the
>left),
>Asian Americans are assimilating into American society much more than
>most of
>us realize. This is not what my OBC father would have wanted to hear.
>Many of
>us depend upon our racial group identity remaining intact for our
>livelihood.
>
>If you can believe all those census statistics about Asian Americans
>marrying
>whites–the ultimate sign of social mutual acceptance–assimilation is
>happening on a grand scale. (By the way, that’s another question Asian
>American students ask me: “What about interracial dating and marriage?
>There’s this white guy in my InterVarsity chapter. I think he’s
>interested in
>me and he’s really nice, but I’m scared about what my folks will
>say…”
>
>I don’t know of any denomination that keeps statistics about how many
>Chinese
>members they have. My denomination knows how many Chinese pastors and
>predominately Chinese congregations it has, and how many members are
>in those
>Chinese churches. But I doubt it has ever asked all its churches for
>an
>ethnic breakdown of their membership. But if it did, I wouldn’t be
>surprised
>if the Chinese members in its predominately white churches outnumber
>the
>Chinese members in its predominately Chinese churches.
>
>Yours in Christ,
>Rev. Harry Lew
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 03:07:17 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: I Tim. 3

Ray;

I think our continual discussion on I Tim. 3 may have limited interest on
the CAC posting. Please send me your e-mail to continue this discussion.
Thanks.

The joy of the incarnation of God’s Son be abounding in your heart.

Ben_Mel@juno.com

——————————

From: leungs
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 07:52:00 E
Subject: CAC_Mail: FW: Reaching the unchurched

———-
From: jwong
Subject: Reaching the unchurched
Date: Thursday, December 18, 1997 7:41PM

Hi,

I’ve been studying the Willow Creek model for the last few years and
have had some success applying some of its principles within the
unchurched Asian American community. This is particularly so in the
area of lifestyle evangelism which requires a lot more personal
involvement and interaction.

However, the response hasn’t been as positive when it comes to
developing a contemporary worship service ala Willow Creek with an
Asian American flavor and staying within the AA context. While not
trying to duplicate Willow Creek, I did apply some of its principles
such as adding creativity and excitement to our outreach service.

Has anyone had any kind of experience with reaching unchurched Asian
Americans within a larger context such as planting a highly
contemporary and progressive type of church? I’m in the process of
starting one in Maryland and would like to dialogue with the experts.

James T. Wong

——————————

From: Tom Steers
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:02:31 -0800
Subject: CAC_Mail: CELEBRATE!!!

To all CACers,

I love your discussions, confessions, and ramblings. So here’s a gift of
love in return!!!

Celerbrating with you all that He is,

Tom Steers
Asian American Ministries
The Navigators

>> >>Hold the DOWN arrow to read this message. Keep going
>> >>until you reach the end! Enjoy!!!
>> >>
>> >God Loves You

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:46:19 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Demographics and % Christians

Tim said,
“Perhaps there’s not enough theological and ideological
diversity (or space) among our Chinese churches to “scratch where enough
Chinese itch”? Perhaps our churches and leaders are too apolitical or
politically conservative? I’ve interviewed a number of Chinese who grew
up in
Chinese churches and left after college – most gave these types of
responses.”

Tim, I tend to agree on this speculation. During my fieldwork in the DC
area I also interviewed some OBC droppouts. They still claimed to be
Christians, although they did not attend any church regularly. Some of
them were more concerned about Chinese as a minority in the U.S., and
got involved in the creation and operation of OCA (organization of
Chinese Americans), a influential civil rights advocate group for
Chinese Americans and Asian Pacific Americans. Some others deeply
involved in other ethnic associations that had closer relationships with
things in China (the Greater China, not just the mainland). I asked
some questions and came up this understanding:

Why did they drop out from that Chinese church? Because that church was
apolitical and allowed little community involvement.
Why didn’t they switch to a mainline Chinese church? Because that
church (1) had been a mostly Cantonese-speaking church and (2) had
turned to be more evangelical. The mandarin-speaking new immigrants do
not fit in culturally and theologically.
Why didn’t they join a non-Chinese mainline church? Well, for those
Chinese who have a clear Chinese-Consciousness (Chinese pride or
minority-mentality? I’m not sure), they do not feel comfortable to be
patronized or otherwise discriminated by the majority people. Some of
them were baptized in American churches, but they could not stay long in
those churches.

I’m not a theologian or minister. As a sociologist I try to understand
them (and others). As a Christian I feel pity for them. These are
people who cannot find good Christian fellowship and Christian
nurturing. They are spiritually lonely wolves if their claims of being
Christians are genuine. I guess they cannot be drawn back to an
evangelical church because of theological disparity, nor evangelical
churches can or should broaden their theological scope to include them.
Those individuals and these churches have all defined their particular
identities. Then, will those individuals create their own churches? Do
they have the commitment and resouces to form their own churches? (I’ve
been wondering about how could black churches produce so many activist
leaders and still mained the church). Or are there ministers, or church
organizations, who want to create a niche for those less conservative
Chinese Christians? I see mainline churches hopeless in this regard.
Their priority for racial integration on the congregational level
alienates these Chinese.

oops, this discussion might have gone too far to “blame” mainline
churches.

– —————————————————————
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:11:34 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: ignorant Americans

Sze-kar said,
>The Nightline “Good Nazi” story is interesting, on a kind of Oskar
>Schindler in Chinese context. But (1) we’ve had too many “good Nazi”
>stories lately, and there is something unhealthy about the phenomenon;
>and more important, (2) the story diverts the real issue at hand, the
>Rape itself.

Sze-kar, I regard ABC Nightline’s use of “Good Nazi” to tell the story
of Nanjing Massacre as appropriate. The American audience is too
ignorant of Chinese (and Asian) history, although many have learned at
least something about the badness of Nazi and the Holocaust. This
paradoxical title can draw people’s attention.

Americans, (including American-born Chinese or Asian Americans in
general?), are ignorant of Chinese and Asian history. I personally
encountered such Americans many times. One time was right after July 1,
on an airplane. A white woman in her early 60s sitting next to me asked
me: Please tell me, is it true that the English once sold Opium to
China? After seeing media coverage of Hong Kong returning back to
China, she was surprised by an article in a local newspaper in her small
city on the west coast. That article was written by a Hong Kong
immigrant, telling about the history how did Hong Kong become British
colony.

It is interesting to know that this year it was very much through an
American-born Chinese writer, Iris Chang, that caught the attention of
American media on that horrible event of Nanjing Massacre.

Do Chinese American Christians have to learn about what have happened in
the history? Will a historical amnesia help the ministry to Asian
Americans, especially when you try to build up an Asian American church?

Fenggang

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:58:48 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: FYI: “Nation in the Balance”

++++++++++++++”NATION IN THE BALANCE”+++++++++++++++++

Throughout 1997, the United States celebrated unprecedented
gains for the pro-family movement. And yet, we also felt the strain
of unbelievable assaults against morality and our Judeo-Christian
heritage. “Family News in Focus” captures this year of extremes
in a one-hour, in-depth special called “Nation in the Balance.”

You’ll hear fascinating reports on how the news shaped 1997
and what it means for you in 1998. Don’t miss this once-a-year
opportunity to gain a real understanding of how these issues affect
you and how to pull your weight for the sake of our future.

To hear “Nation in the Balance” in your city, call your local Christian
radio stations for broadcast times.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:05:32 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: ignorant Americans

Fenggang Yang wrote:
>
> Sze-kar, I regard ABC Nightline’s use of “Good Nazi” to tell the story
> of Nanjing Massacre as appropriate. The American audience is too
> ignorant of Chinese (and Asian) history, although many have learned at
> least something about the badness of Nazi and the Holocaust. This
> paradoxical title can draw people’s attention.
>
> Americans, (including American-born Chinese or Asian Americans in
> general?), are ignorant of Chinese and Asian history. I personally
> encountered such Americans many times…

Dear Fenggang:

You are quite right: Americans are so ignorant of Asian history in
general that the ABC ploy works very well indeed. Anything to get the
message out. My complaint is based on the same observation: Asian
history has to hang onto the Holocaust coat-tail to get attention. It’s
better than nothing, but I hope we can do better in the future.

In any case, thank you for bringing up the Nanjing Datusha (“Nanjing
Massacre”).

Warmly,
Sze-kar

——————————

From: HarryWLew@aol.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:33:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Demographics and % Christians

Dear Fenggang,

To think OBCs and ABCs are dropping out because Chinese American churches are
apolitical or too conservative is a gross misjudgment, but not a surprising
one to make for someone in your field of academia. Sociology departments are
replete with liberals and relativists. If you don’t believe me, survey your
department for political party affiliations.

There was an excellent article in SOCIETY (September/October 1993 issue)
entitled “Seeds of Racial Explosion” by Timur Kuran, a University of Southern
California professor on why, among other things, surveys on racial issues
usually come out more liberal than reality. He also makes an insightful
analysis of white backlash.

It is the tendency of liberals to think that everything has a political
solution. And it is not that I don’t think government has a God-given role to
play in human affairs. I have worked in many political campaigns, been a
precinct delegate, served several terms of the executive committee of my
county’s Democratic party (but vote a lot more Republican in recent years),
regularly give workshops on “Christianity and Politics” to churches and
college students, etc.

Asian Americans have traditionally not relied on government to solve their
problems, and have done a lot better than those minorities that do. And given
the sorry state of the African American underclass, the “activist” leadership
of the black community is not something we Asian Americans should want to
emulate.

Also to all of you who have responded appreciately to my posts in private
only:

I would greatly appreciate it if you respond publicly to me through this CAC
forum. If nothing else, you will let folks like Fenggang, Sze-kar, and Tim
know that the subscribers to this list are a lot more conservative than one
would think by just reading the messages alone.

I would never “out” you by forwarding your messages to the forum, but I’ve
been greatly tempted. 😉

And if I have not responded to you personally, I hope to do so when I return
from vacation and have more time. I’ll be leaving Main Street U.S.A. to visit
family in New York City and get some real Chinese food!!!

A Blessed Merry Christmas to everyone!

Yours in Christ,
Harry Lew

——————————

From: HarryWLew@aol.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:13:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: ignorant Americans

Dear Fenggang,

Thanks for reminding me the reason why my 78-year-old OBC father hates the
Japanese. To this day he refuses to buy anything made in Japan.

Yours in Christ,
Harry Lew

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 03:47:56 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: shocking & depressing

leungs wrote:
> But, you are right about the true celebration taking place on Easter. I
> once likened the gift of Messiah to a bond or treasury bill given by a
> parent to a young child. It’s hard for the child to fully value the gift
> when the paper note is first handed to him. He is told that it is a gift
> and that he should be thankful. Later, at an appointed time of maturity,
> the note is to be cashed. For a variety of reasons, the exchange can be
> seen as a untimely loss. But, does the pay-off far exceed the child’s
> appreciation of the gift when he first received it – even if he did
> “understand” the face value! This is a limited illustration, but the
> promise was issued in the Garden, the present arrived at Christmas, the
> mind-blowing pay-off was realized at Easter.
>
Dear Stephen:

Your illustration is well-taken, and it works well with a young child.
Adults (spiritually speaking, of course) need to develop it further.

A young child thrives, indeed only survives, on unconditional
receiving. It has no choice; it has nothing that could be used or
sacrificed to “earn” anything in exchange. A child is helpless in this
regard. It is also oblivious. Oblivious to the labors, efforts, pains,
sleepless nights its parents have to expend to provide for it. A child
receives without fanfare or gratitude; it simply receives. It thinks
this is the nature of things.

As the child grows older, when he or she learns that there is no free
lunch and treasury bills do not grow on trees, he or she learns,
finally, the parents have actually spent their life-saving on the
treasury bill that he or she so casually, so matter-of-factly received
before. They have sacrificed their lives for his or her well-being.
When this happens, guilt and sadness ensue, followed by a deep gratitude
never felt before.

So it is with our salvation.

A theologian, a martyr too, once distinguished between “cheap grace” and
“costly grace.” Cheap grace is when the child receives a gift in
oblivion. Costly grace is when the child finally understands that our
salvation was achieved by the Lord of Universe debasing himself into
human form and dying the death of a slave. This is the mystery of our
faith, of the incarnation. This is why the early church fought the
docetists who claimed that Christ as God could not have suffered the way
he did. This is why the early church fathers declared Gnostics
heretics, because the latter separated the body from the soul.

To the extent we belittle the sufferings of Christ, to that extent we
belittle the salvation he wrought on our behalf. And his sufferings
begin at birth.

A corollary: To know the sufferings of Christ is to know his humanity
and his solidarity with humanity. To know the sufferings of Christ is
to know the sufferings of all humanity.

In seasonal reflection,
Sze-kar

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:27:39 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: FYI: ALL: Abortion Decreasing? No, Not Really

Dear CACers:

Recently, there was new info regarding the latest statistics on
abortions in America. Here is one view about that from the
American Life League (ALL).

In Him,
J. Chang
– ————-
ALL: Abortion Decreasing? No, Not Really

STAFFORD, Va., Dec. 15 /PRNewswire/ —
Statement of American Life League President Judie Brown:

“But to use these shrinking numbers as an indication that America is
turning against abortion would be a grave error. It simply isn’t true.

“For starters, some news services reported that this decrease in
surgical
abortion may only be temporary — 1996 figures are expected to show an
increase over the 1995 numbers.

“In addition, these totals represent only the number of preborn
babies
killed by surgical abortion. Millions of other tiny boys and girls lose
their
lives every year because of the chemicals and devices the pro-death
movement
labels ‘contraceptives.’ “These so-called contraceptives — including
Norplant, Depo-Provera and even the standard birth control pill — can
either
prevent ovulation, hinder fertilization, or inhibit implantation of the
fertilized human embryo in the lining of the mother’s uterus. This third
action is not contraception. It is abortion.

“Life begins at fertilization — period! Linguistic manipulation
does not
change that fact.

“Biological revisionists will tell you that pregnancy begins only
when the
fertilized embryo implants in the uterine wall, and that an implantation-
inhibiting chemical does not cause abortion.

“They maliciously shroud the truth by claiming that fertilization
alone is
not sufficient to begin pregnancy. Abortion advocates continue to
distort the
basic biological fact that the union of a human sperm and a human egg at
fertilization results in a unique human being.

“Implantation does not occur until at least six days after
fertilization
– — six days after the new human being’s life has begun. The chemicals
that
deny this tiny person access to the uterine wall do, in fact, destroy a
human
life.

“The exact number of these tiny victims is unknown, but researchers
have
estimated that abortifacient chemicals and devices take the lives of
between 8
and 14 million preborn boys and girls each year — in addition to those
killed
by surgical abortion.

“This action of so-called ‘contraceptives’ serves as a reminder that
even
if every single surgical abortion clinic in the country were put out of
business, abortion would not end. It would just go into hiding.”

Judie Brown is president of American Life League, the nation’s
largest
pro-life educational organization with more than 300,000 supporters.
American Life League (ALL) on the Web at

——————————

From: HarryWLew@aol.com
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:02:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: ignorant Americans

Dear Ray Downen,

You wrote:

>It’s understandable, but wrong. Christians DO forgive, or they will
>not be forgiven. Terrible wrongs CAN be put behind us. They SHOULD be
>put behind us, else they get in the way of our LOVING those who
>despitefully use us. How does your father DARE claim to be a
>Christian while NOT forgiving???

My dad has never claimed to be a Christian. Your prayers for his salvation
would be appreciated.

But thanks anyway for your quick judgment.

Yours in Christ,
Harry

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:29:58 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Demographics and % Christians

Harry Lew said,
> To think OBCs and ABCs are dropping out because Chinese American
churches are
> apolitical or too conservative is a gross misjudgment, but not a
surprising
> one to make for someone in your field of academia. Sociology departments
are
> replete with liberals and relativists. If you don’t believe me, survey
your
> department for political party affiliations.

Dear Harry,
I said that I tend to agree on the speculation (again, speculation) that
one of the reasons (again, one of many reasons) of OBCs and ABCs dropping
out could be that some OBC/ABC Christians find theological disparity with
the Chinese churches accessible to them. Whether this is true or not is
not a theological judgement nor a political judgement (so I cannot see why
the labeling of “liberals/relativists” come into the discussion). It is a
speculation (or hypothesis, sociologically speaking) that can be proved or
disproved with empirical data. Without quantitative data, such as a
survey focusing on religious beliefs and practices of Chinese Americans,
no one can really deny or confirm the validity of this speculation with
certainty. However, I did encounter some cases of OBC dropouts who told
me they were still Christians and liked to be more involved in politics
and ethnic affairs. Maybe you have encountered OBC/ABC dropouts who
provided other explanations. If so, please let me know. I’m more than
eager to know other reasons which can be more significant than the
speculated reason here. For example, from the CAC discussion as well as
my own research I’ve learned that cultural disparity between more
Americanized ABCs (but not all ABCs are similarly Americanized) and little
Americanized OBCs (but not all OBCs are little Americanized) is probably
an important reason for ABC dropping out (this has to be qualified,
however, by the organizational structure of the church. If ABCs can
participate in decision-making, they may still be able to stay in the
church). Without knowing the true reasons of dropping out, it would be
hard to mend the broken net.

About the general tendency of sociologists as liberals, I think there are
empirical studies that have documented so. Similarly, empirical studies
show that the clergy (pastors) tend to be more liberal than the laity
(ordinary believers) (do you need any citation here?). Then, should I
regard every pastor as a liberal? Come on! I had never been labeled
liberal until your implicit statement. If I can be labeled a liberal, the
only explanation I can think of is that you must be a radical
fundamentalist. Empirical studies show that radical fundamentalists split
very often, because they cannot tolerate even a small or trivial
disagreement with other fundamentalists. They would label anyone who has
a different opinion as unorthodox (conservative?) or even non-Christian,
subsequently refuse to cowork or cooperate. Of course, as a sociologist
(again), I understand that there are radical fundamentalists and they will
not and probably should not give up their fundamentalistness.

Fenggang
– —
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. email: fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston phone: 713-743-3973
Houston, TX 77204 FAX: 713-743-3943

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 16:03:14 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Demographics and % Christians

Dear Harry:

I was hoping I wouldn’t be drawn into any debate, but here I am in spite
of myself.

Your response to Fenggang is so saturated with labels and generalities
that you have to help me out.

> Sociology departments are replete with liberals and relativists.
>
Does this statement have any value at all? Can it ever be falsified?
If not, it can hardly be persuasive.

> If you don’t believe me, survey your department for political party
> affiliations.
>
By “party affiliation” you presumably mean the Democratic Party, whose
memebership would prove that “sociology departments are replete with
liberals and relativists.” What does this say about YOUR Democratic
Party membership? Surely there are “conservative” Democrats and
“liberal” Republicans, no? From where I stand, frankly, I don’t see
much difference between these two parties.

> There was an excellent article in SOCIETY (September/October 1993 issue)
> entitled “Seeds of Racial Explosion” by Timur Kuran, a University of Southern
> California professor on why, among other things, surveys on racial issues
> usually come out more liberal than reality. He also makes an insightful
> analysis of white backlash.
>
Don’t know his works but would be happy to read them. By the way, Kuran
is a graduate of the Princeton and Stanford Economics departments and
currently teaches in one (USC), all “liberal and relativistic”
departments. And economics is one the social sciences.

> It is the tendency of liberals to think that everything has a political
> solution. And it is not that I don’t think government has a God-given role to
> play in human affairs. I have worked in many political campaigns, been a
> precinct delegate, served several terms of the executive committee of my
> county’s Democratic party (but vote a lot more Republican in recent years),
> regularly give workshops on “Christianity and Politics” to churches and
> college students, etc.
>
I see you have a very narrow definitioin of “politics,” which is fine.
But I hear Fenggang using a different definition of “politics.” He is
giving hard data (surveys of Mandarin-speaking Chinese Christians) on
why Chinese intellectuals find it so difficult to integrate into North
American Chinese churches. They complain (among others) that Chinese
churches care little about the social, political, and cultural
aspirations and concerns of Chinese expatriates.

This is a huge problem in the history of Christianity in China; it goes
back
to the May Fourth Movement of 1919, and probably much farther
back. I suggest we all take seriously what Fenggang and other devout
(mainland) Chinese Christian intellectuals have to say and engage in a
constructive dialogue to learn from their questions and concerns. Don’t
knee-jerk their points immediately into a big-govt pigeonhole. I
honestly think it’s an issue that will determine (from a historical
point of view) the shape of Chinese Christianity in the next 50-100
years.

> And given the sorry state of the African American underclass, the “activist”
> leadership of the black community is not something we Asian Americans should
> want to emulate.
>
I would be gravely offended by this generality about the “black
community” if I were African-American. In one broad stroke you manage
to belittle the moral stance of the likes of Martin Luther King and the
spiritual and political leadership of the likes of Eugene Rivers, just
two names off the top of my head. The AsiAm community might be better
off, for now, in social and economic terms, but I do not share your
optimism in the moral and spiritual state of our community. We have yet
to make our marks in this area.

> I would greatly appreciate it if you respond publicly to me through this CAC
> forum. If nothing else, you will let folks like Fenggang, Sze-kar, and Tim
> know that the subscribers to this list are a lot more conservative than one
> would think by just reading the messages alone.
>
I once observed that CAC was stiflingly conservative, that it was most
fearful of new ideas. Nothing and no one has yet persuaded me to the
contrary. Can’t speak for the others, but I am sold on CAC’s
conservativism–more than ever. No need to preach to the converted.

=====

In conclusion, a sincere challenge to you, Harry:

Instead of dealing in impressions, labels, opinions, and generalities,
post something systematic on (1) positions you hold as a
CHINESE-AMERICAN
CHRISTIAN on ministry and political/social involvement (I’d like to hear
about your workshops on “Christianity and politics”); and (2) more
importantly, your BIBLICAL and THEOLOGICAL reasons for holding said
positions.

I will do likewise, and let’s have an honest debate on substantial
issues between siblings.

Respectfully,
Sze-kar

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:15:43 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: ignorant Americans

ohbrudder wrote:
>
> And why my father was made an orphan . . .and adopted by a friend in
> America . . .and came over with “papers” and a name change . . .
> and why I’m now a Leong and not Chung.
>
> grateful to God and proud to be an American,
> bill leong
>
> HarryWLew@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > Dear Fenggang,
> >
> > Thanks for reminding me the reason why my 78-year-old OBC father hates the
> > Japanese. To this day he refuses to buy anything made in Japan.
> >
> > Yours in Christ,
> > Harry Lew

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:16:34 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Demographics and % Christians

ohbrudder wrote:
>
> Living in LA all my life, I can guarantee you there are not 32% . . .
> 80,000 Chinese Christians in So Cal? (32% of est. 250,000 ) Must be
> an underground church! 800 Chinese churches??? I think 200 tops.
> I would believe it among the Koreans but not Chinese.
>
> bill leong
>
> Fenggang Yang wrote:
> >
> > However, several survey studies based on scientific sampling in some
> > metropolitan areas put the number _much much much_ higher, for example,
> > up to 32% Protestants among Chinese in Los Angeles (see Los Angeles
> > Times July 5, 1997, section B page 5). Some social scientific surveys
> > in Chicago and Seattle came up similar percentages. As a sociologist
> > myself, I tend to accept the survey numbers.
> >

——————————

From: “Ray Downen”
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 20:01:21 +0000
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Demographics and % Christians

> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 16:03:14 -0500
> From: Sze-kar Wan
> To: CAC
> Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Demographics and % Christians

> >Harry wrote — Sociology departments are replete with liberals and relativists.
> >
> Sze-kar replied — Does this statement have any value at all? Can it ever be falsified?
> If not, it can hardly be persuasive.
>
An observer testifies — Harry’s right, as anyone reading the posts
to cac list over recent weeks couldn’t fail to see if they’re willing
to see truth. Informed Christians can’t uphold the platforms adopted
in recent years by the Democrat party. Devoted Christians couldn’t
possibly have voted for Clinton for president after his sorry record
in his first term. Some who frequently write to the cac list seem to
be proud to be Democrats. I think their positions make obvious what
Harry says is true. — Ray Downen in Joplin, Missouri.
from Ray Downen respectfully on this day of the Lord.
417/782-0814 2228 Porter Joplin Mission Outreach.
Mail address is P O Box 1065 Joplin MO 64802-1065.
Internet home page addr = http://www.ipa.net/~outreach

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 21:05:57 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: AABC

errata cf. Ken Fong’s message dated 12/6/97, subject titled
going beyond Chinese boundaries

Asian American Baptist Church
Richardson, Texas (just north of Dallas, in the suburbs)
Dr. Arnold Wong, senior pastor (he recently finished D.Min.)
new web site http://members.aol.com/asianambc/

AABC recently celebrated their 5th anniversary; it was started as an
English-only ministry in May 1992. Affiliated with Southern Baptist
Convention.
– —
*

——————————

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