about ABCs leaving OBC churches

To: cac-digest@emwave.net

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 02:21:33 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Demographics and % Christians

Ray Downen wrote:
>
> > >Harry wrote–Sociology departments are replete with liberals and relativists.
> > >
> > Sze-kar replied–Does this statement have any value at all? Can it ever be falsified?
> > If not, it can hardly be persuasive.
> >
> An observer testifies — Harry’s right, as anyone reading the posts
> to cac list over recent weeks couldn’t fail to see if they’re willing
> to see truth. Informed Christians can’t uphold the platforms adopted
> in recent years by the Democrat party. Devoted Christians couldn’t
> possibly have voted for Clinton for president after his sorry record
> in his first term. Some who frequently write to the cac list seem to
> be proud to be Democrats. I think their positions make obvious what
> Harry says is true.
>
It’s exasperating, Ray! Why do you keep on hounding me? Why do you
insist on distorting my words. I have NEVER advocated for the
Democratic Party on CAC. I have NEVER even hinted that CACers should
vote for Clinton or, for that matter, anybody. Read the plain English
of my posts for a change. I dare you to find one statement of mine that
can be construed as advocating for the Democratic Party per se.

Stop pigeonholing me into your prefab categories. It’s dehumanizing!

For the last time, READ MY ELECTRONIC LIPS:

– — I DO NOT ADVOCATE PARTISAN POLITICS ON CAC.

– — I DO NOT ARGUE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY LINE.

– — I DO NOT ASK CACERS TO VOTE FOR CLINTON.

– — I AM PROUD TO BE A CHINESE-AMERICAN CHRISTIAN.

– — I HAVE NEVER BEEN PROUD OF BEING A MEMBER OF ANY POLITICAL PARTY.

I am not worthy of your attacks, Ray. If you have problems with the
Democratic Party, take it up with the Clintons, the Gores, the Kennedys,
and the Big Boys. You are barking up the wrong tree.

Sze-kar Wan

——————————

From: HarryWLew@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 04:03:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: background

Dear DJ,

>Dear Harry,
>Thank you for your active participation in CAC, you really do speak for
>the silent majority I think, many of whom are conservative in their
>socio-political outlook. I wanted to ask what your background is, what
>your involvement with ministry is, and as you would share it with me,
>I’d list to post it as a brief bio & intro on the CAC web site
>(http://www.aamdomain.com/cac/), as I’m collecting bios from the
>various participants of CAC.

I’m sorry I didn’t responded to your earlier call for biographies. I use
e-mail a lot in my campus ministry and by necessity am limited in the amount
of time I can give to the CAC forum. I do make it a priority to challenge the
views I strongly feel need to be challenged, especially if casual observers
to our CAC conversations can get the wrong impression about what the
prevailing views of Chinese Americans are.

My group at Calvin College is 20% Asian American, but my ministry experience
as a whole has been much more with African Americans than Asian Americans,
especially at Grand Rapids Community College where I spend most of my time as
chaplain.

I lived through the civil rights era and struggled with those issues in a way
very few Asian Americans have. I find it pathetic when Asian Americans assume
that the issues African American faced 30 years ago are the same ones we face
today, and then try to mimic black demagogues like Eugene Rivers. For me it’s
not only “Been there, Done that,” but it is also withholding the unique
strengths our Asian American culture that can bring to the present situation.
As you can tell from my past messages, I believe “the myth of model minority”
is itself as big a myth if not more.

(By the way, I am very familiar with Eugene Rivers. I read him in SOJOURNERS
or THE OTHER SIDE or both, I forget which, they’re so much alike, and
elsewhere. He’s pretty twisted, the evangelical version of Al Sharpton.
Sze-Kar should talk to the evangelical campus ministry folks at Harvard about
Rivers’ tactics that have resulted in racial strife rather than
reconciliation. He’s no Martin Luther King. Though I never met Dr. King, I
proud to have one of his closest strategists, Bayard Rustin, sign my high
school yearbook!)

Those of us like Tim and others who are in denial about the dysfunctional
culture of the underclass, never lived next door to a welfare family as I
have and now do. They should at least read Nicholas Lemann’s THE PROMISED
LAND about the reasons for failure of the War on Poverty. Tim may be an
affirmative action baby, but his mainline seminary must allow him to teach
courses other than marginalized ones on Asian American church history. He
would benefit from from Lemann’s book. It will give him a broader perspective
on the history of the African American underclass and how Christians can make
a difference in our innercities. And it’s not a “conservative” book!

Now that I stirred things up a little, here is my brief bio as your
requested:

My parents are from Toi-san (Taishen?), China. I was born in New York City
and grew up in Chinatown and in Queens. My earliest exposure to evangelical
Christianity was Sunday school at the Chinese Conservative Baptist Church in
Chinatown. I committed my life to Christ at the Billy Graham pavilion at the
New York World’s Fair in 1964 while in high school. Was baptized and became a
member at the First Baptist Church in Flushing. Attended the City College of
New York where I was active in my InterVarsity Christian Fellowship chapter
and area events, as well as campus politics (protesting racism and the
Vietnam War). Dropped out of school in 1970 to help with the Jesus People
movement in the Bay area of California. Attended the Reformed Episcopal
Seminary (now Philadelphia Theological Seminary) and the University of
Pennsylvania from 1972 to 1975 [that’s when I met my wife and Sam Ling!].
Moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan to study at Calvin College and Seminary in
order to pursue ordination in the Christian Reformed Church. Became the
chaplain of Grand Rapids Community College in 1978 after short term field
work and pulpit supply assignments in churches in Tucson, AZ, Midland Park,
NJ, Riverside, CA, and Fort Collins, CO. I currently oversee the InterVarsity
program on seven campuses in Grand Rapids: Aquinas College, Calvin College,
Cornerstone College, Davenport College of Business, Grace Bible College,
Grand Rapids Community College, and Kendall College of Art & Design. My wife
is a Presbyterian WASP from suburban Pittsburgh and teaches 8th grade English
and history at a Christian school. We are the proud parents of two daughters
and a son, and members of Grace Christian Reformed Church, a multi-ethnic
congregation in the innercity of Grand Rapids.

Also, David Wong: I apologize for not responding to your message three weeks
ago. I’m as old as you. Maybe we possibly crossed paths in the Bay area. I
spent most of my time at Berkeley and then later in Marin County in Mill
Valley and San Rafael.

Yours in Christ,
Rev. Harry Lew

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:53:39 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: ignorant Americans

Harry Lew wrote,
> Dear Fenggang,
>
> Thanks for reminding me the reason why my 78-year-old OBC father hates
the
> Japanese. To this day he refuses to buy anything made in Japan.

Dear Harry,
It is helpful to know your biographic background. While you are in NY and
with your OBC father, it can be a good time for you to understand him
better. BUT, before you read the new book by Iris Chang _The RAPE of
Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II”, or some similar books,
I don’t think you can really understand your OBC father. (To confess, I
really admire your father as a real Chinese. Yes, a real Chinese!)
Without understanding him, I don’t think you are able to bring him to the
Lord. Chang’s book is not an easy reading, I promise. But just by
glancing the horrifying photos and the content, you can easily get an idea
why history should not be forgotten. It is not simply a matter that
godless Chinese refuse to forgive the wrongs of the Japanese. It is about
humanity. From the Holocaust in Europe there have come some deep
theological reflections (right?). It is really unfortunate that Chinese
Christians have let the other holocaust in China go without any serious
reflection. I think this is one of the reasons Christianity puts Chinese
people (especially intellectuals) off. If Christian theology cannot
answer Chinese questions, Chinese people will not bother to know
Christianity.

_The Rape of Nanking_ by Iris Chang is available in most book stores.
Yesterday I bought two copies from a Borders bookstore and gave one copy
as a Christmas gift to my neighbor, a white woman who is interested in
knowing China and Chinese people.

Have a meaningful Christmas holy day.

Sincerely,

Fenggang
– —
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. email: fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston phone: 713-743-3973
Houston, TX 77204 FAX: 713-743-3943

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 02:02:57 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Demographics and % Christians

bill leong said,
> Living in LA all my life, I can guarantee you there are not 32% . . .
> 80,000 Chinese Christians in So Cal? (32% of est. 250,000 ) Must be
> an underground church! 800 Chinese churches??? I think 200 tops.
> I would believe it among the Koreans but not Chinese.

Dear Bill,
A sociology professor once said to some young scholars about presenting
one’s arguments: DON’T TELL ME, SHOW ME. I know you can be a senior sage
with rich experiences, but please show your evidences, don’t simply tell
me that I am wrong or you are right. I am very willing to believe you, as
long as you can provide even rudimentary evidences. Shouting will not
help to enhance our knowledge and the ministry.

Respectfully,

Fenggang
– —
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. email: fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston phone: 713-743-3973
Houston, TX 77204 FAX: 713-743-3943

——————————

From: HarryWLew@aol.com
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 02:07:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: ignorant Americans

Dear Fenggang,

Thanks for the book reference. I’ll be searching for it.

My father retired to Monterey Park, California about ten years ago, where the
climate is better. I just spoke to him tonight, and he asked me about the
cold weather in Michigan. But I’ll see him in early March, Lord willing, when
I will be attending a conference in Pasadena. I know better now not to let
him see me load my camera with Fuji film.

I have a brother and sister still in New York, but the rest of the family is
in sunny Southern California.

Also to the rest of you, if you’re not familiar with Eugene Rivers, count
yourself blessed. He has been so blinded by bitterness that he can’t think
straight. He does have a following among those who would fit Jim Sleeper’s
term “liberal racists.”

Check out Jim Sleeper’s book, LIBERAL RACISM, that came out this summer and
is published by Viking. Has anybody else read this powerful little book?
Chock full of examples of the inanities of race conscious policies. And
again, like Nicholas Lemann, he would not consider himself a conservative.

Both of them like Shelby Steele, Glenn Loury, and I believe that if we are
serious about helping the minority underclass in America, it’s going to cost
a lot more than most conservatives realize. But the old liberal policies of
the past are not going to help.

That’s all for now. Got to finish packing and head out toward the Big Apple
first thing in the morning. Also will visit the in-laws, so don’t expect to
hear from me for a week or so.

Again, a Blessed Merry Christmas and New Year to all!

Yours in Christ,
Harry Lew

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 04:28:16 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Demographics

Hi;

Why do we think ABC and OBC Christians are leaving the Chinese Churches
mainly because of cultural incompatibilities, or lack of involvements
politically or socially, or failure to meet cultural needs, or have a
“comfort zone”? The first century church did not get or keep its members
by considering these things.

I believe that the Christian who is looking for more than socializing,
who is hungry to grow spiritually, to deepen his walk with God; (he) is
leaving because the church is anemic in its preaching and teaching of the
Word. He is not being fed spiritually. The church need to have pastors
and teachers who knows and teach the Scriptures, not teaching sociology,
civil rights, the ills and solutions of race discrimination, etc.

Is this over-simplified?

How about a discussion on the concept of the “church”, local and
universal; on para-church organization; and how these concepts should
affect Chinese churches? I’ll throw in my 2 cents when I get a chance.

Ben

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:19:11 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: FYI: “Need Knows No Season” Documentary

Need Knows No Season’ Documentary Profiles Services of The Salvation Army

The Family Channel to Broadcast ‘Need Knows No Season’ on December 30,
1997

ALEXANDRIA, Va., Dec. 15 /PRNewswire/ — The Family Channel will
broadcast
“Need Knows No Season,” a documentary profiling the services of The
Salvation
Army, on Tuesday, December 30 at 6 p.m. Eastern and Pacific time (5 p.m.
Central and Mountain time).

Retired General Colin Powell and television personality Joan Lunden
join
together to narrate profiles of The Salvation Army’s services, including
a
youth center in one of Cleveland’s toughest neighborhoods, the largest
licensed residential care center for impoverished AIDS patients and their
families in Los Angeles, and The Family Literacy Program in Clearwater
which
helps single parents on welfare earn General Equivalency Degrees and
obtain
jobs.

“Need Knows No Season” profiles six service programs provided by The
Salvation Army:

* Women’s Way (Honolulu, Hawaii) * Bethesda House (Los Angeles,
California) * Home Sweet Home (Dallas, Texas) * Family Literacy
Program (Clearwater, Florida) * Hough Community Center (Cleveland,
Ohio)
* Music Camp (Oxford, Michigan)

Yet, these six programs are just a sample of the breadth of services
The
Salvation Army provides to those in need. The Salvation Army has
approximately 10,000 units of service in local communities nationwide,
and
last year assisted more than 26 million individuals in a variety of ways.
The
Salvation Army provides food to the hungry, companionship to the elderly,
clothing and shelter to the homeless, the opportunity for underprivileged
children to go to summer camp, relief for disaster victims, assistance
for the
disabled, and many more services to those in need.

“Need Knows No Season” is an independently devised and created
documentary
on The Salvation Army by Victor/Harder Productions, an international
award-
winning film and video production company that specializes in educational
and
documentary programming. The production of “Need Knows No Season” was
funded
through the corporate donations of the Byers Foundation, Caterpillar
Inc.,
Frito-Lay, Inc., and Northwest Airlines.

The Salvation Army is an evangelical part of the universal Christian
church. One of the largest charitable and service organizations in the
world,
The Salvation Army has been in existence since 1865. It provides support
to
those in need without discrimination through numerous assistance programs
that
include emergency shelter, disaster relief, substance abuse treatment,
and
basic, social services and counseling.

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:41:41 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: SPECIAL BOOK OFFER

– ——- Forwarded Message Follows ——-
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997
From: Tom Lin
Subject: SPECIAL BOOK OFFER

The first Asian American-specific Bible Study Guide, “Losing Face,
Finding Grace” (IVP, January 1997) by Tom Lin is available for purchase.
Having sold over 4,000 copies already, this Bible Study guide has been
helpful for second generation Asians in personal study as well as group
study. Each book includes 12 studies on topics from our image of God,
to honoring parents, to idols and gifts of Asian culture. It is ideal
for English ministries of Chinese churches – esp. high schoolers,
college groups, and young adults.

To order 15 or less copies at $5.99 each, simply call InterVarsity
Press at (800) 843-7225 or visit your local bookstore. You can also
check “www.ivpress.com” for info on all IVP books. To order more than
15 copies at $4.50 each, call Tom Lin at (617) 562-8224 or e-mail
tomlin@virtually.net.

Feedback from a College Student: “MY mother went to Trinity Bookstore
(chicago) and bought the book. As soon as she read it, she cried and
realized that she needed to repent from the ways that she related to me,
her son. She came to me and asked for my forgiveness and said that I
didn’t have to be a doctor if I didn’t want to. She said that she only
cared that I follow the Lord. I was shocked, speechless, and in tears.
We reconciled that day, and now I live more for Christ (not for
medicine) and my relationship with my parents has grown so much closer
because they too live more for Christ.”

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:22:04 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: ignorant Americans

Ray Downen wrote to Harry,
>It’s understandable, but wrong. Christians DO forgive, or they will
>not be forgiven. Terrible wrongs CAN be put behind us. They SHOULD be
>put behind us, else they get in the way of our LOVING those who
>despitefully use us. How does your father DARE claim to be a
>Christian while NOT forgiving???

Harry Lew replied:
>My dad has never claimed to be a Christian. Your prayers for his
salvation
>would be appreciated.
>But thanks anyway for your quick judgment.

My comments to Ray:

Forgiveness was one of Jesus’ words and acts (on the cross) first
attracted me who grew up in an atheist social environments. However, I
feel sick of this “quick judgement”. It is easy for you to say it, but
just imagine, IF your mother or wife or daughtor or sister was once
raped by your next door neighbor, and this neighbor had never regretted
and never been brought to justice, and this neighbor seemed to still
attempt to rape your mother/wife/daughtor/sister again, what would you
do? You tell your mother/wife/daughtor/sister that you have forgiven
your next door neighbor? And condemn your mother/wife/daughtor/sister
to the hell for their reluctance to forgive the rapist? Just imagine if
this has really happened on you and your family, what would you good
Christian do. Of course, as a good Christian you will not take this as
a personal assault, and understand that I just want to put this in
perspective. This is exactly the situation between the Chinese (those
who have the historical consciousness, not those who do not consider
themselves Chinese anymore) and the Japanese (those who are still trying
hard to conceil and even deny their most horrifying crimes in China and
other Asian countries).

A theological question to my Christian pastors on CAC: what is the
difference between Christian forgiveness and historical amnesia? I as
an ordinary Christian am struggling with this. Your godly help will be
sincerely appreciated.

Fenggang
– —————————————————————
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 02:47:58 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Demographics and % Christians

Dear Harry:

I was hoping I wouldn’t be drawn into any debate, but here I am in spite
of myself.

Your response to Fenggang is so saturated with labels and generalities
that you have to help me out.

> Sociology departments are replete with liberals and relativists.
>
Does this statement have any value at all? Can it ever be falsified?
If not, it can hardly be persuasive.

> If you don’t believe me, survey your department for political party
> affiliations.
>
By “party affiliation” you presumably mean the Democratic Party, whose
memebership would prove that “sociology departments are replete with
liberals and relativists.” What does this say about YOUR Democratic
Party membership?

> There was an excellent article in SOCIETY (September/October 1993 issue)
> entitled “Seeds of Racial Explosion” by Timur Kuran, a University of Southern
> California professor on why, among other things, surveys on racial issues
> usually come out more liberal than reality. He also makes an insightful
> analysis of white backlash.
>
Don’t know his works but would be happy to read them. By the way, Kuran
is a graduate of the Princeton and Stanford Economics departments and
currently teaches in one (USC), all “liberal and relativistic”
departments. And economics is one the social sciences.

> It is the tendency of liberals to think that everything has a political
> solution. And it is not that I don’t think government has a God-given role to
> play in human affairs. I have worked in many political campaigns, been a
> precinct delegate, served several terms of the executive committee of my
> county’s Democratic party (but vote a lot more Republican in recent years),
> regularly give workshops on “Christianity and Politics” to churches and
> college students, etc.
>
I see you have a very narrow definitioin of “politics,” which is fine.
But I hear Fenggang giving hard data (surveys of Mandarin-speaking
Chinese Christians) about why Chinese intellectuals find it so difficult
to integrate into North American Chinese churches. They complain (among
others) that Chinese churches care little about the social, political,
and cultural aspirations and concerns of Chinese expatriates. This is a
huge problem in the history of Christianity in China; it goes back at
least to the May Fourth Movement of 1919, and probably much farther
back. I suggest you take seriously what Fenggang and other devout
(mainland) Chinese Christian intellectuals have to say and engage in a
constructive dialogue to learn from their questions and concerns. Don’t
knee-jerk their points immediately into a big-govt pigeonhole. I
honestly think it’s an issue that will determine (from a historical
point of view) the shape of Chinese Christianity in the next 50-100
years.

> And given the sorry state of the African American underclass, the “activist”
> leadership of the black community is not something we Asian Americans should
> want to emulate.
>
I would be gravely offended by this generality about the “black
community” if I were African-American. In one broad stroke you manage
to belittle the moral calls of the likes of Martin Luther King and the
spiritual and political leadership of the likes of Eugene Rivers, just
two names off the top of my head. The AsiAm community might be better
off, for now, in social and economic terms, but I do not share your
optimism in the moral and spiritual state of our community. We have yet
to make our marks in this area.

> I would greatly appreciate it if you respond publicly to me through this CAC
> forum. If nothing else, you will let folks like Fenggang, Sze-kar, and Tim
> know that the subscribers to this list are a lot more conservative than one
> would think by just reading the messages alone.
>
I once observed that CAC was stiflingly conservative, that it was most
fearful of new ideas. Nothing and no one has yet contradicted this
observation. Can’t speak for the others, but I am sold on CAC’s
conservativism–more than ever. No need to lecture to the convert.

=====

In conclusion, a challenge to you, Harry:

Instead of dealing in impressions, labels, opinions, and generalities,
post a statement on (1) positions you hold as a CHINESE-AMERICAN
CHRISTIAN on ministry and political/social involvement (I’d like to hear
about your workshops on “Christianity and politics”); and (2) more
importantly, your BIBLICAL and THEOLOGICAL reasons for holding said
positions.

I will do likewise, and let’s have a real forum for a change.

Respectfully,
Sze-kar

——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:50:38 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Demographics and % Christians

Fenggang and Harry:

I don’t know about ABC/OBC Christians who’ve dropped out of Chinese
churches b/c of the churches’ apolitical natures, but as the Lord has
given me entree into the secular AsiAm community activist and artistic
communities, my limited experience has confirmed one of my hunches–that
many of them have come to identify Christianity with a predominantly
white, western european, fundamentalist paradigm–one which they simply
cannot see themselves ever embracing. However, in my interface with
those serving the AsiAm substance abuse population (where I have
volunteered and led Bible studies for more than 4 years now), I find
that they are still quite fascinated with the person and teachings of
Jesus, especially with his compassion for those “down and outers” in
society. Slowly but surely, we’ve seen Jesus invite some of these
activists and artists to check out our church b/c, in part, they’ve
connected with an essential part of the gospel message.

So, while I’m curious to know how many Chinese in this country are
unchurched Christians, I’m also busy trying to build bridges with some
of the more ‘hardcore’ unchurched and unconvinced out there.

ken fong.
Evergreen Bapt. Church of LA

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:03:41 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Ignore duplicate msg

Dear CACers:

My apologies for sending an earlier version of an alread-posted
message. It sat in my Outbox, and I accidently sent it with a bunch of
other msgs. Please ignore it.

Sze-kar

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:40:12 -0700
Subject: CAC_Mail: Poll

DJ, It would be wise at first, to take a poll of the silent majority:
Does Harry speak for all of you silent types? Do you believe that
politically motivated rhetoric/slander = “leadership (pastoral and
otherwise) committed to the biblical mandate to transform lives, church,
and society for Christ’s kingdom.” ?

How about you ‘Lurk’? You been tracking Bro. Tim’s residential addresses?

G

On Sun, 21 Dec 1997 04:03:15 -0500 (EST) HarryWLew@aol.com writes:

DJ Chuang writes:
>>Dear Harry,
>>you really do speak for the silent majority I think…

Harry writes:
>
>Those of us like Tim and others who are in denial about the
>dysfunctional culture of the underclass, never lived next door to
>a welfare family as I have and now do…
>

On Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:30:37 -0400 (EDT) TSTseng@aol.com writes:
>Ken:
>
>I’m also pleased that the CAC list is growing…[with a purpose of]
>nurturing, supporting, and recruiting strong, godly, and
>faithful leaders for our existing and future congregations.
>
>But I see some obstacles:
>(1) Finding an “Asian American” voice among 2d-5th generation. To
>what degree are we really listening to the Asian Americans we are
>ministering to? Are we merely imposing an evangelical or liberal gospel
>that comes from a context unrelated (and sometimes oppressive)
>to Asian Americans’ social, political, economic, and spiritual
>circumstances? In other words, how relevant are issues like racism,
>gay rights/agenda, feminism, economic injustice, environmentalism,
>family values, etc. to our communities? How do we properly discern
>the weightier issues? This is more important to me than gnashing our
>teeths over ABC/OBC type of issues as important as they are…
> I really feel that there is a crying need for Asian American Christian
>leadership (pastoral and otherwise) committed to the biblical mandate
>to transform lives, church, and society for Christ’s kingdom.
>
>Tim
>

——————————

From: leungs
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 13:46:00 E
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: shocking & depressing

Brother Sze-kar,

Thanks for the added depth. Is Deitrich Bonhoffer the martyr you
reference? I most associate him with warnings against cheap grace. The
connection between cheap grace and oblivious receiving is interesting?

On another note, I recently picked out the quote in a recent Jars of Clay (a
CCM band) song: “Blessed are the shallow, depth they’ll never find.” I
wonder if they offer this lyric earnestly or in jest. Is it reflective of
or a commentary on something in the contemporary mindset?

Perhaps it’s an affliction of many in my generation, but I do sometimes find
myself thinking that “ignorance is bliss” in the face of life’s realities
and complexities. Ripping it from context, I might even appropriate Psalm
131.1 to explain my mentality! Yet, this attitude can lead to a lack of
preparedness to engage “thinkers” and informed skeptics, as well as the
cheap grace problem (lack of awareness leading to lack of appreciation) that
you identify.

On the other hand, I look at flourishing outreach programs in quite a few
churches these days, particularly those directed at youth and young adults,
and I find simplicity. While we should stick to the knitting (we must keep
central the message of redemption that is available to all), I find a great
deal of overt “entertainment” and hype being offered in place of substance
and bothersome facts among “successful” congregations. Perhaps, this is
what it takes to be “relevant and relatable” these days. Thoughts?

Personally, I find it quite a challenge to switch gears quickly from
ministering to americanized teens suffering from “culturally-instilled ADS”
to relating to PRC scholars in who “pop in an out” of our Chinese-speaking
services. In a separate (future) discussion, I could share about the
fascinating conversations that have started between a visiting seminary
student from China and myself.

In His manifold grace,
Stephen

———-
From: Sze-kar Wan
To: CAC
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: shocking & depressing
Date: Saturday, December 20, 1997 3:47AM

Dear Stephen:

Your illustration is well-taken, and it works well with a young child.
Adults (spiritually speaking, of course) need to develop it further.

A young child thrives, indeed only survives, on unconditional
receiving. It has no choice; it has nothing that could be used or
sacrificed to “earn” anything in exchange. A child is helpless in this
regard. It is also oblivious. Oblivious to the labors, efforts, pains,
sleepless nights its parents have to expend to provide for it. A child
receives without fanfare or gratitude; it simply receives. It thinks
this is the nature of things.

As the child grows older, when he or she learns that there is no free
lunch and treasury bills do not grow on trees, he or she learns,
finally, the parents have actually spent their life-saving on the
treasury bill that he or she so casually, so matter-of-factly received
before. They have sacrificed their lives for his or her well-being.
When this happens, guilt and sadness ensue, followed by a deep gratitude
never felt before.

So it is with our salvation.

A theologian, a martyr too, once distinguished between “cheap grace” and
“costly grace.” Cheap grace is when the child receives a gift in
oblivion. Costly grace is when the child finally understands that our
salvation was achieved by the Lord of Universe debasing himself into
human form and dying the death of a slave. This is the mystery of our
faith, of the incarnation. This is why the early church fought the
docetists who claimed that Christ as God could not have suffered the way
he did. This is why the early church fathers declared Gnostics
heretics, because the latter separated the body from the soul.

To the extent we belittle the sufferings of Christ, to that extent we
belittle the salvation he wrought on our behalf. And his sufferings
begin at birth.

A corollary: To know the sufferings of Christ is to know his humanity
and his solidarity with humanity. To know the sufferings of Christ is
to know the sufferings of all humanity.

In seasonal reflection,
Sze-kar

——————————

From: OHBRUDDER
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:36:19 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: ignorant Americans

Fenggang, Harry, and CACers,

Merry Christmas, y’all! It certainly is for our family this time of
year because it was this time of year 15 years ago, my parents were
baptized!

Growing up, my parents worked 7 days a week and ignored the kids
invitations to go to church. They didn’t mind letting us go to
church because the church should make us “good” kids and they
were influenced by a white ex-missionary woman who spoke Cantonese.

To make a long story short, I was a pallbearer at one of my dad’s
close friend. The ceremony reminded me of my own dad who was 70;
his friend was going into eternity without Christ . . .a real
tragedy . . .one of his sons told us how he wished his father would
wake for just a few moments from his coma in the hospital so that he
could share the gospel with him. He never woke. I resolved in my
heart that I do not want to have any regrets at my father’s funeral.
I want to be able to say I did all I could for my father’s soul.

The next morning during devotion, I know the Lord impressed upon me
to write a letter to my dad. I don’t speak Chinese, unless one
considers
broken “3-yup” mingled with broken “4-yup” mixed with an ABC accent
to be Chinese . . .for telling the gospel, I have a better chance
walking on water.

I wrote a letter (in English)
telling my dad about my feelings during the funeral,
and how I loved him and wanted to see him in eternity, and how he
could receive eternal life. . . as simply as I could. Then I gave the
letter to a OBC minister friend of mine to translate into Chinese.
I gave the letter to my dad . . .two weeks later, he and my mom went
to visit the OBC pastor of our church . . .gave their heart to Christ!
Month or so later, Christmas Sunday, they were baptized!

Merry Christmas!

For God’s gift of His Son which keeps on giving,

bill leong

Fenggang Yang wrote:
>
> I don’t think you can really understand your OBC father. (To
confess, I
> really admire your father as a real Chinese. Yes, a real Chinese!)
> Without understanding him, I don’t think you are able to bring him to
the
> Lord. . .
> . . . It is really unfortunate that Chinese
> Christians have let the other holocaust in China go without any
serious
> reflection. I think this is one of the reasons Christianity puts
Chinese
> people (especially intellectuals) off. If Christian theology cannot
> answer Chinese questions, Chinese people will not bother to know
> Christianity.
>

——————————

From: David Wong
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:12:22 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: re: ABC ministry

Dear Friends,

I’ve hesitated to get into this forum for a number of reasons: 1.)It
takes a lot of time to respond in an exchange of ideas; 2.) topics such
as Affirmative Action does not directly deal with the ABC church scene;
3.) some of the posting have gotten very personal in tone. SK felt
“hounded” by RD, who may have taken too much liberty in reading between
the lines.

I am compelled to write because I feel that there are those in the CAC
that are really looking for answers and are not simply debating for the
fun of it. I appreciate very much the thoughts expressed on this forum
by intellectuals and ministry practitioners.

The currect topic about ABC’s leaving the Chinese church is interesting.
Numbers and statistics are helpful but they do not tell you “why” they
are exiting the Chinese church.

Allow me to share some thoughts here. These are some of my observations
in over 20 years of pastoral ministries. I have pastored English
congregations in SF (Cumberland Presbyterian Chinese Church); Wheaton
Chinese Alliance Church (IL), Gaithersburg Chinese Alliance Church (MD)
and currently Washington International Church in Georgetown, Washington,
DC. The last three churches I served as the founding pastor. All
ministry were in English, except for the Wheaton and Gaithersburg
churches which we added Mandarin translation. Both churches now have
separate Chinese and English worship services.

I am an OBC from the Philippines. Came to the US in 1971, married a
southern girl from NAshville, TN in 1973. We have two wonderful
children. We call our marriage a cross-cultural marriage. Perhaps we
were a few of the “pioneers” of people in ministry who married
cross-culturally (I prefer this to mix-marriage). As such, we did
encountered racial prejudice based on our marriage. We were denied
ministry opportunity in a church in Texas because a woman doctor in the
church objected that we would be bad examples for the future generation.
If the pastor can marry a “white devil”, then their children will see no
reason to do the same thing. She influenced enough votes in the church
to defeat our appointment. But we have no regrets. God has better plans
– – from there we did church planting and we enjoyed every bit of it. I
later did my doctorate at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in
Deerfield. My project was to write a manual on “How to Plant A Chinese
Church in North America.” I also taught church planting at ATS.

Let me offer my humble opinion here on why the ABC ministry is not
growing. I will focus here on the role of the pastor. I will address
other subjects later.

I believe the English ministry in many Chinese churches is anemic
because the english pastor (ABC or OBC) is poorly trained. At this
point, lets take the blame off the OBC pastor and church board. Many ABC
pastors I have counselled and observed have a very poor self-image. they
are unsure of their calling. Sometimes even guilty that they have
disappointed their OBC parental wishes about their career goals.

Survey the drop out rate of ABC pastors and you will find some drifting
from the pastorate to law school or social work,including
counselling.Others go into parachurch ministry and left the pastorate.

The problem began in seminary when they have poor mentoring and false
hope. Many ABC seminarians I spoke to say their gift is teaching. They
see themselves as Bible expositors and teachers like John MacArthur,
Church Swindoll, the late Ray Stedman, etc. Many would rather teach in a
Bible College or seminary than pastor a church.

Our seminaries are ill equipped to train ABCs to serve Chinese churches,
except perhaps for Alliance Theological Seminary which has a Bi-cultural
program for their M.Div program. ATS is in Nyack, NY. These young ABC
pastors have little skills in leadiing a congregation or run a church
board meeting. They need mentoring on how to exercise leadership.

We would all like to have a nice size congregation to preach and teach
to – but where do they come from? Few ABC pastors are willing and able
to do personal evangelism. Ask this question. How many people in your
congregation did you personally led to the Lord or that you personally
recruited from the unchurched group? ABC pastors need to lead the church
in personal evangelism. We criticize the OBC pastor for always preaching
“salvation” messages. But how many of us pastor/preachers do what we
tell our church members to do – that is, go witness and share Jesus
Christ with non-believers?

Please don’t think I am knocking ABC pastors here. I love and mentor a
number of ABC pastors. If anything, I would like to see ABC ministry
flourish. But from the late 70’s until now, I have seen ABC pastors and
laymen mostly in denial. ABC blames OBC or find some other reasons. Has
anyone look at the number of churches started by ABCs? There are a few
inspirational success but many failures.

ABC pastors need to discover their own style of ministry. Too much
emphasis is given to adopting models like Willow Creek or Saddleback. We
think if we perfect the worship service – they will come.

I believe the greatest need in the ABC ministry today is pastoral care.
I feel that many ABC pastors are too busy preparing for their sermons
and teaching that they neglected to care for the sheep. Many young ABC
pastors have no clue how to do hospital visitation or comfort a family
who lost a love one. Just as the OBC criticize ABC for their “cultural
insensitivity,” ABC pastors are often lacking in bedside(hospital)
manners.

We have at least three Chinese churches here in the Washington DC area
that are looking for English pastors. One other church recently called a
Caucasian to be their ABC pastor. The others are having a difficult time
recruiting? Why? I don’t believe it is an uninformed OBC church board –
most of them are very sympathetic to the plight of the ABC (yes, much
progress has been made in recent years). But that there are few
qualified candidates from which they can choose from.

I ask your forgiveness if I offended anyone. But I have shared these
thoguhts with many ABC pastors, laymen and seminarians, and they sadly
agree with me. We need to train a new breed of ABC pastors who can
preach well but are sensitive to pastoral concerns. We need seminarians
who are sure of their calling. We need pastors who want to be pastors.

God bless you in the ministry in this most wonderful season of
celebrating the birth of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

a fellow practitioner in the ministry,
David Wong
Washington International Church
Washington, DC

——————————

From: jro6@juno.com (Jonathan c Ro)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 04:54:40 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: CAC: Reaching the unchurched

Hi James,
It’s good to hear from a fellow pastor who has a similar
philosophy of ministry as I have. I too have been studying up on
Willowcreek and have tried to use some of their principles in my Chinese
church context (English congregation). I’ve since learned that
transitioning a church from a ‘traditional model’ to ‘seeker sensitive
model’ (not even a ‘seeker targeted model’… there is a difference) is a
long and hard process.
My desire for my members is the same as yours, seeing them live
out lifestyle evangelism. My desire is to see them intentionally build
an authentic relationship with a seeker with the hopes of inviting
him/her to church. Our initial strategy for the English congregation was
to have our own contemporary “seeker services” during Christmas and
Easter. That was a good start for us, but it had its limits to its
effectiveness.
That strategy only works if members are actually building
authentic relationships with the unchurched. The problem with us was,
that wasn’t happening. Why? A general answer could be given: a lack of
spiritual vitality. ‘If they truly loved God, they’d love what God
loves, which is lost people. If they truly loved lost people, they’d
naturally spend time building a relationship with a lost person.’
Although that may be a general response, I think the problem is
more complicated than that. There could be other contributing factors
for a lack of evangelistic zeal in a church. For us these were the
contributing factors…

1. No clearly defined target group for an ethnic church (English
congregation). Who are we to reach? Unchurched Asian Americans or just
anyone, multi-racial? Both directions have their potential problems.
If we targeted just unchurched AAs, that would be hard since they are so
hard to find in the Midwest. And, most of our natural relationships with
the unchurched are with white folks. Even if we found AAs through
marketing efforts, would they respond to our “cold call” solicitations?
If we went muti-racial, that would be hard too since we’re
minorities. White Christians already have a hard time reaching their own
kind. Look at the enormous amount of effort and sacrifice Willowcreek
has to make in order to gain a hearing from a post-Christian culture. If
the unchurched whites barely listen to their own kind, why would they
listen us? And even if a few whites did listen to us, would they step
into a Chinese church much less make it their home church? Plus the
fact, if the English congregation went overtly multi-racial it would
threaten the existence of the Chinese congregation. The multi-racial
vision would have to be spread very discreetly.
In your situation, you’re a church plant so you don’t have the
two congregational system and the problems associated with that.
However, you still have the target group issue. Asians Americans are
also minorities in Maryland. Could your church realistically reach
unchurched whites there? My guess is probably not. (I hope you prove me
wrong though). However, church planting in the West coast may be a
different story since there are so many AA living there.

2. A poor church infra-structure for pastoral care. Our previous
methodology for pastoral care was inadequate. We were under a
“Congregational” care system as opposed to a “Cell” care system
(Meta-church terminology). Even if we did grow, our medium sized adult
fellowship (20+) wouldn’t have been able to assimulate new comers
effectively. The good news is… turning our fellowship group into three
small groups dramatically increased our receptivity to new comers.
Having “fishing pool” events quarterly also helped connect visitors with
members. We have seen good results with this new meta-church system.

3. Too many “church” programs. We had more “ministries” running
than the available help to man them. (Eg. youth group, Sunday school
(K-adults), children’s church (K-6th), nursery, missions conference,
prayer meetings, fellowships, Bible studies, worship team, welcome
team…etc.)
Our members were so tired from keeping the ministries afloat that
they didn’t have the time and energy to build an authentic relationship
with an unchurched person. Our many programs were burning us out and
keeping us from being spiritually healthy.
We had to down size and consolidate ministries to relieve the
burden. I received more criticism on this matter than on anything else.
Focusing on priorities, such as starting up small groups and training
small group leaders and apprentices, basically killed our Sat. night
Youth group program. (We still have a Sunday morning Youth Sunday School
though). However, the benefits for starting small groups were
tremendous. It helped us combine many of the ministries together such as
Bible study, prayer, inreach, and outreach. It awakened the spiritual
lives of exhausted burned out members. It brought in new people to help
carry the load.
We also combined the children’s Sunday school with children’s
worship to make it one unified children’s program, (Willowcreek’s
Promiseland Model). Since these changes have taken place, our members
are just about back to balance and health.

4. Lack of Leadership. In the past, the Chinese congregation
never developed potential ABC leaders and never provided a vision for us.
We had to survive on our own. The lack of leadership for so many years
caused a massive exodus of ABCs from the church and a low morale
(self-esteem) for those who stayed. That trend was reversed by letting
them experience wins under their belts through many of the positive
changes that were made.

5. Seeker services are effective if they are done well and done
with the right group of people. Yes, in our seeker services we have
dramas, video clips, special music and a contemporary band, but I’m not
sure how effective we really are. We are still in an experimental stage.
Plus the fact, it has taken up a lot of resources to make it happen. It
has drained us so much that we can only handle two of them a year,
Christmas and Easter. Of course these services are far better than the
typcial combined services. They are also refreshing for the previously
churched ABCs who are coming back to the church. But are they effective
for AAs who have a Buddhist background? I don’t know. The jury is still
out.

These are just some of the issues that we’ve been wrestling with.
Some of them are not yet fully resolved. If you have any suggestions
to help me I’d love to hear them. I hope that some of this is helpful to
you as well.

In Christ,

Jonathan Ro
Associate Pastor (English Congregation)
The Chinese Bible Church of Oak Park

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:56:32 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: about CAC forum

To all CACers:

It’s fascinating how the timing of things come, just as in the
fullness of time, Christ Jesus came to visit us on earth about 2000
years ago (Galatians 4:4). What an awesome thought that God would
visit us, that God is now with us, Emmanuel!! (tho’ tragic emotions
may be evoked as well, to think that God would give up so much to
become a lowly man; as I’m most recently discovering, any event/idea
can evoke at least 2 or 3 emotions and feelings.)

About the timing of things right here, the recent issues on this CAC
forum have caused quite a stir among many. Let me address it briefly:

I am a list manager, I volunteer my time and service as a hobby, to
get the technical aspects flowing smoothly. I jump in only to stop
things out of hand, or to end an issue driven to the ground and/or
going no where (for whatever reason). That is all, this is an
UNMODERATED forum, and I am not the moderator.

I purposely hoped for the best in all the participants, that we would
all be civil and gentlemanly (or gentlewomanly?) in our discussion and
demeanor, and recent discussions have not shown that (on all ends of
the theological/political spectrum). I’ve been sorely disappointed.
There’ve been offensive and questionable messages _all over_ (I
apologize for not jumping in sooner, my own sensitivity has turned
more thick-skinned after getting into real ministry in real life). I’m
not sure what is best to do; likewise, everyone has their own opinions
on this.

This forum is a place for open discussion on issues related to Chinese
American Christians, where diversity is appreciated and allowed. I
sense that some do not seem to engage well with diversity and differing
opinions, I sense that some do not delve more deeply into complex
issues, I sense that a written forum such as email is limited in
conveying ideas as effectively as needed. For all, I beseech you to be
especially humble, decorus, patient, and repentant. Some of you have
demonstrated these qualities, and I thank you.

I’ll share further about some personal thoughts about CAC and myself in
the coming weeks, but for now, this is the Christmas season, it’s a
time for celebration and well wishes. Merry Christmas, relish in the
joy and peace that Christ alone brings.

DJ Chuang, list manager
– —
*

——————————

From: leungs
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 09:04:00 E
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: shocking & depressing

Brother James,

I was pretty sure you’d enter the discussion on this one. Good to hear from
you again. You should tell us more about what, with God’s grace, you are
seeking to do in Cedar Ridge these days.

I put quotations around successful because it does have to be qualified. To
some, numbers seems to be the key metric for the “success” of a church, and
hence whether we’re looking closely at the Rick Warren at Saddleback or the
Willowcreek model, we partially acknowledge their “authority” because of the
numbers they have reached. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to knock
mega-churches here. I’m just saying that it tends to be a lens through
which we judge “success.”

My own desire has been much more along the lines of what Sister Melanie
describes – a holistic approach, complete with discipleship. That,
however, takes time and dedicated people (sponsors/counselors). Since you,
James, are somewhat aware of my present situation, you know those resources
are in very short supply. Moreover, to get youth to appreciate authenticity
and honesty, sponsors have to have spent time in the Word and in practice of
such “virtues” so as to model them for the youth. Not all youth come from
homes that consistently display these and other “virtues.” Besides, as
we’ve said before, transparency is kind of a “Western” thing.

[For those not around the DC area, Frontlines is a ministry at McLean Bible
Church targeted at twenty-somethings, held on Sunday evenings – when
everyone is back from the weekend. It is enjoying some phenomenal growth in
numbers. However, a closer look at its demographics might be revealing.]

Instead of naming particular churches here in DC [others following the
McLean Bible model], let me refer to YFC’s DC/LA convention as a more common
example of what is used to attract youth these days. Yes, some would call
DC/LA an “Anglo” thing. But, from what I understand, the LA portion of it
is heavily attended by Asians. With exposure to popular gatherings/programs
like these, our youth (new and older Christians and non-Christians) begin to
say, “yeah, that’s what we want.”

To answer Brother DJ’s question, I’ve been “hangin” with youth for about
twelve years now. The attention spans of the students have progressively
gotten shorter. And, yes MTV is one of the factors leading to short
attention spans. So is the general atmosphere in many schools these days
where teachers ignore rather than discipline those who blatantly chat away
in the back of classrooms. The fact that some of the youth have closer
relationships with their discmans and desktops than with any human being is
also telling. Not only do they like entertainment, they’re quite accustomed
to selecting entertainment themselves – changing the channel if the
scheduled programming isn’t to their liking.

The community-congregation-committed-core scheme and ones like them still
work loosely. The hard part is keeping the movement from left to right
instead of from right to left. We’ve been blessed by the Lord lately with
an influx of un-churched and non-christian teens. Yet their appetites have
influenced our churched youth and now they’re more than ever shaping what
our committed youth hope to see in our programming.

Having been introduced to youth ministry under the auspices of folks like
Ray Lee, Lawrence Chen, and Sandy Moy-Liu, and having watched what worked
(in the 80’s), I still hold fast to bedrock requisites like the Truth of God
and transforming relationships. It’s just that the shorter attention span
has now forced the delivery of these requirements to take different tacts
and forms. A new teen is often so “distracted” that you really just have to
keep trying and praying without any garauntee of success to show you are
seriously interested in him or her. Among the visitors that come to the
group, there is a pretty low percentage that ever come to “discover” that
God’s Word IS relevant and that the “adults” can relate to what they’re
going through. The majority are “ever hearing, but never understanding!”

Sorry for going on like this about youth ministry. I only close by sharing
that we are STILL looking for an English-speaking pastor!=)

In the Redeemer,
Stephen

———-
From: jwong
To: leungs
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: shocking & depressing
Date: Monday, December 22, 1997 12:04PM

> you identify.
>
> On the other hand, I look at flourishing outreach programs in quite a few
> churches these days, particularly those directed at youth and young
adults,
> and I find simplicity. While we should stick to the knitting (we must
keep
> central the message of redemption that is available to all), I find a
great
> deal of overt “entertainment” and hype being offered in place of substance
> and bothersome facts among “successful” congregations.

Steve,

What’s your definition of “successful”? Do you have “Frontline”(a
highly contemporary service with a rock band that’s got guys with long
hair, goatee and grungewear) in mind? A lot of these “highly
contemporary” congregations do attract a lot more unbelievers and very
young believers.

Most Christians who are looking for something more meaningful and
reflective go elsewhere. There is a significant number of people
within this category which is why I’m also considering a starting a
ministry for this group of “deep thinkers”.

Perhaps, this is
> what it takes to be “relevant and relatable” these days. Thoughts?

Not necessary. Most of my unbelieving friends that I hang out with do
look for “substance” such as honesty and authenticity. I think the
postmodern church will approach outreach in a manner very different
from the boomers. Emphasis will be more on authenticity and
transparency rather than the “entertainment” approach which is pretty
much a boomers type of ministry that focuses on excellence.

In Him,

JTW

——————————

From: KG Louie
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:25:10 +0000
Subject: CAC_Mail: It’s so simple to recieve!

Brudder Bill,
Thanks you so much for sharing your wonderful story of your parents. It
brings a joy to my heart and a tear to my eyes when lives are transformed by
the GRACE that was so freely givien. (God’s Redemption At Christ’s Expense).

Harry Lew,
You and I have common roots in NYC’s Chinatown at CCBC. It is good that the
ministry of George Cole (who founded CCBC – then only a mission) has blessed
all who walked through the doors have that church.

Wishing all the best of His will in your lives. Come Jesus come!!

Until He returns, we work!
King Louie/NYC

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:30:21 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Asian Task Force Summit 1998 (Jan.19-20) & PrayUSA! 98 (March

*** forwarded message ***

To all who long to see revival break forth in the Asian-American church
& communities:

Here are two events for you to prayerfully consider:

1) U.S. Spiritual Warfare Network
Asian Task Force Summit 1998
Sheraton Gateway Hotel at LAX
6101 W. Century Blvd.
Los Angeles CA 90045
Hotel Reservations No: 310-642-1111

To register ($25/person by 1/1/98), contact:

Asian Task Force
735 S. Mills Ave.
Claremont, CA 91711 USA
Toll-Free No: 888.SWN.2ATF (796.2283) x175
Phone: 909.482.4466 x175
Fax: 909.482.4464
E-mail: atf@ifgf.org

2) PrayUSA! 98 (March 1-April 9): 40 days of praying and fasting for
revival and spiritual awakening in the U.S.A. For a reproducible prayer
calendar (English, Chinese and other Asian languages) and to learn more
about mobilization of Asian-American Christians to participate in
PrayUSA!, please call 909-944-4963 (Fax: 909-944-6339).

Thank you and may God grant you a joyous and restful Christmas and New
Year.

Martin Mei-ta Chow, President
Metawake Revival and Evangelism, Inc.
P.O. Box 2214
Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91729-2214
U.S.A.
Tel. 909-944-4963
Fax 909-944-6339
Pgr 909-457-2777
E-mail: (O) metawake@juno.com
(H) asotl@juno.com

P.S. Please forward this post to as many people as you know who may be
interested. Thanks.

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:30:21 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: re: ABC ministry

– ——- Forwarded Message Follows ——-

From: “jwong”
To: cac@emwave.net

David Wong wrote:
>
> 3.) some of the posting have gotten very personal in tone. SK felt
> “hounded” by RD, who may have taken too much liberty in reading between
> the lines.
>

Right on, Pastor Wong. I’m getting wary myself from some of the
recent postings.

On the subject of reaching unchurched ABCs, I think a reformation
would help. Most ABCs congregation are too focused on maintaining and
retaining people let alone carry out evangelism. The majority of these
congregations have grown through transfer membership and birth. Thus,
what we have are mostly churched people with very little exposure and
interest in evangelism.

What we hope to do differently at “The Edge” is build up a core of
revolutionary Christians through evangelism. So, our focus is mainly on
unchurched people, including ABCs, and building up this ministry from
scratch. Having found Christ after living as a secular humanist for 19
years, I cannot help but feel that in order for evangelism to seriously
take place among ABCs, it has to be experienced personally and seen
happening on a regular basis.

Which is why I prefer to start something from scratch with mostly
unchurched people who has experienced evangelism first hand and have
seen the hand of God touching their hearts in a very real way even when
they weren’t believers.

Anyway, I do believe ABCs can be reached and empowered to make a
difference for Christ today. But I prefer to produce something
tangible first instead of rapping on the “ifs” and “buts” of ABC
ministry. So, until then, do remember us in your prayers as we
strife for the glory of God’s kingdom.

In Him,

JTW

> I believe the English ministry in many Chinese churches is anemic
> because the english pastor (ABC or OBC) is poorly trained. At this
> point, lets take the blame off the OBC pastor and church board. Many ABC
> pastors I have counselled and observed have a very poor self-image. they
> are unsure of their calling. Sometimes even guilty that they have
> disappointed their OBC parental wishes about their career goals.
>
> Survey the drop out rate of ABC pastors and you will find some drifting
> from the pastorate to law school or social work,including
> counselling.Others go into parachurch ministry and left the pastorate.
>
> The problem began in seminary when they have poor mentoring and false
> hope. Many ABC seminarians I spoke to say their gift is teaching. They
> see themselves as Bible expositors and teachers like John MacArthur,
> Church Swindoll, the late Ray Stedman, etc. Many would rather teach in a
> Bible College or seminary than pastor a church.
>
> Our seminaries are ill equipped to train ABCs to serve Chinese churches,
> except perhaps for Alliance Theological Seminary which has a Bi-cultural
> program for their M.Div program. ATS is in Nyack, NY. These young ABC
> pastors have little skills in leadiing a congregation or run a church
> board meeting. They need mentoring on how to exercise leadership.
>
> We would all like to have a nice size congregation to preach and teach
> to – but where do they come from? Few ABC pastors are willing and able
> to do personal evangelism. Ask this question. How many people in your
> congregation did you personally led to the Lord or that you personally
> recruited from the unchurched group? ABC pastors need to lead the church
> in personal evangelism. We criticize the OBC pastor for always preaching
> “salvation” messages. But how many of us pastor/preachers do what we
> tell our church members to do – that is, go witness and share Jesus
> Christ with non-believers?
>
> Please don’t think I am knocking ABC pastors here. I love and mentor a
> number of ABC pastors. If anything, I would like to see ABC ministry
> flourish. But from the late 70’s until now, I have seen ABC pastors and
> laymen mostly in denial. ABC blames OBC or find some other reasons. Has
> anyone look at the number of churches started by ABCs? There are a few
> inspirational success but many failures.
>
> ABC pastors need to discover their own style of ministry. Too much
> emphasis is given to adopting models like Willow Creek or Saddleback. We
> think if we perfect the worship service – they will come.
>
> I believe the greatest need in the ABC ministry today is pastoral care.
> I feel that many ABC pastors are too busy preparing for their sermons
> and teaching that they neglected to care for the sheep. Many young ABC
> pastors have no clue how to do hospital visitation or comfort a family
> who lost a love one. Just as the OBC criticize ABC for their “cultural
> insensitivity,” ABC pastors are often lacking in bedside(hospital)
> manners.
>
> We have at least three Chinese churches here in the Washington DC area
> that are looking for English pastors. One other church recently called a
> Caucasian to be their ABC pastor. The others are having a difficult time
> recruiting? Why? I don’t believe it is an uninformed OBC church board –
> most of them are very sympathetic to the plight of the ABC (yes, much
> progress has been made in recent years). But that there are few
> qualified candidates from which they can choose from.
>
> I ask your forgiveness if I offended anyone. But I have shared these
> thoguhts with many ABC pastors, laymen and seminarians, and they sadly
> agree with me. We need to train a new breed of ABC pastors who can
> preach well but are sensitive to pastoral concerns. We need seminarians
> who are sure of their calling. We need pastors who want to be pastors.
>
> God bless you in the ministry in this most wonderful season of
> celebrating the birth of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
>
> a fellow practitioner in the ministry,
> David Wong
> Washington International Church
> Washington, DC

– —
*

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:30:21 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: CAC: Reaching the unchurched

– ——- Forwarded Message Follows ——-

From: “jwong”
To: Jonathan c Ro
CC: cac@emwave.net

Brother Ro,

There is actually a good number of unchurched Asians in this MD,DC,VA
area. Enough to build a church to reach them. However, my target group
does include Anglo-Americans since I’m being sponsored by an Anglo
church and am building up my core group there.

I came to Christ through a missionary when I was 19, which is why I have
this missions mindset of reaching Americans for Christ.

Thank you for helping us know a little about what you’re doing. Even
though Willow Creek was my first experience of church life, my
philosophy has somewhat evolved over the years but I still apply many of
its principles. The church plant situation that I’m in is very
different from that of an established church but it won’t take too long
before we deal with the same issues.

Many of my church planting buddies thought that planting a new church
will free them up from having to deal with Chinese elders, OBCs, etc.
But most of them realize after a while, that church plants present
problems and limitations of their own and in many cases, of equal
magnitude to that of an established church.

Thus, what you’ve shared will help in the long run as I anticipate many
obstacles along the way.

Alright, bro. Have a blessed Christmas and a joyous New Year.

JTW

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:30:21 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: shocking & depressing

– ——- Forwarded Message Follows ——-

From: “jwong”
To: cac
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: shocking & depressing

leungs wrote:
>
> I was pretty sure you’d enter the discussion on this one. Good to hear from
> you again. You should tell us more about what, with God’s grace, you are
> seeking to do in Cedar Ridge these days.

My main man,

I’m doing missions work at Cedar Ridge. Actually, to be more
accurate, I’m reaching white America for Christ. Being Chinese
myself, I figure that I’d probably attract more Asians than
non-Asians. That has been true so far. But building a new ministry
within an Anglo church has really helped me to build many meaningful
relationships with both churched and unchurched Anglo-Americans.

So, I hope this will turn out to be a multi-ethnic ministry. We are
still building up our core group and are looking at launching out as an
independent church in a year’s time. In essence, I’m starting a
multi-ethnic church by focusing mainly on growing through evangelism.

Steve, I appreciate what you’re doing out there. You have chose to do
that which honors God. He in return, will honor your effort.

Keep up the good work, bro.

JTW

A new teen is often so “distracted” that you really just have to
> keep trying and praying without any garauntee of success to show you are
> seriously interested in him or her. Among the visitors that come to the
> group, there is a pretty low percentage that ever come to “discover” that
> God’s Word IS relevant and that the “adults” can relate to what they’re
> going through. The majority are “ever hearing, but never understanding!”
>
> Sorry for going on like this about youth ministry. I only close by sharing
> that we are STILL looking for an English-speaking pastor!=)
>
> In the Redeemer,
> Stephen
>
> ———-
> From: jwong
> To: leungs
> Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: shocking & depressing
> Date: Monday, December 22, 1997 12:04PM
>
> > you identify.
> >
> > On the other hand, I look at flourishing outreach programs in quite a few
> > churches these days, particularly those directed at youth and young
> adults,
> > and I find simplicity. While we should stick to the knitting (we must
> keep
> > central the message of redemption that is available to all), I find a
> great
> > deal of overt “entertainment” and hype being offered in place of substance
> > and bothersome facts among “successful” congregations.
>
> Steve,
>
> What’s your definition of “successful”? Do you have “Frontline”(a
> highly contemporary service with a rock band that’s got guys with long
> hair, goatee and grungewear) in mind? A lot of these “highly
> contemporary” congregations do attract a lot more unbelievers and very
> young believers.
>
> Most Christians who are looking for something more meaningful and
> reflective go elsewhere. There is a significant number of people
> within this category which is why I’m also considering a starting a
> ministry for this group of “deep thinkers”.
>
> Perhaps, this is
> > what it takes to be “relevant and relatable” these days. Thoughts?
>
> Not necessary. Most of my unbelieving friends that I hang out with do
> look for “substance” such as honesty and authenticity. I think the
> postmodern church will approach outreach in a manner very different
> from the boomers. Emphasis will be more on authenticity and
> transparency rather than the “entertainment” approach which is pretty
> much a boomers type of ministry that focuses on excellence.
>
> In Him,
>
> JTW

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:43:54 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Outreach

– ——- Forwarded Message Follows ——-

From: “jwong”
To: CAC

BTW, most Asian-Americans other than Korean-Americans and to a small
extent, Chinese Americans are unchurched. I’m trying to build a
philosophical foundation for reaching non-Korean Asian Americans. Most
KAs have some sort of exposure to church life and are able to adapt to
church situations more readily while most other Asians don’t.

At the moment, my only models of outreach ministry that are available
out here in DC are mostly Euro-American. So, we’ll see what we can come
up with at “The Edge” within the next couple of years.

Do pray for us.

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:28:39 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Hermeneutics and unity

Hi;

I’m responding to a note posted by Sze-kar on Nov. 7th. But before I do
here is something else that has some bearing on it.

I make a necessary distinction between “knowing” and “understanding”.
Perhaps the distinction can be made using other terms, but this
distinction is necessary. “Knowing” is to have knowledge of facts,
whereas “understanding” is to have sense about the facts, that is the
facts comes together and make sense. The natural (unbeliever) man cannot
“understand” the things of God (I Cor. 2:14). He may “know” about them,
like knowing and quoting the 10 Commandments, or about the history of
Israel, but he cannot understand them. He may know that one should “in
all things give thanks”, but he doesn’t understand why, how can it be?
Knowing about something is to have the facts about it, but understanding
is to have those facts make sense, come together in a meaningful whole.

The believer is able to understand the things of God, even the deep
things of God because the Spirit of God gives him that understanding. In
teaching the Word of God, I can communicate knowledge of God’s Word, but
it is the Holy Spirit that gives understanding. Therefore as a teacher,
I need to be diligent to communicate knowledge to my students, but I am
completely dependant on the Spirit to give the students understanding; it
is not in myself. The student must also be completely dependant on the
Spirit to give understanding, not in his own intelligence. His
intelligence can only know.. Have you ever experienced a mentally slower
student expressing insights on God’s Word that the more sharp students
misses?

Dear Sze-kar;

You wrote back on Nov. 7th, concerning the issue of hermeneutics:
” if understanding is required, can the interpreter be so easily
extricated from the
equation? Is it possible to make a clean separation between
“interpretation” and “interpreter”?

This is a very good point and the interpreter must be aware of being
subjectively involved. The problem is there and the help for this is to
be aware and note that which is subjective, or recognize it when pointed
out to him. A danger in interpretation is with our subjectivity we think
it is my interpretation and any criticism of it is a criticism of myself.
One began to think it is his meaning, truth and forget that it is God’s
truth that is revealed and he is only trying to understand its meaning.

You also wrote:

” God–>Word/Bible–>Hermeneutics/Interpretation–>Understanding/Reader

In other words, Hermeneutics stands between the biblical text and the
Reader and cannot be separated from him or her. If a hermeneutical
system produces an Interpretation INcomprehensible to the Reader, there
is no understanding, and there can be no faith.

Take your slavery example as test case. I don’t think you or anyone on
CAC would advocate slavery as a viable social system, even though it’s
described in the New Testament. So, when we come to the Household Codes
where the slave-master relationship is laid down (Col 3.22-4.1; Eph
6.5-9; etc.), some sort of hermeneutics must be in operation: we must
“understand the good and wisdom” of it as you said. Why can’t we simply
submit to it literally–without any input from the interpreter? Because
(a) we don’t live in a slavery society (our historical & social
location); and (b) we think slavery is evil (20th-century moral
standard). In other words, to take these passages literally would be
utterly INcomprehensible to us. ”

The problem is not the interpretation, nor the lack of understanding.
The concern is “submit to it literally” or how to apply such an
understanding to our culture. Although it does not fit our society, one
can understand it as it works in their society, . . . literally. There
is a difference between interpretation and application. There is, from
our approach, only one true interpretation but many applications.

You continued and wrote;

” for that’s [historical-grammatical method] my overwhelming preference
as well.
But I think we (i.e., you and I) should also be aware of the cultural,
historical, and philosophical biases built into the method.”

Yes! but I think it would best be said, “USED in the method,” not “BUILT
into the method.” We can, being alerted, use the method (or revised
method) without these biases.

You also wrote:

“Furthermore, we should also recognize that the grammatico-historical
method was NOT the method of choice in the New Testament! Paul calls
his own interpretation of the Hagar and Sarah story “allegorical” (Gal
4.21-31; see esp. v. 24). (The NIV shies from “allegorical” and calls
its “figurative,” but see NASB and NRSV. The word is “allegorousthai,”
literally, “to be said allegorically.”) See also 1 Cor 10.1-5, where
Paul identifies the rock following the Israelites in Exodus as “Christ”
(v. 4). Now, in both cases, a straightforward grammatico-historical
reading of the Hagar-Sarah story and the Exodus account would NOT yield
the Pauline results of “earthly Jerusalem-heavenly Jerusalem” and
“Christ.” Was Paul wrong? No way! Or as Paul would say, “me genoito!”
🙂 But then, should we abandon our grammatico-historical method?
Well, not yet, at least not for me. But surely this tells me the G-H
methods is not as omnipotent and value-free as I once thought.

Well put, H.G. method of interpretation is not the choice of God’s
Spirit. But I’m not sure He was kept in a method-limitations. I do not
have any difficulties when Paul writes an allegorical interpretation. He
is under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. There is no problem with
allegorical interpretation when it is the Scriptures that is doing it.
But let a man not inspired by the Spirit propose an allegorical
interpretation and I am highly skeptical. How can I accept one
allegorical meaning over another allegorical meaning of the same passage?
The H.G. method gives an objectiveness
and removes much subjectivity to provide a bases to move together to its
meaning.
I am with you. There is no abandoning of this method.

I am persuaded that the best basis to reach a unity in our interpretation
is thru the historical-grammatical method of interpretation; and the best
basis to reach a unity in the church is a humble submission to God’s
Word.

I hope I did not misunderstand your points. I would appreciate your
further input and expansion.

That the unity in Christ may be seen,

Ben

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 02:10:48 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Bill’s parents’ salvation

Bill;

Thanks for sharing. How marvelous are the workings of God. Man can plan
and devise and reason how God would or would not work, but thanks be to
God, He is not like man.

Wow! ! Rejoicing with you,

Ben

——————————

From: Rlfong
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:48:42 EST
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: re: ABC ministry

In a message dated 97-12-23 03:13:39 EST, pastor@internationalchurch.org
(David Wong ) wrote:

<>

I’m not in a Chinese church for the simplist reason it’s too far to go to
Chinatown. As for the suburban churches, they tend more towards OBC
leadership than ABC; and its simply easier to go to a mainstream church and
serve and be appreciated without drowning in the doing everything at a chinese
church and being unappreciated.

before the flames start, note that there are graduations of ABC which we
should recognize and strive to reach. Those who speak Chinese and are 1st/2nd
generation immigrants; those who don’t speak Chinese; and those who live in
metro areas like California where there are enough Asians to be part of the
landscape and accepted into the mainstream churches. well, at least, that’s
my two cents worth.

Glad to see David didn’t drop out after the Cumberland experience and God is
still blessing you.

Ronnie Fong
who used to be a parishioner at Cumberland under David
but now is in a PCUSA church that has deaf, blind, black, Asian, hispanic and
white folks, with an evangelistic bent and social gospel tendencies too!, in
suburban Fremont, California ( San Francisco Bay Area ) living on the edge
known as the Hayward fault!

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:13:19 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: FYI: “Nation in the Balance”

Dear Mark:

On Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:23:22 EST LMGranfors writes:

>Please forgive my response earlier to “Nation in the Balance.” I
>appreciate
>and look forward to the CAC dialogue as well as information that is
>shared. I
>do get “spammed” occaisionally,…

Thanks for your kind explanation regarding a previous post. It’s no
problem at all!

I respect your heart’s desire to learn & grow by being part of the CAC
email list. It’s perfectly fine to “lurk” & to get a feel for the
subculture
of this forum. I also “lurked” for about a few months before becoming
more actively involved.

However, please feel free to share your ideas, experiences, & views
when you have some available moments. We are all here to sharpen
one another in Christ, by His grace & love, no matter how new we are
to ministry.

Christmas blessings!

In Him,
J. Chang

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 15:55:59 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: ignorant Americans

– ——- Forwarded Message Follows ——-

From: Marfluctus
To: cac@emwave.net

HarryLew wrote in a post dated 12-20 that

Hi, I am Hai-Tao Wang with Chinese Baptist Church of Orange County and I
have been “lurking” for sometime 🙂 I feel compeled to respond to this
because I don’t believe that is something that we should just accept and
propagate in the Chinese community. I realize that this hatred is very
strong among many of the older generation of Chinese and I understand
that. My family is from Nanjing and I had refused to buy anything
Japanese ever since I learned about the Nanjing Massacre in history book
some thirty years ago. I don’t believe my father was in the city when
the massacre occurred but my father does not talk about it very much and
the few times that I asked him about it, he simply evaded the question.
I have no way to find out if my family was ever directly affected by it.
However, I do know that my father dislikes communist more than he
dislikes Japanese because my uncle died in communist labor camp and that
is the reason why we are here in the USA. In any event, my own personal
hatred toward Japanese took a big turn when God took hold of that
hatred. A few years ago, I was starting the Brotherhood, men’s missions
involvement group, in my church. There was a very scant support in the
church except for my pastor. However, there is only one person who came
steadily and has always been supportive. Out of a church of about 500
Chinese, the only Japanese showed up everytime. I have always liked
Steve, the fact that he is Japanese does not bother me. He loves God
and that’s all that counts. As our friendship grew, God wanted me to
deal with that hatred inside me: how can I hate a whole nation/race when
He loves them all. I remembered the story of Jonah, not the fish part
but when he sat outside Nineveh wanting God to destroy it. Our God
loves all people and we should, too. God, working through Steve, in a
very quiet way changed 20 some years of hatred inside me. Yes, Nanjing
massacre was a horrible event and we should not delete it from history
book as some of Japanese extreme right attempt to do. However, I think
that we as Christians should use this situation to illustrate how much
greater is our God’s love. The pain in our memory cannot be erased but
His healing power and His love can overcome even that and make the scar
His victory mark! I don’t think that God wants us to dwell on that and
try to figure out what is fair. It is over and we need to move on. I
realize that many of the CACers do not feel very much about this event
just like a lot “ignorant Americans” but I think our God has better
things for us to do and let’s focus on sharing His Good News in this
Christmas season.

In His Love,

Hai-Tao Wang

ps. I finally owned a few made in Japan products and they are not bad 🙂
And, I even visited Japan last year and made some more Japanese
friends.

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 01:29:56 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: “A Christmas Alphabet”

Dear CACers:

Best wishes for a blessed Christmas! Enjoy the poem.

In Him,
J. Chang
– ————————————

A CHRISTMAS ALPHABET

(Taken From the Faith, Prayer & Tract League of Grand Rapids, Michigan)

A is for Angels, appearing so bright telling of Jesus that first
Christmas night.
“And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the
heavenly host.”

Luke 2:13

B is for Bethlehem, crowded and old, birthplace of Jesus by prophet
foretold.
“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, out of thee shall he come forth
unto me that is
to be ruler in Israel. Micah 5:2

C is for Cattle, their manger His bed there in the stable where He laid
His head.
“And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in
swaddling clothes,
and laid him in a manger.” Luke 2:7

D is for David and his ancient throne promised forever to Jesus alone.
“He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest;
and the Lord
God shall give unto him the throne of his father David. Luke 1:32

E is for East, where shone the bright star which Magi on camels followed
afar.
“Behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, saying,
Where is he
that is born King of the Jews?” Matthew 2:1,2

F is for Frankincense, with myrrh and gold, brought by the Wise Men as
Matthew has
told.
“And when they had opened their treasurers, they presented unto
him gifts:
gold, frankincense, and myrrh.” Matthew 2:11

G is for God, who from heaven above sent down to mankind the Son of His
love.
“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever
believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
John 3:16

H is for Herod, who murderous scheme was told to Joseph in a nocturnal
dream.
“The angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying,
Arise and take
the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt… for Herod
will seek the
young child to destroy him.” Matthew 2:13

I is for Immanuel, “God with us,” for Christ brought man back to the
Father’s house.
“Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call
his name
Immanuel.” Isaiah 7:14

J is for Joseph so noble and just, obeying God’s word with absolute
trust.
“Then Joseph being raised form sleep did as the angel of the Lord
had bidden
him, and took unto him his wife.” Matthew 1:24

K is for King. A true king He would be, coming in power and authority.
“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of
Jerusalem: behold,
they King cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation.”
Zechariah 9:9

L is for Love that He brought down to earth that night in the stable in
lowly birth.
“In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that
God sent his
only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through
him.” I John 4:9

M is for Mary, His mother so brave, counting God faithful and mighty to
save.
“And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me
according to thy
word.” Luke 1:38

N is for Night, when the Savior was born for nations of earth and people
forlorn.
“And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the
field, keeping
watch over their flock by night.” Luke 2:8

O is for Omega, meaning “the last;” He’s eternal: present, future and
past.
“I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first
and the last.”
Revelation 22:13

P is for Prophets, when living on earth foretold His redemption and
blessed birth.
“I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh:
there shall
come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of
Israel.” Numbers
24:17

Q is for Quickly, as shepherds who heard hastened to act on that heavenly
word.
“And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the
babe lying in a
manger.” Luke 2:16

R is for Rejoice. The sorrow of sin is banished forever when Jesus comes
in.
“And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at
his birth.”
Luke 1:14

S is for Savior. To be this He came; the angel of God assigned Him His
name.
“She shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS,
for he shall
save his people from their sins.” Matthew 1:21

T is for Tidings related to all, telling of Him who was born in a stall.
“And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring
you good tidings
of great joy, which shall be to all people.” Luke 2:10

U is for Us, to whom Jesus was given to show us the way and take us to
heaven.
“For unto you is born this day in the city of David, a Savior,
which is Christ
the Lord.” Luke 2:11

V is for Virgin, foretold by the sage, God’s revelation on prophecy’s
page.
“Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a
Son, and they
shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God
with us.” Matthew
1:23

W is for Wonderful, His works and His words, the King of all Kings, the
Lord of all
Lords.
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given… and his
name shall be
called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting
Father, The Prince
of Peace.” Isaiah 9:6

X is for Christ. it’s X in the Greek, Anointed, Messiah, mighty, yet
meek.
“God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with
power.” Acts 10:38

Y is for Yes, called God’s Yes in His Word; God’s answer to all is Jesus
the Lord.
“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen,
unto the glory of
God by us.” II Corinthians 1:20

Z is for Zeal as it burned in Christ’s heart. Lord, by thy Spirit to us
zeal impart.
“And his disciples remembered that it was written, the zeal of
thine house hath
eaten me up.” John 2:17

THIS IS THE ALPHABET FOR GREAT AND FOR SMALL; CHRISTMAS IS JESUS, OUR
LORD AND OUR ALL.

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 13:09:04 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Christmas as “somber celebration”

Dear Stephen:

Maybe I am lifted by the buoyancy of the season.

Rethinking Christmas, I was too gloomy when I limit its celebratory
nature. I still maintain that, according to the Philippian Hymn
(2.6-11), taking on flesh IS the beginning of suffering. But in light
of Paul’s (or properly, the Jewish apocalyptic) notion of “new
creation,” the incarnation is also the prelude towards God’s
reconciliation with humanity. I say “prelude,” because the first step
or first fruits of the new creation technically begins at Christ’s
resurrection, on Easter morning. Nevertheless, the incarnation, as God
pleased to dwell in human flesh, must be an affirmation of humanity, a
regeneration, a renewal of the goodness in humanity lost in the Garden.

Would “somber celebration” be an acceptable qualification?

Sze-kar

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:50:27 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: A Christmas Letter

A Christmas Letter tp CAC

Greetings to all as we strive to be worthy of the awesome gift of the
incarnation!

First, an apology to those who take offense at my ill-advised electronic
outburst. It’s not pretty, and it’s not something I am proud of. Could
I have handled it differently? Probably. But since I didn’t, I’ll have
live with the consequences.

But I want to address an alarming trend in CAC these past few weeks. We
are sliding precipitously down the slippery slope of factionalism. Ben
writes: “That the unity in Christ may be seen.” I second this call.

CAC is a diverse body. We Asian Americans are culturally complex. We
live in at least two cultures. We see things a monocultural person
can’t. We experience culture, the mass media, national events,
politics, international conflicts all very differently–even from each
other. By a slight tilt of our internal cultural balance we are liable
to becoming more “Asian,” “colored,” “white,” “metropolitan,” “ABC,”
“OBC,” “ARC,” “first-generation,” “nth-generation,” “East coast,”
“Californian,” or any combination thereof. Some of us speak Taishanese
as our mother-tongue, others English, Cantonese, Mandarin, Tagalog,
Japanese, Korean. Some of us are multilingual; others are primarily
English-speakers. Some of us apologize for our bad grammar; other can’t
help writing lucid prose. But we all take part in CAC, and we all
contribute in whatever way we can.

We are theologically diverse. We may be selfconsciously Evangelical,
mainline, Pentacostal, Catholic, etc. We differ on the meanings of
atonement, hermeneutics, incarnation, Christmas, exegesis, etc. We
embody different liturgical traditions. Some of us find it more
comfortable to worship with the Book of Common Prayers. Others find
nourishment in a substantial biblical sermon. Some of us would be
remiss if we didn’t have Eucharist every Sunday. Others are content
with a monthly communion service. Some of us, in our meditative
prayers, seek the help of music–Medieval chants, Wesleyan hymnody,
Christian Rocks, baptized Chinese folk tunes, whatever. Others prefer
silence. But we all pray. We all stand, kneel, sit before God in
humility and in awe. We pledge willing and willful allegiance to Christ
as our Lord, as our only mediator to God, as the only Revealer from
God. We submit to Christ as slaves, daily being led to our death if not
for the extraordinary grace which we do not deserve.

We are vocationally diverse. Some of us are engaged in the frontline of
ministry, in the trenches getting our spiritual fingernails dirty.
Others less gifted in the practical can indirectly contribute resources
and analysis. Some of us are laypersons playing a supportive role to
the clergy. Others are in fulltime ministry. Some of us are called to
preach, others to church planting. Some of us are called to minister to
our congregations, some to preach the good news to the lost, others to
work with college students, still others to teach and write. But we all
dedicate ourselves to the Gospel and to the demands it places on our
lives.

Given these differences, it’s no surprise that we also belong to
different political parties. Some of us are Republicans, some
Democrats, others Independents. We probably have different takes on the
burning social issues of the day, whatever they be. It would indeed be
a surprise if there WEREN’T such diversity. Yet, we are all united in
our cultural biculturalism and in our commitment to Christ as our Lord.
We are clear about our primary identity as Asian-American Christians.

Asian American Christianity is not a monolith–indeed, it cannot be.
We’d do ourselves a disservice if we judged each other by a single set
of standards. CAC would lose its most distinguishing feature, its
luster, if we allowed ourselves to be divided by the slogan du jour or
simplistic and expedient labels. These labels are developed elsewhere.
They do not speak to the depths of our experience, and they certainly do
not define our identity as Asian-American Christians.

CAC stands before a fork in a road. But the two roadsigns ahead DO NOT
say “conservative” and “liberal.” They say “unity” and “division.” Our
present course will take us into factionalism and division if we allow
it to continue. It will not promote unity.

To go down the path of unity, ALL CACers will have to exert our best
efforts together–with ALL OF US throwing our collective weight behind
CAC, willing to speak, explore, probe, debate, argue, study, submit to
the truth in love, learning to tolerate, accept, rejoice in, beam at,
revel in our amphibious, theological, vocational, social, political
diversity.

Does CAC have room for ALL brothers and sisters? It’s our choice.

Peace and grace,
Sze-kar

——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 18:10:29 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: A Christmas Letter

Dear Sze-kar and our other CAC brethren/sisthren(?):

What a fitting and timely message for Bro. S-k to pen the previous
email, exuding, imho, the spirit of “peace on earth and goodwill to all
people” that was proclaimed that wondrous night when Jesus came to earth
as a babe.

As I perused your attempt at describing the vast diversity of our CAC
cyber-community, I kept saying to myself “And do you truly believe that
all of these diverse individuals who love Jesus will one day be co-heirs
with Christ and conjoint citizens in the heavenly realms? Do you really
believe that all of these are seen by the Lord Himself as saintly
sinners?” That to me makes all the difference in our attitudes and our
deportment…for family members do often disagree but it should always
be with the innate knowledge that [HIS] BLOOD is thicker than warfare!

Happy New Year to you all!

love, ken fong.

——————————

From: wkmoy@juno.com
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:33:35 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Articles in AsianWeek (12/18 & 12/25)

Just wanted to note that the previous article “ASIAN AMERICAN
YOUNG FOUND BETTER-EDUCATED” found in 12/10 ed of SJMercury News,
Washington,
is also in the Dec 18th (-24th) issue of AsianWeek (@ least the SF ed)
(website listed below)

Dec 25 – Jan 7 issue of AsianWeek features the Year In Review.
Article of note: “The Cusp of New Era: Five Trends to Watch in ’98”,
from the Washington Journal by Frank Wu
1) Using New Race Relations Paradigms
2) Assimilation Rather than Immigration as the Paramount Issue
of Diversity
3) Encouraging Diversity within Diversity
4) The Trends Toward Transnationalism
5) Increasing Activism

Just for thought: In another article, writer Emil Guillermo notes in his
list of top stories for ’97, lists Best Race Issue as . . . you guessed
it: Affirmative Action.
Guillermo writes: Beats out immigration by a nose, followed by
bilingual education, live-animal killing in Chinatown markets, and
Latrell Sprewell. 1997 will be remembered as the year Prop 209 became
law. As society becomes more diverse, more people are pushing
“colorblindness” in lieu of “fairness.” But to others “colorblindness”
is a positive spin on “invisibility.”

******For those w/ Web/Net access: http://www.asianweek.com
Only up to the Dec 4-10th issue is online . . .

Happy reading & God’s blessings for ’98, Wilbur
– ——————————————————————————
c/o CE Intern, Sunset Chinese Baptist Church
3635 Lawton St. SF, CA 94122 (415) 665-5550
Fax: 665-4575 office: 665-9749 home: 753-8466
e-mail: wkmoy@juno.com

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 21:42:25 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Forgiveness

Dear Fenggang and Hai-tao:

Thank you for raising the issue of forgiveness. It’s a question fraught
with implications, ethnic, ethical, and theological. Here are some
thoughts of mine.

It seems to me that we must begin with our ethical norms, and these
norms are based on two distinctions. First, justice must be
distinguished from forgiveness. Normally, there must be justice first
before there is forgiveness. Justice makes forgiveness possible and is
the prerequisite for it. This seems to be Paul’s action in 2 Cor 2.5-11:
the erring one has to repent of his or her deeds against Paul before
Paul forgives the offender. Without repentance, forgiveness seems empty
and disingenuous.

The reason seems to be that the underlying theological structure that
governs both justice and forgiveness is reconciliation. Neither
forgiveness nor justice is the final goal of corporate life together,
but reconciliation. God first reconciles the world to himself (2 Cor
5.18-19), which then prepares the ground for us to be reconciled to
others. But God would be “unable” (logically speaking) to reconcile us
to himself if we refused to repent and maintained our enmity with God.
Likewise, our brothers and sisters would be “unable” (even if they try)
to be reconciled to us if we refused to admit to our wrongs.

Second, we can’t confuse between individual and corporate or national
responsibilities. A holocaust survivor may be perfectly willing to
relate to a German, and I’ve seen many such examples. But just as one
individual German cannot bear the sin of the German nation (let alone
one that was in power 50 years ago), one individual Jew has no right to
absolve the collect German guilt on behalf of his or her fellow Jews.
Accordingly we must distinguish between individual and corporate
repentance, between individual and corporate forgiveness. Repentance and
forgiveness–better, reconciliation–have to be pursued at BOTH levels,
and one level cannot replace the other.

That said, if we appealed to these ethical norms legalistically, we’d
have a hard time understanding the command of Jesus “to love our
enemies” or his call to God to forgive his tormentors (cited by
Fenggang). Jesus seems to be working outside these norms. How do we
appropriate the ethics of Jesus? Here is my provisional solution.

Jesus preaches the Kingdom of God and his ethical teachings are an
integral part of his message. The ethics of Jesus should therefore be
called “Kingdom ethics.” The word “kingdom” is somewhat misleading. It
translates the Greek (“basileia”) literally, but it gives the impression
that it refers to a geographical and national realm. But the “Kingdom of
God” that Jesus preaches clearly does not refer to such, and the gospel
accounts do not portray Jesus as a national leader. It’s called the
Kingdom of God, rather, because the KING is here. Jesus is the king who
promulgates commands and a new message. (Incidentally, that is why
translating the Greek phrase as “the REIGN of God” does not work.)
“Kingdom ethics,” accordingly, is based not on an ethical norm per se
but on what the king pronounces to be the case. It is not based on an
abstract, impersonal standard but on the personal judgment of the king
himself. This is why, e.g., in the Parable of the Vineyard Workers (Mt
20.1-16), those who work only one hour get exactly the same wage as
those who work the whole day. The king decides to whom to show grace and
how.

Lest we think Jesus’ kingdom ethics consists of mere despotic
pronouncements, we should remember that the dispute is always about
grace, that is, how much grace does one “deserve” over against someone
else. Jesus’ answer? It’s the king’s prerogative to grant however much
grace to whomever he pleases.

Three corollaries are applicable to our question: (1) Jesus’ Kingdom
ethics does not contradict the need for ethical standards. Jesus does
not make despotic pronouncements like murder is permitted, adultery is
good, etc. Kingdom ethics upholds rather than abrogates justice.

(2) But any ethical norm is grounded in the transcendent pronouncements
of God. That is, while we uphold ethical standards, we at the same time
must be aware that it is God who stands behind them and makes them
properly “just.” This is what makes forgiveness possible, for while God
defines justice, he can also reach behind justice, as it were, to
accomplish a higher purpose, namely reconciliation.

(3) If this is the case, we are strictly LIMITED in the way we can
legitimately imitate Jesus’ acts of forgiveness. While it is perfectly
legitimate for Jesus to forgive sinners (for sin is after all is a
trespass against the king), we cannot pronounce pardon without risking
deifying ourselves. Nonetheless, forgiveness–better,
reconciliation–must remain the main structure that props up our ethical
norms; reconciliation must continue to characterize how we apply our
ethical norms.

In conclusion, I agree with Fenggang that the world cannot forget the
Nanjing Massacre–so long as Japan (be it understood in terms of
government, people, culture, etc.) refuses to acknowledge the event,
make the necessary reparations, openly teach the evil of the its past,
and thoroughly repent of its war crimes. Then and only then is
forgiveness possible. But remembrance of the Massacre has no meaning of
its own. It’s not an absolute good. It’s a means, a necessary means, to
reconciliation.

By way of comparison, some young Israeli writers (David Grossman and
Amos Oz come to mind) are beginning to call Jews to move beyond the
holocaust and to come to some kind of reconciliation–after Germany has
made a concerted and sincere effort at repentance. Now, it would be
grossly impertinent and presumptuous if someone like me were to make
such a statement. Only victims, direct or indirect, have the right to
make a conciliatory gesture.

On the other hand, I think Hai-tao is also right in befriending Japanese
brothers and sisters. In fact, one hope of bringing Japan to its senses
begins with Japanese Christians. The Japanese theologian Kosuke Koyama
has been calling, for years now, for repentance, as do a number of
Japanese Christians I’ve met. Work done in this area can only contribute
in the long run to corporate forgiveness and reconciliation.

Some some thoughts,
Sze-kar

——————————

From: Ahlau@aol.com
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 01:17:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: re: ABC ministry

thanks JTW for your personal testimony.

i too came to Christ later in life (at 27!). The Chinese church i am at seems
to focus on reaching out to OBC’s with the services they need with less
ability or emphasis to the English speaking. folks seem to think that if
people are able to speak english and hold jobs they are on their way.
anything else seems to be unwelcome. what about cross cultural support for
families (parents and children) or issues around esteem, money, and jobs for
high school and college students? I work with the youth and young adults and
see plenty of need there as well as for their parents.
we are more in the maintainance mode for later generation folks who are in
the church than continued discipling or knowing how to reach out to other
English speakers.
I find that I struggle to help people who are long time Christians remember
their first love and why they are there, whereas for me it is still very
fresh in my memory and life. before and after are all too clear to me.

blessings, anne lau
associate pastor
chinese community united methodist
oakland, ca

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:53:45 -0700
Subject: CAC_Mail: some new song lyrics–G

on our moon rocks

like a liner you in black fields of ice
the white star side you have shown
will be sinkin’ when th’ light grows dark in the seas
in th’ well where the rocks will be thrown

and th’ bottomless pit is no place to be
risin’ (up) to heaven, but to sink like a stone

as soon as th’ sun sets under the stars
blood fills the blue skies, your future’s unknown
asleep in the cosmos by day behind bars
you float in the night air, oh so alone

and comin’ to nought like water on Mars
you’d rise to th’ heavens, but to sink like a stone

th’ darkness your shade like a porch on th’ side
your house needs a coat like a home
and i’m wishin’ you’d find th’ warm place to hide
not six feet down like Capone
with curved coffin corners, longer than wide…

but rising to heaven, you sink like a stone

but rising to heaven, you sink like a stone…

——————————

From: leungs
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 97 13:40:00 E
Subject: RE: CAC_Mail: Christmas as “somber celebration”

Dear Brother Sze-kar,

You have been prolifically supplying us much to ponder over Christmas. I
have been home to the computer-less world of my parents and enjoyed the
rest. I’ll try to catch up at home. But as for you suggestion, “somber
celebration” is more than adequate. It is fitting and even necessary.
Observing rampant celebration of what isn’t known/understood/internalized
does bring dismay.

An affirmation and regeneration are indeed blessed aspects of God’s
indescribable gift. Facing once again the realities of the “thorn” in my
nuclear family’s flesh, I am again humbled by that affirmation of humanity.
Returning to VA and learning the fact that in our church family there are
two funerals to attend and two in the hospital (one in the ICU) to visit,
I’m thankful for the resurrection secured by Christ and the regeneration
granted.

Brother David Wong’s point about ABCs’ shortage of bedside manners may even
spill over in application to graveside. This morning’s funeral service and
burial was for the paternal grandmother of one of our sisters. It was again
unfamiliar territory. Though the family requested that our pastor
officiate, the family and their friends carried out traditional
“non-Christian” formalities. Imagine my chagrin when I was informed
afterwards by a fellow parishioner, that when I had “followed” the family in
turning away from the casket as it was lowered into the ground that this was
actually participating in a superstitious notion of turning away from evil
spirits. Chalk up another one to an “ignorant ABC!” Blew that chance to
witness.

Was it Brother Peter Szto that offered up a study regarding Asian weddings?
Anyone else assembled material on Asian funerals?

Somberly,
Stephen

———-
From: Sze-kar Wan
To: CAC
Subject: CAC_Mail: Christmas as “somber celebration”
Date: Friday, December 26, 1997 1:09PM

Dear Stephen:

Maybe I am lifted by the buoyancy of the season.

Rethinking Christmas, I was too gloomy when I limit its celebratory
nature. I still maintain that, according to the Philippian Hymn
(2.6-11), taking on flesh IS the beginning of suffering. But in light
of Paul?s (or properly, the Jewish apocalyptic) notion of ?new
creation,? the incarnation is also the prelude towards God?s
reconciliation with humanity. I say “prelude,” because the first step
or first fruits of the new creation technically begins at Christ?s
resurrection, on Easter morning. Nevertheless, the incarnation, as God
pleased to dwell in human flesh, must be an affirmation of humanity, a
regeneration, a renewal of the goodness in humanity lost in the Garden.

Would “somber celebration” be an acceptable qualification?

Sze-kar

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:13:11 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Christmas as “somber celebration”

Dear Stephen:

While I am usually fairly open-minded about blending Chinese funeral
customs into a Christian service, turning one’s back to the coffin being
lowered into the grave is definitely something I wouldn’t condone.
Depending on the region it means something like not letting the dead see
your face so as not to give them a chance at possessing the living–at
least according to Cantonese folk customs. Something similar is also
responsible for not letting pregnant woman attend funerals. All this I
have difficulty integrating into a Christian understanding of death.
But maybe Peter Szto and others have a different take on this.

Sze-kar

——————————

From: Rev Cow
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:27:07 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: Reaching the unchurched

Dear Jonathan,

My name is Ted, and I pastor a new church plant in Monterey Park, CA. I
read your post with great interest, because our church strives to be
seeker sensitive (while not becoming seeker driven). I’m glad to see
that you have made that distinction as well (you use the phrases “seeker
sensitive” vs. “seeker targeted”).

I have a suggestion regarding seeker services. You mentioned that you
have seeker services twice a year, and that a great deal of effort goes
into those two services. What we’ve done with a degree of success is
incorporated high impact/low maintenance seeker sensitive “ingredients”
in _every_ service. The main benefit is that seekers will always feel
welcomed no matter which Sunday they attend. Otherwise, when these
seekers return and find that the regular services aren’t seeker
sensitive, they receive mixed messages. Other benefits are too numerous
to elaborate on.

Obviously, other spiritual ingredients must exist at the church for this
to work (spiritual maturity, love for the lost, love of God, etc.).

It’s interesting that the main model brought up for discussion has been
Willow Creek. We’ve been considering and experimenting with Willow
Creek, Vineyard, and Saddleback principles and methodologies,
Saddleback’s being the most successful. We began last Easter with 30
second generation members from a Taiwanese church, and now we have 60+ in
attendance and becoming multi-racial. For Christmas Sunday, we sent out
5,549 invitations out to the community, and had a record 169 people in
attendance. One person made a decision to receive Christ, with two more
the following Sunday.

Looking forward to an ongoing dialog with you.

God bless you all this upcoming year,
Ted

Rev. Ted Kau
Harvest San Gabriel Valley

I use not only all the brains I have,
but all I can borrow.
– –Woodrow Wilson

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:51:52 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Reaching the unchurched

What Jonathan, Ronnie, Anne, and Ted have brought to our attention is
the seeming difficulties of reaching English-speaking (2d- and
later-generation) AsiAms. This seems to be in glaring contrast to
large, numerally successful Chinese-speaking congregations. Why this
disparity? I have a few guesses (as I unfortuantely always do), but I’d
like to hear more from those of you directly engaged in English-speaking
ministry.

Also, Ted or anyone else, could you elaborate for me the “Willow Creek,
Vineyard, and Saddleback principles and methodologies.” I am involved
in a very small mainland Chinese immigrant, Cantonese-speaking church
(about 35/Sunday), and I am not up to speed on these church-growth
models. Thanks.

Sze-kar

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:37:36 -0800
Subject: CAC_Mail: Anatomy of an ABC Body of Christ

Anatomy of an ABC Body of Christ
or
Making it Difficult for ABCs to Go to Hell

[A SECRET of Success: Approach ministry with the
premise that Jesus is building His church like He said.
We take Him at His word. If we by faith obey His
directions, we become the instrument in His hand in
building His church. . . . Not by might, nor by
power, but by my Spirit,” says the Lord.

Any pressure to succeed belongs to the Lord
because it is His vision, plan, and Spirit; whether we
win one or one million, to us what counts is “Well done,
good and faithful servant!” That’s all I want to hear.
There is no failure in obedience.

We tend to make our own plans, do it our way,
then ask God to rubber stamp His blessing on it.
Well-meaning, sincere people, even Christians,
by the flesh–scientifically, ingenuity, hard work–
can build a “successful” work, e.g., Mormons, JWs,
Scientology, etc. . . but not a church that glorifies
Christ. . .even though it may have large numbers.]

1. Begin with a PERSON called by God to ABCs who
will speak fearlessly with authority as sent from God.
One who knows God and can make Him known.
God always finds a man to carry out His redemptive
plan and missions. . .Abraham, Moses, Philip, Barnabas,
Epaphroditus, etc.
Christ was sent to seek and save that which is lost
but was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel, Mt.15.24
Paul was sent to the Gentiles, Ro.15.15,16

Might you be called to the lost ABC sheep of America?
Be assured of this: the enemy will try to slay the
shepherd to scatter the sheep or otherwise wreak his
havoc a myriad of ways. . .he may even try to
stop you before you get started as he attempted with
Moses and Jesus. In any case you will pay a price. . .
after all, it is warfare!

2. Begin with a CORE group of believers sold out to Christ
and committed to each other. [The way a believer
gives and tithes is indicative of the depth of his devotion]
Disciple them so that they believe what you believe to
have a unity of faith, commitment to the same vision, etc
Do everything you can to teach them to love one another as
Christ has loved them. . .
“so the world will know you are my disciples”
Christ started with 12; He prayed all night before He
chose them . . .must be important.

3. Seek and obtain God’s VISION for the church. Without
a vision the people perish . . .the church becomes
aimless and lifeless, without direction and motivation.
There may be many programs and activities, but they are
recipes for busyness and burnout. What is
successful for other churches is not likely to be
successful for you. . .don’t look to WillowCreek,
ExplosionEvangelism, Saddleback, etc unless the
Lord gives you that vision . . .look to the Lord.
In your seeking, seek the Father’s heart for ABCs.
I bet you’ll find His passion and compassion that
He will pass on to you along with His vision.
And note the numerous times Jesus is moved
by compassion before He heals and preaches
. . .compassion preceding ministry.
Remember as you seek, He will give you
His vision not to merely build a glorious church
but because He loves ABCs and is not
willing that any should perish. However,
an outcome will be a glorious church.

4. Make corporate WORSHIP a top priority in
the body life of the church. Worship is the most
important, highest, greatest spiritual activity of the
church. That makes the worship leader the most
important person in leadership next to the pastor .
Isaiah 61:11
“For as the soil makes the sprout come up
and a garden causes seeds to grow,
so the Sovereign Lord will make righteousness and
praise spring up before all nations.”

Singspiration is not worship; neither is singing holy
hymns in a holy sanctuary. True worship ( in spirit
and truth) is like fellowship with the Spirit; there is
closeness and mutual giving . . .our giving to God
in offerings, praises, thanksgiving, adoration,
expressions of our hearts given to Him (which could
involve songs, hymns, money, prayers). . . and
Christ in the midst of His people (2 or 3 gathered
in His name) gives back—He will not be outgiven.
He gives His manifested presence . . .and wherever
His presence, there is power, there is healing,
there is fullness of joy and peace. It is like heaven!

GOD IS IN THE HOUSE!
Wherever Jesus went, people sought Him and
followed Him. He was an attraction in Himself.
His body, the church, is meant to represent Him,
be like Him and do the things He did.
The world should be able to see Christ in His
Church because of His presence, beauty, and
power in the house. People will break thru the
roof to get in! Even ABCs today need and
want what Jesus has to offer. . .and they
can and will be attracted to God thru His people
who knows how to worship and show forth the
glory of Christ.

5. As the focus of worship is God, there ought
to be intercessory PRAYER to focus on people,
for the souls and needs of ABCs, love ones,
friends, enemies. . .specific prayer for specific
individuals, not “God please save the world!”

If the church will pray, the church will grow.
Rely on prayer more than programs. If a church
gets 10% percent of its members to prayer meeting,
every week, its considered doing well. I don’t think
so. There ought to be a 75% turnout every week . . .
and its exciting and the church comes alive!
And only life beget life. (75% is not hard if
the above 4 parts are in place)

And GOD WILL ADD to your number all who
are being saved (Acts 2)!

It is hard to accept the sovereignty of God because
we want to move before He moves . . .sometimes it
seems like He is doing nothing to save our generation.
We may even think He is waiting for us–in a way He is.
But it is more like us not waiting on Him.
However, even now,
God is moving in many of our hearts who love Him and
love our people…He must too because He made so many
of us. I think that just because there are
so many like you in CAC, who have been moved to
speak forth your heart in concern for ABCs is evidence
God is not doing nothing! He is doing something and
He will break forth like a flood!

Happy New Year!

bill leong

——————————

From: The Yees
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:51:24 +0000
Subject: CAC_Mail: _Rape of Nanjing_

For those in the Bay Area, Iris Chang will be at
Oakland’s Barnes & Noble (Jack London Square) for a
reading and booksigning January 29, 7:30 P.M. There
was also a feature piece on her and her book
in the _Oakland Tribune_ (and probably the other
ANG papers) 12/23, Cue-4. “‘You think you know what
evil is,’ Chang said, ‘how bad things can be. But
nothing prepared me for what I found. Even stories
and films of the Holocaust.'”

Russell Yee
Oakland

——————————

From: “GE Liang”
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:01:35 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: books

CACers,

While on the subject of books, _Christianity_and_Culture_in_the_Crossfire_ has been
out for about eight months now. Has anyone read this new book and/or care to review?
It is edited by Bobby Fong and David A. Hoekema and published by Eerdmans.

The Amazon Books site for it is:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0802843239/8020-7950423-103351

(Wonder how different it is from Niebuhr’s _Christ_and_Culture_ or T.S. Eliot’s _Christianity_and_Culture_.)

Happy New Years!

G.E.

>For those in the Bay Area, Iris Chang will be at
>Oakland’s Barnes & Noble (Jack London Square) for a
>reading and booksigning January 29, 7:30 P.M. There
>was also a feature piece on her and her book
>in the _Oakland Tribune_ (and probably the other
>ANG papers) 12/23, Cue-4. “‘You think you know what
>evil is,’ Chang said, ‘how bad things can be. But
>nothing prepared me for what I found. Even stories
>and films of the Holocaust.'”

— End —

Advertisements

Nanjing Massacre; more on demographics

To: cac@emwave.net
——————————

From: wkmoy@juno.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:00:40 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: (long) ad: Looking for Worship/Music Director

Warm wishes for the Advent season!
I am posting an ad for our church re: Director of Music &
Worship.
If you know of anyone who might be qualified or interested,
please feel free to forward/ circulate them a copy &/or let me know & I
can forward them a copy. If you are near or part of a seminary, bible
college or other possible posting area or circulation, please feel free
to post/ circulate a copy. Your help is greatly appreciated.
Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions –
Thanks.
Peace as you celebrate Christ this Christmas. Wilbur

c/oCE Intern @ Sunset Chinese Baptist Church (415)665-5550
3635 Lawton St, San Francisco, CA 94122 FAX: 665-4575
e-mail: wkmoy@juno.com office: (415) 665-9749

DIRECTOR OF WORSHIP AND MUSIC
Job Description
Sunset Chinese Baptist Church

GENERAL DESCRIPTION
The director of worship & music for the Eng dept of our church has the
responsibility of developing & leading the worship & music ministry in a
growing & progressive church in San Francisco. Our church body is
currently about 900, and we have a vision to church branch to the
mid-peninsula area within the coming yr. Our goal is to expand our
ministry to 2,00 people in the next 5 yrs. We believe that music is
important, and we want our worship/ music ministry to be of a very high
caliber. We are seeking an individual who loves God, who is gifted in
music, and who would like to join our ministry staff to promote the
gospel of Jesus Christ in the San Francisco area. The position can be
either a part time, or a full time position.

AREAS of RESPONSIBILITY
To develop an overall music vision that will help to fulfill the vision
of our church
To train, recruit, and motivate our worship team, musicians, singers &
song leaders
To coordinate soloists, duets, ensembles, who will perform during our
worship services
To direct & coordinate our choral ministry
To supervise our technical crew & manage audio equipment
To develop a music ministry for our youth & children

QUALIFICATIONS
A dedicated believer in Jesus Christ
Musical degree
Vocal & keyboard skill, with a definite ability to lead worship in a
contemporary style
Administrative skills (ability to oversee & schedule 3 worship services @
2 different locations)
Ability to work w/ people
Conservative in theology, but progressive in philosophy of ministry
Experienced

If you are interested in applying for this position, please send your
resume to:
Pastor Jeff Louie
Sunset Chinese Baptist Church
3635 Lawton Street
San Francisco, CA 94122
(415) 665-5550 Fax: (415) 665-4575

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:25:39 -0700
Subject: CAC_Mail: fresh poetry–Happy Holidays!

christmas Tree blues

the sheriffs went to bethlehem to hold a law convention
were held up on their way through galilee
the crim’nals were barabbas with the mayor’s intervention
so the sheriffs took their anger out on me

the mayor slept with caesar and they stood around a fire
a bailiff brought salt bagels and orange tea
six soldiers heard them laughing when a rooster stretched its lungs
then they asked if it meant any thing to me

i said why the gen’rals too?
i do not resist
peace has come upon them
can’t you see
but they’ve built some sturdy silos on the ground behind your barns
with some missiles aimed at heaven just for me

and the people feel free now when they are not obligated
and they love to tame the wild, then decree
the rule of law is lacking in the jungle here today
but the laws are here for others, not for me

the sheriffs are my brothers tho, my people are on trial
as they fall to earth my rising stars shall be
barabbas wears a badge for now, will keynote the convention
it would help if he had had a word with me… g

——————————

From: Samuel Ling
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:20:23 -0800
Subject: CAC_Mail: A Christmas prayer

Dear Lord Jesus Christ,
Incarnate God-man and Risen King,

How silently, how silently
the gift which was You
was given!

May you silence our
engines and planners
that we may see,
that we may hear
and adore You again
this season.

Thank You for sensitizing us
to students,
to family,
to colleagues,
to consumerism and materialism
in this our culture.

Thank You for allowing us to
love,
speak,
listen,
mentor,
and care.
Every burden and
opportunity has been worthwhile, Lord.

We are tired,
we are grateful,
we feel like giving thanks
and crying
and laughing with our loved ones
all because
we have Someone to turn to
with our thanks, laughter and tears.

May we quietly, silently
return to You
the gift which is
ourselves.

>From our hearts, in Your name,
Amen.

——————————

From: darryl_fong@juno.com (darryl fong)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:58:38 -0800
Subject: CAC_Mail: Email

CACer’s,

Does anyone have a list of email addresses of the pastors of the known
Asian American churches, large or small. I would be interested in
contacting a few of them.

Thanks – Darryl Fong in California

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:10:48 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Demographics and % Christians

– —–Original Message—–
From: Samuel Ling
To: Fenggang Yang
Cc: JLoFEC@aol.com
Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997 1:13 AM
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Demographics and % Christians

>Fenggang and John,
>
>I am glad Fenggang is giving so much data and
>insights to this discussion.
>
>I believe that the surveys are skewed. As I said
>to John, only middle-class people would answer
>phone surveys. Thousands of restaurant, grocery,
>sweatshop and other blue collars don’t bother
>to answer phone surveys. That is why I don’t
>trust the phone surveys. (Is this your speculation,
>Fenggang?)
>
>A number of CCCOWE and other surveys have
>pointed out the same thing as you said, Fenggang:
># of Chinese Christians is definitely not keeping
>up with the explosive growth of the Chinese
>community in N. America.

Sam,

About the discrepancies between Chinese pastors’ estimates of Christians
among the Chinese in the U.S. (5-10%) and reports of social surveys and
polls (32%), my speculations are:

1. as you pointed out, blue collor Chinese workers would not be reached
by phones. In other words, it is possible that the percent of
Christians among lower-middle class Chinese is much lower than
middle-class Chinese. Surveys tend to inflate the percentage by
generalizing to the whole Chinese population when surveyed only
middle-class professionals.

2. however, I think Chinese pastors’ estimates are too low because these
were based on counting heads in a “typical” Sunday service attendance.
A “typical” Sunday is not a good indicator of how many are Christians.
First of all, not all Christians can regularly go to church on every
Sunday (sick, out of town, job schedule, etc.); second, not all
Christians attend church weekly (some may prefer attend church twice or
once a month); third, not all Chinese Christians go to Chinese churches
(very important aspect in light of recent CAC discussion of multi-ethnic
churches).

3. Moreover, the surveys/polls usually ask the question of religious
preference/identification. Some people may claim to be Christians but
do not affiliate with any particular church, or even are not baptized.
Thinking about “cultural Christians”, or those who have made the
decision (jue-zhi) but not yet been baptized (shou xi). They may
subscribe to some Christian ideas but not committed believers per se.
[By the way, these non-affiliated self-claimed Christians are good
targets of evangelism. With proper facility, these uncommitted
Christians can become practicing Christians. Agree?]

4. Of course, to answer survey/poll questions, some respondants may
simply give a response without telling the truth, or answering “I’m a
Christian” in order to comply to the perceived norm in the U.S.
(“because a majority of Americans are Christians, it may make me look
normal to claim my Chrisitan adherence”).

5. Nevertheless, the polls/surveys show that there are more Chinese
claim to be Christians than Buddhists or any other religion. Putting
this in a historical perspective, I see it extremely important. I want
to make the ponit that “Christianity has become the most practiced
religion among the Chinese in the United States.” If this statement is
true, then we have witnessed a radically revolutionary change in the
history of the Chinese. Instead of a “foreign religion” (yang jiao)
incompatible to Chinese culture, Chrisitianity is becoming a religion of
the Chinese. If the high percentage can be substantiated, we have much
to celebrate. Don’t you think so?

6. For ministers who want to mobilize resources for further
evangelization to the Chinese, either OBC or ABC, it is not necessary to
reduce the % as low as possible. Overall, there are still a majority, a
vast majority indeed, of Chinese are not Christians. How many is the
70% of 1.6 million (or 2 million by now)? Don’t you think you have
enough work to do even if only 70% of Chinese are left to be
evangelized? Thinking about Koreans. Surveys repeatedly report that
over 70% Koreans in the U.S. attend churches and most of them attend
weekly (or more than once a week!). However, Korean Christians have not
reduced their zeal to evangelize (right?). By sociological
understanding, (damn my mundane profession), a 75% could be the highest
% you can reach. The other 25% will not become Christians in a free
religious market no matter how well Christian evangelism you do.

Now the question is still statistics. Can we come up a good solid
estimate of the proportion of Christians among the Chinese in the United
States? The estimates so far are not satisfactory at all. The social
surveys/polls I know of are not really centered on religious beliefs and
practices of Chinese Americans. The religion question is only a
side-track one and the people who conducted those surveys/polls were not
really interested in religion. If there is resource, we really should
do a good survey of religious beliefs and practices of Chinese in the
U.S. That will facilitate ministry planning and strategy designing, I
think.

Fenggang
– —————————————————————
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

——————————

From: HarryWLew@aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:17:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: FYI: AA article & API Census Bureau stats

Dear Wilbur,

What are you trying to do? Perpetuate “the myth of the model minority”?

You’re going to draw out all the multicultural relativists and racialists who
will qualify the good news and tell us about the down side of those facts.

😉

Yours in Christ,
Harry Lew

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:15:46 -0600
Subject: CAC_Mail: %

CAC seems inactive lately. Is there any problem?

I’m reading an article, which has this info.

In Los Angeles Consolidated Methropolitan Statistical Area, 1990 Census
reported that there were 171,922 Chinese, among them, 90.0% were
foreign-born. Any comments?
– —————————————————————
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

——————————

From: leungs
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 08:40:00 E
Subject: CAC_Mail: Korean Connections

Greetings All,

It’s been QUIET lately!=)

I’d like to solicit information again on the Mark’s Upper Room Movement
(henceforth referred to as MURM). Perhaps you know some Korean Americans
whose churches have dealt with them. Would you pass their names and how I
might contact them, please?

I’ve also heard it mentioned that most KAC’s tie into a particular web site
to share information. Any idea what the URL is of this popular “home
page?” I’m hoping there might be information on the MURM there as well.

MURM representatives are back now for the second time wooing our church to
join them. They are Christ/salvation-centered, placing a premium on
evangelism. We hear that there are charges that they are heretical or
cultic. Yet, what they have presented to us is not un-Biblical, just
possibly reductionistic (not encouraging regard for the whole counsel of
God). I am afraid they simply haven’t tipped their hand yet.

MURM started in Korea and has migrated to the US, along with many other
places in Asia. It is reported to have been denounced by some presbytries
in Korea and to have caused a significant number of “splits” in Korean
Churches here in the US. Of course, the MURM representatives dismiss this
as “political” attacks motivated by fear from churches who have lost members
to the movement and congregations that have left to embrace them.

What’s worse is that now our pastors and elders are already split on whether
to continue granting MURM further audience. Our Sr. Pastor finds MURM very
appealing, and had convinced most of our veteran elders of the same. Our
other pastors, trained in US seminaries, have serious reservations, as do
our newer/younger elders who are frequent listeners to shows like “The Bible
Answer Man,” and are more aware of cults and the way they operate.

Enough said. Any information would be much appreciated.

Prayerfully,
Stephen

P.S. Apologies to anyone trying to reach me on my personal e-mail. The
hard drive is shot, and I’ve been too busy to replace it.

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:12:50 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: ministry opportunity in Mountain View CA

Date sent: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:49:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Kenneth Chan
Subject: ministry opportunity

Our church, The Chinese Church in Christ (of Mountain View, CA) has two
opening right know. Actually, both are new positions since our church
has been growing and is in need of full-time staff for these areas:

1. Youth Pastor
* we have approximately 50-60 youth (comprised of
both junior and senior high) who are in need of a full-time (willing to
consider part-time as well) youth pastor to help shepherd, organize and
minister to them. Also work with parents and volunteer counselors.
* contact Ken Chan 415-968-2900 or email

2. Children’s Director
* we have about 90 kids ranging in age from pre-k
to 5th grade. Director would organize Sunday school curriculm (for
kids), train Sunday school teachers (for kids), coordinate Vacation
Bible School as well as other special events for kids.
* contact Pastor Enoch Lau 415-968-2900

——————————

From: leungs
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 97 08:47:00 E
Subject: CAC_Mail: China Watch

For those who are interested, I’d also like to pass on the following
information about China Watch. It’s a “mailing list” hosted at XC.org

——
Circulation: 579
Published by: Eternity’s Edge (http://www.frontiermissions.org)
China briefing page: http://www.frontiermissions.org/easia/china/china.p
html
Editor: Brent Fulton, China Services Coordinating Office
Managing Editor: Justin Long, Eternity’s Edge
Confidence scales: Incorrect, Low (Rumor), Moderate, High.
Confirmed: no confirmation, 1 confirmation, multiple confirmations.
We recommend not publishing anything with less than a High confidence.
“Incorrect” indicates faulty information presently circulating which should
be refuted.
If you have an item which you think would be of interest, email it to the
editors via JustinLong@xc.org.

=-=-=
To leave this conference, send “UNSUBSCRIBE china-watch” to hub@XC.Org

___

Regards,
Stephen

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:36:48 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: FYI: Houses of Worship Project

Houses of Worship Project Creates Christmas Hymns on the Web

PITTSBURGH–(BUSINESS WIRE FEATURES)–Dec. 15, 1997–Christmas
hymns, including “O Little Town of Bethlehem” have now appeared on the
Web for anyone in the world to play and sing.

The hymns are taken from an 1886 Christian Hymnal Book and are played
strictly in industry standard MIDI form for long play. Also, the hymn
pages
were scanned in a form for reading off the PC or TV screen and also for
printing. Families in their homes and small church groups can now sing
Christmas hymns played strictly by the hymnal.

The hymn pages were created by the Houses of Worship Project,
http://www.housesofworship.net. This project, also called the HOW project, has
offered editable Web pages for all 300,000 churches in the United States
and
Canada. Since its introduction in September 1997, many thousands of
churches
have taken to editing their Web pages!

A first sponsor of this project has been the American Bible Society
with
a $5,000,000 grant, but more are being sought. According to Mike Maus,
Director of Communications for the American Bible Society, “The purpose
of
HOW is to develop a primary electronic communications backbone to serve
the
Christian churches in North America. Once we have a measure of success
in
this, we will be looking to expanding the backbone over the entire world
community of about two billion Christians and their churches.” The
American
Bible Society has served local churches in the United States and,
through its
partners, the world, for almost 200 years. “It will continue serving
churches and their needs for scripture through the next millennium,”
noted
Maus.

“Between forty and a hundred new church editors sign up a day,”
remarked
Robert Thibadeau, a faculty member in the School of Computer Science at
Carnegie Mellon University, “but we need to reach a large critical mass
in
order to provide the kinds of connections among churches and
congregations
that the Web is capable of delivering.” The hope of this group is that
a
pastor or youth member from every church in North America will take the
few
minutes needed to keep their basic church bulletin information up to
date on
the HOW pages.

On the question of whether HOW was simply a Web hosting service for
churches, Dr. Thibadeau responded, “The HOW pages should only be a
beginning
or an adjunct to a local church getting on the Web. If and when a local
church has its own Web site it can link to this from its HOW pages,
thereby
providing more access to its own Web site or, perhaps, the Web site of
its
denomination. The HOW pages are there for us to simplify the search to
find
the right church, the right church event, or to allow churches to
establish
communications among themselves.”

For questions and further information on the Houses of Worship
Project,
contact webmaster@housesofworship.net or 1-888-437-3746.

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:35:29 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: FYI: Constitutional Religious Freedom

CONGRESS MUST ACT TO RESTORE
CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE OF
RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, FRC SAYS

NATION’S TOP PRO-FAMILY GROUPS AND LEGAL EXPERTS RELEASE
STATEMENT ON RELIGIOUS FREEDOM

WASHINGTON, D.C. — “The pervasive problem of judicial
tyranny continues to stymie those who wish to exercise their
right to express their religious beliefs in the public square,”
Family Research Council President Gary Bauer said Thursday.
“Federal Judge Ira DeMent’s sweeping injunction against
religious expression in Alabama’s DeKalb County school system
is just the latest in a long series of erroneous decisions.
Earlier this year, an Alabama state judge declared that the
Ten Commandments could not be displayed in a public place.
Congress must act now to assert its rights, as a co-equal
branch of government, to protect religious expression in
Alabama and across the nation.”

In an attempt to prevent what he calls, “flagrant judicial
tyranny over religious expression,” FRC’s Bauer released a
document entitled, “A Statement on Religious Freedom and the
Right of the People to Acknowledge the Creator.” It is
signed by pro-family leaders, such as Dr. James Dobson of
Focus on the Family, Don Hodel of Christian Coalition, Chuck
Colson of Prison Fellowship, Governor Robert Casey of
Campaign for the American Family, Don Wildmon of American
Family Association, Rev. Keith Fournier of Catholic Alliance,
Dr. D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries, Dr. William
Donohue of Catholic League, Rev. Louis Sheldon of Traditional
Values Coalition, and Beverly LaHaye of Concerned Women for
America and by legal experts, including Professor Robert
George of Princeton University, Professor Gerard Bradley of
the University of Notre Dame, Professor David Smolin of
Samford University, Bernard Dobranski of Catholic University
Law School, and Pat Nolan of Justice Fellowship. The
statement’s purpose is to lay the groundwork for federal
legislation that:

“(1) erects a federalism shield to protect the authority of
state institutions, such as state courts and public schools,
to acknowledge the Creator by, for example, posting the Ten
Commandments, and (2) preserves the right of individual
citizens in these institutions and other public forums freely
to express their religious faith, so long as they refrain
from interfering with the legitimate rights of others.”

The individuals and groups assert within the statement that
decisions such as those in Alabama “assault central principles
of our tradition of ordered liberty – principles which are
rooted in belief in a Creator and Judge to whom all human
beings and governments are accountable. Such an assault
demands a measured yet firm response from the American people
and their elected representatives.” Legislative language
has not yet been finalized; however, the organizations plan
to seek Congressional sponsors early in the 1998 session.

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:56:00 -0600
Subject: CAC_Mail: shocking & depressing

Dear friends,

While I realize that you may have been getting into the holiday
celebration mode, I could not help but calling your attention to the
recent media reports and special collections on the occasion of the 60th
anniversary of the Nanking Massacre. History should not be forgotten.

Dec. 13, 1997 marks the 60th anniversary of the Nanjing Massacre by the
Japanese Imperial Army in 1937-38. After the Japanese troops entered
Nanjing, the then-Chinese capital was in a bloodbath for six to eight
weeks; it is believed that 240,000 to 350,000 Chinese, many of them
innocent civilians, were killed. There have been some media coverage
recently. Please visit these sites:

ABC News Nightline Dec. 11, 1997: The Good Nazi
Ted Koppel: “in 1937 and 38, soldiers of the Japanese army killed in the
most horrifying fashion more people in the Chinese city of Nanking than
would die in the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Without
history we have no context. Without context, we can never begin to
understand the why of what nations do.”
http://www.abcnews.com/onair/nightline/html_files/transcripts/ntl1211.ht
ml,

John Hopkins Magazine, Nov. 1997:Nightmare in Nanking
“In the days after the Japanese invasion, Chinese soldiers and civilians
were mowed down by machine guns, used in decapitation contests, and
burned alive.”
http://www.jhu.edu/~jhumag/1197web/nanking.html,

China News Digest: Nanjing Massacre Museum:
“This is an archive for the historical documents and still photography
related to the the Nanjing Massacre, and other atrocities committed by
Japanese army in China during WW II.”
http://www.cnd.org:8026/njmassacre/, and

Princeton University:The 60th Anniversary of the Nanking Massacre
“An exhibition of photographs and missionary documents of the Nanking
Massacre”
http://www.princeton.edu/~nanking/
– —————————————————————
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:23:28 -0600
Subject: CAC_Mail: shocking & depressing

Dear friends,

While I realize that you may have been getting into the holiday
celebration mode, I could not help but calling your attention to the
recent media reports and special collections on the occasion of the 60th
anniversary of the Nanking Massacre. History should not be forgotten.

Dec. 13, 1997 marks the 60th anniversary of the Nanjing Massacre by the
Japanese Imperial Army in 1937-38. After the Japanese troops entered
Nanjing, the then-Chinese capital was in a bloodbath for six to eight
weeks; it is believed that 240,000 to 350,000 Chinese, many of them
innocent civilians, were killed. There have been some media coverage
recently. Please visit these sites:

ABC News Nightline Dec. 11, 1997: The Good Nazi
Ted Koppel: “in 1937 and 38, soldiers of the Japanese army killed in the
most horrifying fashion more people in the Chinese city of Nanking than
would die in the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Without
history we have no context. Without context, we can never begin to
understand the why of what nations do.”
http://www.abcnews.com/onair/nightline/html_files/transcripts/ntl1211.ht
ml,

John Hopkins Magazine, Nov. 1997:Nightmare in Nanking
“In the days after the Japanese invasion, Chinese soldiers and civilians
were mowed down by machine guns, used in decapitation contests, and
burned alive.”
http://www.jhu.edu/~jhumag/1197web/nanking.html,

China News Digest: Nanjing Massacre Museum:
“This is an archive for the historical documents and still photography
related to the the Nanjing Massacre, and other atrocities committed by
Japanese army in China during WW II.”
http://www.cnd.org:8026/njmassacre/, and

Princeton University:The 60th Anniversary of the Nanking Massacre
“An exhibition of photographs and missionary documents of the Nanking
Massacre”
http://www.princeton.edu/~nanking/
– —————————————————————
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

——————————

From: wkmoy@juno.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:04:21 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Article: SJMerc,12/10/97 “AA Young Better Educated”

CAC: Sr pastor gave me a copy of the article I was ref. to last week . .
.
Hope it is helpful – looking forward to continuing, fruitful,
ministry-related discussions . . .
The peace of Christ thru Advent, Christmas & the New Yr, Wilbur
__________________________________________________________
SJMercury News, Washington Wed, Dec 10, 1997

ASIAN AMERICAN YOUNG FOUND BETTER-EDUCATED

Asian-Americans living in this country tend to be younger and
better educated than other Americans. They are more likely to live in
cities and less likely to be divorced, Census Bureau figures show. A
profile of the nation’s, 9,653,000 Asians and Pacific Islanders was
released by the bureau Tuesday, based on the March 1996 Current
Population Survey. The group represents about 3.7 percent of the
population.

Findings included:
– – Asians are concentrated in the West, with 55 percent living in that
part of the country, compared with 22 percent of the total population.
– – Ninety-four percent of Asian-Americans live in metropolitan areas,
compared with 80 percent of the total population.
– – The median age of Asians and Pacific Islanders is 29.8 years. The
nation’s median age is 33.9 years. Median means half of the people are
older and half younger than that age.
– – Just 3.8 percent are currently divorced, compared with 8.9 percent of
all Americans 15 and over. About the same share are currently married
and living with their spouse – 53.5 percent for Asians and 53.4 percent
overall – but more Asians have never married, 34.8 percent compared with
27.5 percent.
– – For people age 25 and over, 41.7 percent of Asians have a college
degree, compared with 23.6 percent of the general population [N870]
(End of article)

From Mercury News wire services
The number in brackets after each brief is a code that can be used to
obtain the full text of the story or news release in Mercury Center
_____________________________________________________
Other/helpful article . . . about the Bay Area:
“Bay Area’s future looks older, crowded”
– – Predictions: More jobs, bigger housing crunch, graying populace

I believe this is from the same day (12/10) SJ Mercury . . .
sketches Bay Area outlook; shows graphs for yr 2000 & 2020.
_____________________________________________________
c/oCE Intern @ Sunset Chinese Baptist Church (415)665-5550
3635 Lawton St, San Francisco, CA 94122 FAX: 665-4575
e-mail: wkmoy@juno.com office: 665-9749

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:00:03 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Cal Thomas article

Dear CACers:

The following touches upon some the issues I’ve mentioned in the
recent posts but that Cal Thomas has articulated even better than
I have.

In Him,
J. Chang
– ——————————————————————————————–
Cal Thomas — Ethicists Abandon Sacred Standard

THE birth of the McCaughey septuplets produced joy and
thanksgiving for the couple and their families. It has also produced a
debate among ”medical ethicists,” some of whom argue that Bobbi
McCaughey should have aborted (euphemistically a ”fetal reduction”) in
order to limit the risk to the babies and reduce the cost to the
taxpayers
of giving birth to so many children. One can almost hear Mr. Scrooge
advocating the death of the poor in order to reduce the surplus
population.
”Ethics” is ”the discipline dealing with what is good and
bad
and with moral duty and obligation.” This implies a standard. The
McCaugheys accepted a standard when they said that God had a plan for
their children, and they never considered killing one or more of them.
Medical ethicists abandoned such a standard when they endorsed abortion
”choice.” That Bobbi McCaughey made a choice favoring life over death
isn’t enough for them. They have other concerns.
Where the ethical line is drawn, and whether it is drawn with
indelible or disappearing ink, is relevant to what the medical profession
will be allowed to do to the rest of us in the future. As medicine costs
more, it will be necessary to consider whether life’s value can
depreciate, like a car.
In a Wall Street Journal article we learn that ”fetal
reduction” is becoming a common procedure for women who face multiple
births. We also learn that doctors who advise aborting one or more babies
because of ”danger” to the others are frequently wrong. Often the
babies
left safely to gestate are born healthy, or are assisted to health by
modern technology. We learn that some mothers selectively ”reduce” for
convenience. As one doctor notes, ”If reducing from one to zero is
acceptable in this society, then why not from two to one?” Some
ethicists
and commentators question the ”right” of women to have multiple births,
suggesting the government may wish to regulate the practice. This sounds
like China’s policy of limiting couples to one child, with forced
abortion
for those who violate the law.
What should be even more alarming is that the acceptance of
abortion has produced threats to other categories of human life, just as
former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop predicted it would. Prof. Steven
Pinker, director of the Center for Cognitive Neuroscience at the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, in an article for the Nov. 2 New
York Times Magazine, defended infanticide. Pinker suggested that the
active or passive killing of newly born babies should be treated
differently from the killing of an adult because an infant is not yet a
full-fledged person. Pinker contends that we must ”think the unthinkable
and ask if we, like many societies and like the mothers (who commit
infanticide) themselves, are not completely sure whether a neonate is a
full person.”
Responding to Pinker’s article in a ”Dear Colleague” letter,
Sen. Dan Coats, R-Ind., and Rep. Joe Pitts, R-Pa., say that Pinker
”assaults the moral standard Western civilization has built over two
millennia to protect children … we believe that when such staggering
and
misguided statements are offered in the cultural marketplace, they must
be
refuted convincingly and repeatedly.”
One category of life cannot be declassified without endangering
others. If the unborn can be aborted, then why not kill the newly born
and
the elderly if they become ”inconvenient”? If there is no God to
govern,
then why shouldn’t government or medical ethicists or public opinion be
our god?
On the eve of the 25th anniversary of Roe vs. Wade, we are
regressing to a raw, purely arbitrary utilitarianism increasingly hostile
to the notion that life is sacred and unique. The grand irony may be that
the generation imposing this philosophy on our nation may turn out to be
victims of it.
– —
Roe v. Wade: 25 Years of Life Denied
http://www.prolife..org/rvw

——————————

From: TSTseng
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:04:20 EST
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: Demographics and % Christians

Fenggang:

Here is some speculation about the statistical discrepancies. Tell me what
you think…

Chuck and others within the Chinese church scene get their numbers by
measuring membership or average worship attendance (and only Protestants).
The sociological survey, however, asks only self-identification, so far as I
know. So it may be that 32% of Chinese surveyed called themselves Christians,
but either attend non-Chinese churches or don’t go to church at all.

Why this is the case? Perhaps there’s not enough theological and ideological
diversity (or space) among our Chinese churches to “scratch where enough
Chinese itch”? Perhaps our churches and leaders are too apolitical or
politically conservative? I’ve interviewed a number of Chinese who grew up in
Chinese churches and left after college – most gave these types of responses.

BTW, in the Chinese Church Handbook published by CCCOWE and edited by Gail Law
in 1982, the estimates of percentage of North American Chinese Protestants was
4.6%, which was second or third highest compared to Chinese Protestants in
other countries where there is a significant population of Chinese.

Tim Tseng

In a message dated 12/7/97 9:41:45 AM, fyang@uh.edu wrote:

<>

– ————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com
– ————————————————————

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:27:50 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Work & Word

Hi Ted and Bill;
and all CACers who remembers Ted’s “Please expand..’social action ..as
loving God with all our strength.'”

By “social action” I would understand this to be helping mankind, such as
feeding the hungry, caring for orphans and widows, healing the sick, and
such charitable works. This would be loving mankind. I would not
understand loving mankind as the fulfilling of loving God with all my
strength. The second great commandment is to love my neighbor as myself,
but that is not the same as the greatest commandment.

Our Lord spoke of visiting Him while in prison and feeding Him while
hungry was fulfilled by doing it to one of His people. So here we can do
good to Him by doing good to His people (man). This is because His
people are representatives of Him. But this is not true of all mankind.
God’s desire for my love relation with believers are far greater and
dearer than with unbelievers. See if the Scriptural exhortations to
“social action” are not limited to God’s people.

The Psalmist asked God, “What is man that You are mindful of him?” (Psa.
8:4) He is acknowledging that man is too insignificant for God to
bother with him That God loves him is not because man is that
significant but because God of Himself choose to be gracious to man. So,
“What is man” that my love for him can in any way be the fulfilling of my
love for God and that of all my strength? How can man take the place of
God?

There is a more fundamental concept involved here. It is the concept of
being God-centered or being man-centered. If the main concern is the
needs and well-being of man; if the purpose and function of God is to
love man and care for and provide for him; if the greatest hope, the
kingdom of God is the utopia of mankind then we are man-centered, … and
God is our genie. We can shout that we are God-centered, but the truth
is we are man-centered. This is not the next best creed to being
God-centered. No! It is the deepest blackness of sin. Was this not
Satan’s temptation to Eve, that she would be like god? Man-centerness is
to put man in the place of God.

In loving God, should I use $10 million to feed thousands of staring
people or to build a magnificent monument to God? Didn’t someone used
an ointment that is worth a year’s wage and poured it over Jesus’ feet
instead of selling it and use the money to help the poor?

Concerning prayer:
What do you think about this definition? “Prayer is the expression of my
faith.”

Another thot: There is no power in prayer. Prayer is not a being that
can do things. Nor does more prayer make the “being” more powerful. The
power is God. Our prayer is to God, trusting in Him; not in prayers.

A follower of the absolutely sovereign God to Whom belongs all glory and
praise and all the strength and mind and heart and soul of my love.

Ben

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 02:27:50 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: I Tim. 3

Ray

Thanks for your posting on Nov. 28th. I appreciate the corrections. I
was not careful in some of my statements as I was focused on a particular
issue. Elders and pastors are not the same, synonymous. The elders are
the overseers of the church. It is an office of the church. The pastor
is one of the function in the church, as are evangelist and teacher and
apostle. Not all elders are pastors but I would think (rational, not
biblical) all pastors should be an elder. That is why I mentioned about
the pastor as if he was an elder. If the pastor is not an elder, then
these qualifications are not applicable to him.

What did Paul mean when he wrote, the elder must be “the husband of one
wife.” Did he have two qualifications in mind? 1) that he must be a
husband and 2) that he being a husband must have only one wife. When
Paul wrote, “keeping his children under control with all dignity,” did he
have two qualifications in mind? 1) that he must have children and 2)
that he keep them under control with all dignity? One could argue that
he had both qualifications in mind. But I do not see how it violate the
grammar nor the context to understand he has only one qualification in
mind. I am not arguing for him to SHOULD have meant that. I am saying
the interpretation allows and not only allows but also fits that
understanding.

Whether Paul, Timothy and Titus were elders or not is not critical to the
understanding of the elder’s qualification. I am not sure I would say
they were not elders based on the fact that there are no recorded claims
on their part. Silence is not always a sufficient argument.

A distinction that has helped me concerning spiritual gifts is that there
is the responsibility of a function and there is a spiritual gift of that
function. For example, there is the responsibility of evangelizing which
every Christian has and there is the gift of evangelizing which only some
Christian has. Every Christian has the responsibility to give but only
some has the gift of giving. Every Christian can speak for God but only
some have the gift of a prophet.

Did I understand your comments? Are my responses way off base?

Thanks for your input and encouragements. Keep it up and we will learn
and grow together.

Thereby growing in unity,
Ben

——————————

From: HarryWLew@aol.com
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:35:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Demographics and % Christians

Dear CACers,

I think part of the problem in gauging the number of Chinese American
Christians is that we are only looking for them in predominately Asian
American or Chinese American churches.

I suspect that many of us are attending regular American churches. This may
be true of mostly ABCs but it can be true of OBCs as well. In my middle-size
midwestern city there is a relatively small Chinese population of about three
to four thousand. There is only one Chinese church service in the area. It is
held on Sunday afternoons and usually attended by less than 30 people.

But I personally know that there are many more Chinese believers than that.
Where do they go? To predominately white churches, OBC’s as well as ABC’s.

Whenever I get invited to speak on a college or university campus, or attend
a campus ministry conference, the Asian American students who want to talk to
me because I am an Asian American almost always want to ask me at least one
of three questions. One of them concerns church. Typically the question goes
like this:

“When I go home this summer my pastor wants me to help lead the youth group.
But I really want to visit other churches. I don’t get much out of the
Chinese [you can substitute Korean or Vietnamese] language service and I
can’t relate to my OBC pastor’s preaching. I’ve been attending the
InterVarsity [you can substitute Campus Crusade, Chi Alpha, etc.] meetings on
campus, love the worship style, and am getting spiritually fed in a way I
don’t get at home. What am I going to do?”

Despite the hullabaloo about racism (greatly overexaggerated by the left),
Asian Americans are assimilating into American society much more than most of
us realize. This is not what my OBC father would have wanted to hear. Many of
us depend upon our racial group identity remaining intact for our livelihood.

If you can believe all those census statistics about Asian Americans marrying
whites–the ultimate sign of social mutual acceptance–assimilation is
happening on a grand scale. (By the way, that’s another question Asian
American students ask me: “What about interracial dating and marriage?
There’s this white guy in my InterVarsity chapter. I think he’s interested in
me and he’s really nice, but I’m scared about what my folks will say…”

I don’t know of any denomination that keeps statistics about how many Chinese
members they have. My denomination knows how many Chinese pastors and
predominately Chinese congregations it has, and how many members are in those
Chinese churches. But I doubt it has ever asked all its churches for an
ethnic breakdown of their membership. But if it did, I wouldn’t be surprised
if the Chinese members in its predominately white churches outnumber the
Chinese members in its predominately Chinese churches.

Yours in Christ,
Rev. Harry Lew

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:57:01 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: shocking & depressing

Dear Fenggang:

Thank you for the websites. Yes, the 13 Dec 37 date has been sitting on
my notice board for quite some time now. No, I can never forget, nor
should the world.

The Nightline “Good Nazi” story is interesting, on a kind of Oskar
Schindler in Chinese context. But (1) we’ve had too many “good Nazi”
stories lately, and there is something unhealthy about the phenomenon;
and more important, (2) the story diverts the real issue at hand, the
Rape itself.

How should we Christians, laypersons and pastors alike, react to such
enormity in such inexpressible dimension? Words fail me.

It is actually quite fitting that you brought up the topic during
Christmas, Fenggang. I don’t look upon Christmas as an occasion for
celebration. Christmas is, rather, the first of a two-stage
self-humiliation of God which ends with Christ’s death on the cross
(Phil 2.6-8). Christmas is an overture to a tragic act that crescendoes
in the ultimate bloody act of Good Friday.

Get rid of the maudlin Baby Jesus cult
and we see the Lord of the Universe
willfully emptying the divine self,
taking on the form of a fetus,
subjecting himself to the mortal danger of birth,
being reduced to an oh-so-common pale infant.

All this–humiliation and suffering–is but prelude to divine pains on
the cross.

Our God suffers.

Our God suffers as hundreds of thousands of Nanjing people were
slaughtered.

Our God suffers as millions more perished in concentration camps.

Have we hope? Yes, but only on Easter morning.

Then, and only then, we celebrate.

Otherwise, we have no cause to boast.

Sze-kar

——————————

From: leungs
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 09:31:00 E
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: shocking & depressing

Dear Brother Sze-kar,

I apologize, but I can’t resist a reply. I clearly understand your point
about God’s humiliation and suffering. It is indeed the most mind-boggling
aspect of the incarnation. Neither do I disagree that God suffers. I
appreciate the reminder. But, I dare say we can’t proverbially “toss out
the baby with the bathwater.” While appreciating the pain on the Giver’s
part, there is celebration on the recipients’ part. Quoting from Luke
2:10-14 (NASB):

But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good
news of great joy which will be for all the people; for today in the city of
David there has been born for you a Savior, who is [1]Christ the Lord. “This
will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in
a [2]manger.” And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the
heavenly host praising God and saying, “Glory to God in the highest, And on
earth peace among men [3]with whom He is pleased.”

[1]I.e. Messiah
[2]Or feeding trough
[3]Lit of good pleasure; or of good will

But, you are right about the true celebration taking place on Easter. I
once likened the gift of Messiah to a bond or treasury bill given by a
parent to a young child. It’s hard for the child to fully value the gift
when the paper note is first handed to him. He is told that it is a gift
and that he should be thankful. Later, at an appointed time of maturity,
the note is to be cashed. For a variety of reasons, the exchange can be
seen as a untimely loss. But, does the pay-off far exceed the child’s
appreciation of the gift when he first received it – even if he did
“understand” the face value! This is a limited illustration, but the
promise was issued in the Garden, the present arrived at Christmas, the
mind-blowing pay-off was realized at Easter.

Yes, “Get rid of the maudlin Baby Jesus cult and we see the Lord of the
Universe” in suffering and humiliation. But, there is still cause to
rejoice…

Merry, hopeful, Christmas (for all the people),
Stephen

———-
From: Sze-kar Wan
To: CAC
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: shocking & depressing
Date: Thursday, December 18, 1997 2:57AM

Dear Fenggang:

Thank you for the websites. Yes, the 13 Dec 37 date has been sitting on
my notice board for quite some time now. No, I can never forget, nor
should the world.

The Nightline “Good Nazi” story is interesting, on a kind of Oskar
Schindler in Chinese context. But (1) we’ve had too many “good Nazi”
stories lately, and there is something unhealthy about the phenomenon;
and more important, (2) the story diverts the real issue at hand, the
Rape itself.

How should we Christians, laypersons and pastors alike, react to such
enormity in such inexpressible dimension? Words fail me.

It is actually quite fitting that you brought up the topic during
Christmas, Fenggang. I don’t look upon Christmas as an occasion for
celebration. Christmas is, rather, the first of a two-stage
self-humiliation of God which ends with Christ’s death on the cross
(Phil 2.6-8). Christmas is an overture to a tragic act that crescendoes
in the ultimate bloody act of Good Friday.

Get rid of the maudlin Baby Jesus cult
and we see the Lord of the Universe
willfully emptying the divine self,
taking on the form of a fetus,
subjecting himself to the mortal danger of birth,
being reduced to an oh-so-common pale infant.

All this–humiliation and suffering–is but prelude to divine pains on
the cross.

Our God suffers.

Our God suffers as hundreds of thousands of Nanjing people were
slaughtered.

Our God suffers as millions more perished in concentration camps.

Have we hope? Yes, but only on Easter morning.

Then, and only then, we celebrate.

Otherwise, we have no cause to boast.

Sze-kar

——————————

From: drwong1@juno.com (Richard L Wong)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 22:19:23 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: Demographics and % Christians

Harry: You made some interesting observations about the Asian-American
culture. I can relate to a couple of your points based on my own
personal observations and experiences: First, I think American-born
Chinese have been leaving Chinese churches and gravitating towards
“mainstream” movements (e.g. InterVarsity, Campus Crusade, Presbyterian
Church USA, Promise Keepers etc.) because the Chinese churches and the
sermons and worship services were oriented towards their parents’
generation. Unless the Chinese churches address some of the cultural
needs of the ABCs, the Chinese churches will continue to lose members.

Second, modern Asian-American-oriented Christian movements (e.g. JEMS,
Asian-American Christian Fellowship, etc.) have growing across the
country (DC Chuang recently posted a list of those churches on this
website), and Chinese churches that have been willing to experiment with
ABC-oriented worship services have been able to retain the ABC
generation. Why? Perhaps because it provides a “comfort zone” where
American-born Chinese can be free to spend time with others who are just
like them, where they can find and worship God on their own terms, and
find their Christian identity. A lot of the ABCs I’ve met had grown up
in Chinese churches and found a certain comfort level from being around
fellow Chinese, but were looking for something that recognized their
“American” cultural heritage as well.

My vision is to have a church that can position itself to provide a haven
not just for Chinese-speaking Christians, but also for these ABCs who
have grown up in the Chinese culture, but who also need an outlet to
express their American culture as well. I would like to see a church
where a family can come to worship AS A FAMILY, with each family member
able to attend a service in their language, with worship services and
sermons recognizing each congregation’s own unique culture. I guess I
have a burden for those ABCs I’ve met who were raised in a church but who
later dropped out because church “wasn’t for them.” I don’t think church
wasn’t for them. I just think that the traditional church couldn’t adapt
fast enough to meet their needs.

Richard Wong
Arlington, VA
drwong1@juno.com
Chinese Christian Church of Greater Washington, DC

On Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:35:20 -0500 (EST) HarryWLew@aol.com writes:
>Dear CACers,
>
>I think part of the problem in gauging the number of Chinese American
>Christians is that we are only looking for them in predominately Asian
>American or Chinese American churches.
>
>I suspect that many of us are attending regular American churches.
>This may
>be true of mostly ABCs but it can be true of OBCs as well. In my
>middle-size
>midwestern city there is a relatively small Chinese population of
>about three
>to four thousand. There is only one Chinese church service in the
>area. It is
>held on Sunday afternoons and usually attended by less than 30 people.
>
>But I personally know that there are many more Chinese believers than
>that.
>Where do they go? To predominately white churches, OBC’s as well as
>ABC’s.
>
>Whenever I get invited to speak on a college or university campus, or
>attend
>a campus ministry conference, the Asian American students who want to
>talk to
>me because I am an Asian American almost always want to ask me at
>least one
>of three questions. One of them concerns church. Typically the
>question goes
>like this:
>
>”When I go home this summer my pastor wants me to help lead the youth
>group.
>But I really want to visit other churches. I don’t get much out of the
>Chinese [you can substitute Korean or Vietnamese] language service and
>I
>can’t relate to my OBC pastor’s preaching. I’ve been attending the
>InterVarsity [you can substitute Campus Crusade, Chi Alpha, etc.]
>meetings on
>campus, love the worship style, and am getting spiritually fed in a
>way I
>don’t get at home. What am I going to do?”
>
>Despite the hullabaloo about racism (greatly overexaggerated by the
>left),
>Asian Americans are assimilating into American society much more than
>most of
>us realize. This is not what my OBC father would have wanted to hear.
>Many of
>us depend upon our racial group identity remaining intact for our
>livelihood.
>
>If you can believe all those census statistics about Asian Americans
>marrying
>whites–the ultimate sign of social mutual acceptance–assimilation is
>happening on a grand scale. (By the way, that’s another question Asian
>American students ask me: “What about interracial dating and marriage?
>There’s this white guy in my InterVarsity chapter. I think he’s
>interested in
>me and he’s really nice, but I’m scared about what my folks will
>say…”
>
>I don’t know of any denomination that keeps statistics about how many
>Chinese
>members they have. My denomination knows how many Chinese pastors and
>predominately Chinese congregations it has, and how many members are
>in those
>Chinese churches. But I doubt it has ever asked all its churches for
>an
>ethnic breakdown of their membership. But if it did, I wouldn’t be
>surprised
>if the Chinese members in its predominately white churches outnumber
>the
>Chinese members in its predominately Chinese churches.
>
>Yours in Christ,
>Rev. Harry Lew
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 03:07:17 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: I Tim. 3

Ray;

I think our continual discussion on I Tim. 3 may have limited interest on
the CAC posting. Please send me your e-mail to continue this discussion.
Thanks.

The joy of the incarnation of God’s Son be abounding in your heart.

Ben_Mel@juno.com

——————————

From: leungs
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 07:52:00 E
Subject: CAC_Mail: FW: Reaching the unchurched

———-
From: jwong
Subject: Reaching the unchurched
Date: Thursday, December 18, 1997 7:41PM

Hi,

I’ve been studying the Willow Creek model for the last few years and
have had some success applying some of its principles within the
unchurched Asian American community. This is particularly so in the
area of lifestyle evangelism which requires a lot more personal
involvement and interaction.

However, the response hasn’t been as positive when it comes to
developing a contemporary worship service ala Willow Creek with an
Asian American flavor and staying within the AA context. While not
trying to duplicate Willow Creek, I did apply some of its principles
such as adding creativity and excitement to our outreach service.

Has anyone had any kind of experience with reaching unchurched Asian
Americans within a larger context such as planting a highly
contemporary and progressive type of church? I’m in the process of
starting one in Maryland and would like to dialogue with the experts.

James T. Wong

——————————

From: Tom Steers
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:02:31 -0800
Subject: CAC_Mail: CELEBRATE!!!

To all CACers,

I love your discussions, confessions, and ramblings. So here’s a gift of
love in return!!!

Celerbrating with you all that He is,

Tom Steers
Asian American Ministries
The Navigators

>> >>Hold the DOWN arrow to read this message. Keep going
>> >>until you reach the end! Enjoy!!!
>> >>
>> >God Loves You

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:46:19 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Demographics and % Christians

Tim said,
“Perhaps there’s not enough theological and ideological
diversity (or space) among our Chinese churches to “scratch where enough
Chinese itch”? Perhaps our churches and leaders are too apolitical or
politically conservative? I’ve interviewed a number of Chinese who grew
up in
Chinese churches and left after college – most gave these types of
responses.”

Tim, I tend to agree on this speculation. During my fieldwork in the DC
area I also interviewed some OBC droppouts. They still claimed to be
Christians, although they did not attend any church regularly. Some of
them were more concerned about Chinese as a minority in the U.S., and
got involved in the creation and operation of OCA (organization of
Chinese Americans), a influential civil rights advocate group for
Chinese Americans and Asian Pacific Americans. Some others deeply
involved in other ethnic associations that had closer relationships with
things in China (the Greater China, not just the mainland). I asked
some questions and came up this understanding:

Why did they drop out from that Chinese church? Because that church was
apolitical and allowed little community involvement.
Why didn’t they switch to a mainline Chinese church? Because that
church (1) had been a mostly Cantonese-speaking church and (2) had
turned to be more evangelical. The mandarin-speaking new immigrants do
not fit in culturally and theologically.
Why didn’t they join a non-Chinese mainline church? Well, for those
Chinese who have a clear Chinese-Consciousness (Chinese pride or
minority-mentality? I’m not sure), they do not feel comfortable to be
patronized or otherwise discriminated by the majority people. Some of
them were baptized in American churches, but they could not stay long in
those churches.

I’m not a theologian or minister. As a sociologist I try to understand
them (and others). As a Christian I feel pity for them. These are
people who cannot find good Christian fellowship and Christian
nurturing. They are spiritually lonely wolves if their claims of being
Christians are genuine. I guess they cannot be drawn back to an
evangelical church because of theological disparity, nor evangelical
churches can or should broaden their theological scope to include them.
Those individuals and these churches have all defined their particular
identities. Then, will those individuals create their own churches? Do
they have the commitment and resouces to form their own churches? (I’ve
been wondering about how could black churches produce so many activist
leaders and still mained the church). Or are there ministers, or church
organizations, who want to create a niche for those less conservative
Chinese Christians? I see mainline churches hopeless in this regard.
Their priority for racial integration on the congregational level
alienates these Chinese.

oops, this discussion might have gone too far to “blame” mainline
churches.

– —————————————————————
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:11:34 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: ignorant Americans

Sze-kar said,
>The Nightline “Good Nazi” story is interesting, on a kind of Oskar
>Schindler in Chinese context. But (1) we’ve had too many “good Nazi”
>stories lately, and there is something unhealthy about the phenomenon;
>and more important, (2) the story diverts the real issue at hand, the
>Rape itself.

Sze-kar, I regard ABC Nightline’s use of “Good Nazi” to tell the story
of Nanjing Massacre as appropriate. The American audience is too
ignorant of Chinese (and Asian) history, although many have learned at
least something about the badness of Nazi and the Holocaust. This
paradoxical title can draw people’s attention.

Americans, (including American-born Chinese or Asian Americans in
general?), are ignorant of Chinese and Asian history. I personally
encountered such Americans many times. One time was right after July 1,
on an airplane. A white woman in her early 60s sitting next to me asked
me: Please tell me, is it true that the English once sold Opium to
China? After seeing media coverage of Hong Kong returning back to
China, she was surprised by an article in a local newspaper in her small
city on the west coast. That article was written by a Hong Kong
immigrant, telling about the history how did Hong Kong become British
colony.

It is interesting to know that this year it was very much through an
American-born Chinese writer, Iris Chang, that caught the attention of
American media on that horrible event of Nanjing Massacre.

Do Chinese American Christians have to learn about what have happened in
the history? Will a historical amnesia help the ministry to Asian
Americans, especially when you try to build up an Asian American church?

Fenggang

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:58:48 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: FYI: “Nation in the Balance”

++++++++++++++”NATION IN THE BALANCE”+++++++++++++++++

Throughout 1997, the United States celebrated unprecedented
gains for the pro-family movement. And yet, we also felt the strain
of unbelievable assaults against morality and our Judeo-Christian
heritage. “Family News in Focus” captures this year of extremes
in a one-hour, in-depth special called “Nation in the Balance.”

You’ll hear fascinating reports on how the news shaped 1997
and what it means for you in 1998. Don’t miss this once-a-year
opportunity to gain a real understanding of how these issues affect
you and how to pull your weight for the sake of our future.

To hear “Nation in the Balance” in your city, call your local Christian
radio stations for broadcast times.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:05:32 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: ignorant Americans

Fenggang Yang wrote:
>
> Sze-kar, I regard ABC Nightline’s use of “Good Nazi” to tell the story
> of Nanjing Massacre as appropriate. The American audience is too
> ignorant of Chinese (and Asian) history, although many have learned at
> least something about the badness of Nazi and the Holocaust. This
> paradoxical title can draw people’s attention.
>
> Americans, (including American-born Chinese or Asian Americans in
> general?), are ignorant of Chinese and Asian history. I personally
> encountered such Americans many times…

Dear Fenggang:

You are quite right: Americans are so ignorant of Asian history in
general that the ABC ploy works very well indeed. Anything to get the
message out. My complaint is based on the same observation: Asian
history has to hang onto the Holocaust coat-tail to get attention. It’s
better than nothing, but I hope we can do better in the future.

In any case, thank you for bringing up the Nanjing Datusha (“Nanjing
Massacre”).

Warmly,
Sze-kar

——————————

From: HarryWLew@aol.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:33:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Demographics and % Christians

Dear Fenggang,

To think OBCs and ABCs are dropping out because Chinese American churches are
apolitical or too conservative is a gross misjudgment, but not a surprising
one to make for someone in your field of academia. Sociology departments are
replete with liberals and relativists. If you don’t believe me, survey your
department for political party affiliations.

There was an excellent article in SOCIETY (September/October 1993 issue)
entitled “Seeds of Racial Explosion” by Timur Kuran, a University of Southern
California professor on why, among other things, surveys on racial issues
usually come out more liberal than reality. He also makes an insightful
analysis of white backlash.

It is the tendency of liberals to think that everything has a political
solution. And it is not that I don’t think government has a God-given role to
play in human affairs. I have worked in many political campaigns, been a
precinct delegate, served several terms of the executive committee of my
county’s Democratic party (but vote a lot more Republican in recent years),
regularly give workshops on “Christianity and Politics” to churches and
college students, etc.

Asian Americans have traditionally not relied on government to solve their
problems, and have done a lot better than those minorities that do. And given
the sorry state of the African American underclass, the “activist” leadership
of the black community is not something we Asian Americans should want to
emulate.

Also to all of you who have responded appreciately to my posts in private
only:

I would greatly appreciate it if you respond publicly to me through this CAC
forum. If nothing else, you will let folks like Fenggang, Sze-kar, and Tim
know that the subscribers to this list are a lot more conservative than one
would think by just reading the messages alone.

I would never “out” you by forwarding your messages to the forum, but I’ve
been greatly tempted. 😉

And if I have not responded to you personally, I hope to do so when I return
from vacation and have more time. I’ll be leaving Main Street U.S.A. to visit
family in New York City and get some real Chinese food!!!

A Blessed Merry Christmas to everyone!

Yours in Christ,
Harry Lew

——————————

From: HarryWLew@aol.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:13:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: ignorant Americans

Dear Fenggang,

Thanks for reminding me the reason why my 78-year-old OBC father hates the
Japanese. To this day he refuses to buy anything made in Japan.

Yours in Christ,
Harry Lew

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 03:47:56 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: shocking & depressing

leungs wrote:
> But, you are right about the true celebration taking place on Easter. I
> once likened the gift of Messiah to a bond or treasury bill given by a
> parent to a young child. It’s hard for the child to fully value the gift
> when the paper note is first handed to him. He is told that it is a gift
> and that he should be thankful. Later, at an appointed time of maturity,
> the note is to be cashed. For a variety of reasons, the exchange can be
> seen as a untimely loss. But, does the pay-off far exceed the child’s
> appreciation of the gift when he first received it – even if he did
> “understand” the face value! This is a limited illustration, but the
> promise was issued in the Garden, the present arrived at Christmas, the
> mind-blowing pay-off was realized at Easter.
>
Dear Stephen:

Your illustration is well-taken, and it works well with a young child.
Adults (spiritually speaking, of course) need to develop it further.

A young child thrives, indeed only survives, on unconditional
receiving. It has no choice; it has nothing that could be used or
sacrificed to “earn” anything in exchange. A child is helpless in this
regard. It is also oblivious. Oblivious to the labors, efforts, pains,
sleepless nights its parents have to expend to provide for it. A child
receives without fanfare or gratitude; it simply receives. It thinks
this is the nature of things.

As the child grows older, when he or she learns that there is no free
lunch and treasury bills do not grow on trees, he or she learns,
finally, the parents have actually spent their life-saving on the
treasury bill that he or she so casually, so matter-of-factly received
before. They have sacrificed their lives for his or her well-being.
When this happens, guilt and sadness ensue, followed by a deep gratitude
never felt before.

So it is with our salvation.

A theologian, a martyr too, once distinguished between “cheap grace” and
“costly grace.” Cheap grace is when the child receives a gift in
oblivion. Costly grace is when the child finally understands that our
salvation was achieved by the Lord of Universe debasing himself into
human form and dying the death of a slave. This is the mystery of our
faith, of the incarnation. This is why the early church fought the
docetists who claimed that Christ as God could not have suffered the way
he did. This is why the early church fathers declared Gnostics
heretics, because the latter separated the body from the soul.

To the extent we belittle the sufferings of Christ, to that extent we
belittle the salvation he wrought on our behalf. And his sufferings
begin at birth.

A corollary: To know the sufferings of Christ is to know his humanity
and his solidarity with humanity. To know the sufferings of Christ is
to know the sufferings of all humanity.

In seasonal reflection,
Sze-kar

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:27:39 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: FYI: ALL: Abortion Decreasing? No, Not Really

Dear CACers:

Recently, there was new info regarding the latest statistics on
abortions in America. Here is one view about that from the
American Life League (ALL).

In Him,
J. Chang
– ————-
ALL: Abortion Decreasing? No, Not Really

STAFFORD, Va., Dec. 15 /PRNewswire/ —
Statement of American Life League President Judie Brown:

“But to use these shrinking numbers as an indication that America is
turning against abortion would be a grave error. It simply isn’t true.

“For starters, some news services reported that this decrease in
surgical
abortion may only be temporary — 1996 figures are expected to show an
increase over the 1995 numbers.

“In addition, these totals represent only the number of preborn
babies
killed by surgical abortion. Millions of other tiny boys and girls lose
their
lives every year because of the chemicals and devices the pro-death
movement
labels ‘contraceptives.’ “These so-called contraceptives — including
Norplant, Depo-Provera and even the standard birth control pill — can
either
prevent ovulation, hinder fertilization, or inhibit implantation of the
fertilized human embryo in the lining of the mother’s uterus. This third
action is not contraception. It is abortion.

“Life begins at fertilization — period! Linguistic manipulation
does not
change that fact.

“Biological revisionists will tell you that pregnancy begins only
when the
fertilized embryo implants in the uterine wall, and that an implantation-
inhibiting chemical does not cause abortion.

“They maliciously shroud the truth by claiming that fertilization
alone is
not sufficient to begin pregnancy. Abortion advocates continue to
distort the
basic biological fact that the union of a human sperm and a human egg at
fertilization results in a unique human being.

“Implantation does not occur until at least six days after
fertilization
– — six days after the new human being’s life has begun. The chemicals
that
deny this tiny person access to the uterine wall do, in fact, destroy a
human
life.

“The exact number of these tiny victims is unknown, but researchers
have
estimated that abortifacient chemicals and devices take the lives of
between 8
and 14 million preborn boys and girls each year — in addition to those
killed
by surgical abortion.

“This action of so-called ‘contraceptives’ serves as a reminder that
even
if every single surgical abortion clinic in the country were put out of
business, abortion would not end. It would just go into hiding.”

Judie Brown is president of American Life League, the nation’s
largest
pro-life educational organization with more than 300,000 supporters.
American Life League (ALL) on the Web at

——————————

From: HarryWLew@aol.com
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:02:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: ignorant Americans

Dear Ray Downen,

You wrote:

>It’s understandable, but wrong. Christians DO forgive, or they will
>not be forgiven. Terrible wrongs CAN be put behind us. They SHOULD be
>put behind us, else they get in the way of our LOVING those who
>despitefully use us. How does your father DARE claim to be a
>Christian while NOT forgiving???

My dad has never claimed to be a Christian. Your prayers for his salvation
would be appreciated.

But thanks anyway for your quick judgment.

Yours in Christ,
Harry

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:29:58 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Demographics and % Christians

Harry Lew said,
> To think OBCs and ABCs are dropping out because Chinese American
churches are
> apolitical or too conservative is a gross misjudgment, but not a
surprising
> one to make for someone in your field of academia. Sociology departments
are
> replete with liberals and relativists. If you don’t believe me, survey
your
> department for political party affiliations.

Dear Harry,
I said that I tend to agree on the speculation (again, speculation) that
one of the reasons (again, one of many reasons) of OBCs and ABCs dropping
out could be that some OBC/ABC Christians find theological disparity with
the Chinese churches accessible to them. Whether this is true or not is
not a theological judgement nor a political judgement (so I cannot see why
the labeling of “liberals/relativists” come into the discussion). It is a
speculation (or hypothesis, sociologically speaking) that can be proved or
disproved with empirical data. Without quantitative data, such as a
survey focusing on religious beliefs and practices of Chinese Americans,
no one can really deny or confirm the validity of this speculation with
certainty. However, I did encounter some cases of OBC dropouts who told
me they were still Christians and liked to be more involved in politics
and ethnic affairs. Maybe you have encountered OBC/ABC dropouts who
provided other explanations. If so, please let me know. I’m more than
eager to know other reasons which can be more significant than the
speculated reason here. For example, from the CAC discussion as well as
my own research I’ve learned that cultural disparity between more
Americanized ABCs (but not all ABCs are similarly Americanized) and little
Americanized OBCs (but not all OBCs are little Americanized) is probably
an important reason for ABC dropping out (this has to be qualified,
however, by the organizational structure of the church. If ABCs can
participate in decision-making, they may still be able to stay in the
church). Without knowing the true reasons of dropping out, it would be
hard to mend the broken net.

About the general tendency of sociologists as liberals, I think there are
empirical studies that have documented so. Similarly, empirical studies
show that the clergy (pastors) tend to be more liberal than the laity
(ordinary believers) (do you need any citation here?). Then, should I
regard every pastor as a liberal? Come on! I had never been labeled
liberal until your implicit statement. If I can be labeled a liberal, the
only explanation I can think of is that you must be a radical
fundamentalist. Empirical studies show that radical fundamentalists split
very often, because they cannot tolerate even a small or trivial
disagreement with other fundamentalists. They would label anyone who has
a different opinion as unorthodox (conservative?) or even non-Christian,
subsequently refuse to cowork or cooperate. Of course, as a sociologist
(again), I understand that there are radical fundamentalists and they will
not and probably should not give up their fundamentalistness.

Fenggang
– —
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. email: fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston phone: 713-743-3973
Houston, TX 77204 FAX: 713-743-3943

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 16:03:14 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Demographics and % Christians

Dear Harry:

I was hoping I wouldn’t be drawn into any debate, but here I am in spite
of myself.

Your response to Fenggang is so saturated with labels and generalities
that you have to help me out.

> Sociology departments are replete with liberals and relativists.
>
Does this statement have any value at all? Can it ever be falsified?
If not, it can hardly be persuasive.

> If you don’t believe me, survey your department for political party
> affiliations.
>
By “party affiliation” you presumably mean the Democratic Party, whose
memebership would prove that “sociology departments are replete with
liberals and relativists.” What does this say about YOUR Democratic
Party membership? Surely there are “conservative” Democrats and
“liberal” Republicans, no? From where I stand, frankly, I don’t see
much difference between these two parties.

> There was an excellent article in SOCIETY (September/October 1993 issue)
> entitled “Seeds of Racial Explosion” by Timur Kuran, a University of Southern
> California professor on why, among other things, surveys on racial issues
> usually come out more liberal than reality. He also makes an insightful
> analysis of white backlash.
>
Don’t know his works but would be happy to read them. By the way, Kuran
is a graduate of the Princeton and Stanford Economics departments and
currently teaches in one (USC), all “liberal and relativistic”
departments. And economics is one the social sciences.

> It is the tendency of liberals to think that everything has a political
> solution. And it is not that I don’t think government has a God-given role to
> play in human affairs. I have worked in many political campaigns, been a
> precinct delegate, served several terms of the executive committee of my
> county’s Democratic party (but vote a lot more Republican in recent years),
> regularly give workshops on “Christianity and Politics” to churches and
> college students, etc.
>
I see you have a very narrow definitioin of “politics,” which is fine.
But I hear Fenggang using a different definition of “politics.” He is
giving hard data (surveys of Mandarin-speaking Chinese Christians) on
why Chinese intellectuals find it so difficult to integrate into North
American Chinese churches. They complain (among others) that Chinese
churches care little about the social, political, and cultural
aspirations and concerns of Chinese expatriates.

This is a huge problem in the history of Christianity in China; it goes
back
to the May Fourth Movement of 1919, and probably much farther
back. I suggest we all take seriously what Fenggang and other devout
(mainland) Chinese Christian intellectuals have to say and engage in a
constructive dialogue to learn from their questions and concerns. Don’t
knee-jerk their points immediately into a big-govt pigeonhole. I
honestly think it’s an issue that will determine (from a historical
point of view) the shape of Chinese Christianity in the next 50-100
years.

> And given the sorry state of the African American underclass, the “activist”
> leadership of the black community is not something we Asian Americans should
> want to emulate.
>
I would be gravely offended by this generality about the “black
community” if I were African-American. In one broad stroke you manage
to belittle the moral stance of the likes of Martin Luther King and the
spiritual and political leadership of the likes of Eugene Rivers, just
two names off the top of my head. The AsiAm community might be better
off, for now, in social and economic terms, but I do not share your
optimism in the moral and spiritual state of our community. We have yet
to make our marks in this area.

> I would greatly appreciate it if you respond publicly to me through this CAC
> forum. If nothing else, you will let folks like Fenggang, Sze-kar, and Tim
> know that the subscribers to this list are a lot more conservative than one
> would think by just reading the messages alone.
>
I once observed that CAC was stiflingly conservative, that it was most
fearful of new ideas. Nothing and no one has yet persuaded me to the
contrary. Can’t speak for the others, but I am sold on CAC’s
conservativism–more than ever. No need to preach to the converted.

=====

In conclusion, a sincere challenge to you, Harry:

Instead of dealing in impressions, labels, opinions, and generalities,
post something systematic on (1) positions you hold as a
CHINESE-AMERICAN
CHRISTIAN on ministry and political/social involvement (I’d like to hear
about your workshops on “Christianity and politics”); and (2) more
importantly, your BIBLICAL and THEOLOGICAL reasons for holding said
positions.

I will do likewise, and let’s have an honest debate on substantial
issues between siblings.

Respectfully,
Sze-kar

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:15:43 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: ignorant Americans

ohbrudder wrote:
>
> And why my father was made an orphan . . .and adopted by a friend in
> America . . .and came over with “papers” and a name change . . .
> and why I’m now a Leong and not Chung.
>
> grateful to God and proud to be an American,
> bill leong
>
> HarryWLew@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > Dear Fenggang,
> >
> > Thanks for reminding me the reason why my 78-year-old OBC father hates the
> > Japanese. To this day he refuses to buy anything made in Japan.
> >
> > Yours in Christ,
> > Harry Lew

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:16:34 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Demographics and % Christians

ohbrudder wrote:
>
> Living in LA all my life, I can guarantee you there are not 32% . . .
> 80,000 Chinese Christians in So Cal? (32% of est. 250,000 ) Must be
> an underground church! 800 Chinese churches??? I think 200 tops.
> I would believe it among the Koreans but not Chinese.
>
> bill leong
>
> Fenggang Yang wrote:
> >
> > However, several survey studies based on scientific sampling in some
> > metropolitan areas put the number _much much much_ higher, for example,
> > up to 32% Protestants among Chinese in Los Angeles (see Los Angeles
> > Times July 5, 1997, section B page 5). Some social scientific surveys
> > in Chicago and Seattle came up similar percentages. As a sociologist
> > myself, I tend to accept the survey numbers.
> >

——————————

From: “Ray Downen”
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 20:01:21 +0000
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Demographics and % Christians

> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 16:03:14 -0500
> From: Sze-kar Wan
> To: CAC
> Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Demographics and % Christians

> >Harry wrote — Sociology departments are replete with liberals and relativists.
> >
> Sze-kar replied — Does this statement have any value at all? Can it ever be falsified?
> If not, it can hardly be persuasive.
>
An observer testifies — Harry’s right, as anyone reading the posts
to cac list over recent weeks couldn’t fail to see if they’re willing
to see truth. Informed Christians can’t uphold the platforms adopted
in recent years by the Democrat party. Devoted Christians couldn’t
possibly have voted for Clinton for president after his sorry record
in his first term. Some who frequently write to the cac list seem to
be proud to be Democrats. I think their positions make obvious what
Harry says is true. — Ray Downen in Joplin, Missouri.
from Ray Downen respectfully on this day of the Lord.
417/782-0814 2228 Porter Joplin Mission Outreach.
Mail address is P O Box 1065 Joplin MO 64802-1065.
Internet home page addr = http://www.ipa.net/~outreach

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 21:05:57 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: AABC

errata cf. Ken Fong’s message dated 12/6/97, subject titled
going beyond Chinese boundaries

Asian American Baptist Church
Richardson, Texas (just north of Dallas, in the suburbs)
Dr. Arnold Wong, senior pastor (he recently finished D.Min.)
new web site http://members.aol.com/asianambc/

AABC recently celebrated their 5th anniversary; it was started as an
English-only ministry in May 1992. Affiliated with Southern Baptist
Convention.
– —
*

——————————

discussion on Bill Lan Lee

To: cac@emwave.net

From: JWei422935
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 05:22:15 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re:Outreach Concert at Garden Grove, California

LIVE at Wintersburg Presbyterian Church at:

13711 Fairview
Garden Grove, CA 92643
Saturday, November 1, 1997
At: 7:30 PM Sharp!

Junko Nishiguchi Cheng IN Outreach CONCERT:

Good opportunity to bring your unchurched Asian friends, co-workers,
relatives, or just anybody.

For those of you who don’t know Junko, she is considered one of the top Asian-
American Christian singer/performers in America. She has traveled the globe to
many countries and has been on the top of the Christian music charts in
Hawaii. She sings in the style similar to either Twila Paris or Sandi Patti.

There will be an altar call similar to Calvary Chapel’s style. If any
questions, call Wintersburg Presbyterian at (714) 740-9400 or 9405 (Fred
Tanizaki) or John Wei at (714) 491-7080.

Let’s get those 95-97% Asian-American unchurched to know our Lord & Savior!!!

In Christ,

John Wei

——————————

From: Samuel Ling
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:00:53 -0800
Subject: CAC_Mail: Trade with China

TRADE WITH CHINA —
A PLEA FOR A REASONED APPROACH

1. SIGNIFICANCE OF ISSUE

Trade with China (with MFN status) is the very heart of
the US-China relationship put into motion by Nixon and Carter.
Without it, and we really don’t have much of a relationship.

2. OUR PRIMARY MOTIVATION

As Christians, our primary concerns are (a) the welfare of
the Church of Christ in China, (b) the ability of the Church in
China to be salt and light in mainland Chinese society, and (c)
continued opportunities for overseas Christians to be salt and
light in China.

China really needs Christians (indigenous as well as foreign) to exemplify
high moral standards in society. Christians are China’s last great
hope!

3. CHINA’S PERCEPTIONS

When Christians in the west engage in confrontational politics
concerning China, China is listening. China concludes that (a)
American Christians (or America as a nation) are subverse and
hostile to China, and worse, (b) American Christians are aiding
the Church inside mainland China to be subversive. This really
hurts the safety and welfare of the Body of Christ in China.

4. HAVE WE CONSULTED THE CHURCH IN CHINA?

The fact is, persecuted Christians in China are NOT voicing
their request that American Christians speak on their behalf
to use sanctions against China on the basis of religious persecution!!!

Christian leaders who urge the US government to use sanctions
have, by and large, NOT consulted church leaders inside China
(or among overseas Chinese church leaders) as to their real
preference.

5. WHICH AGENDA: AMERICAN OR KINGDOM AGENDA?

There is a real difference between promoting the agenda of the
Kingdom of God agenda and promoting the American agenda
(of a particular political party, and of a particular stripe within
that party).

Our primary concern is NOT the nuclear arms threat, or the trade
imbalance, although these are legitimate concerns. The problem is,
Christian leaders are misleading when they use PERSECUTION
as the alleged basis for confrontational politics, if their REAL
and PRIMARY motive is the threat to US military and economic
interests. We are confusing issues, and we are confusing our
audience.

We must not use persecution and kingdom agenda items as a cover
up to promote American economic and military agenda items,
however legitimate the latter may be.

6. EFFECTIVE MEANS TO ADDRESS PERSECUTION

Christians who are pleading for a more reasoned approach,
avoiding confrontational politics, are suggesting that there are
many other effective means to address the issue of religious
persecution. On the top of the list would be:

US government leaders should visit China (100 members of Congress
have done so since Jan. 1, 1997), and in the context of engagement
(investments, professional service and other humanitarian
service projects etc.), bring to the attention of their counterparts
in China (that is, members of the National People’s Congress in
China) the concerns of the Congressman/woman’s constituency
back home, about persecution. Members of Congress should do
this without media exposure, one-on-one, and all the while expressing
our intention to make contributions to China’s development.

Where Christians have been sentenced inside China, Christians from
overseas can write the Religious Affairs Bureau to express their views.
This is an effective means to let the Chinese government know our
concerns.

7. OUR LONG TERM GOAL

Our goal should not stop at stopping persecution. For the sake
of argument, even if the Communist Party closes up shop tomorrow,
there would still be the long term needs of nation buiding. If we
are just going to applaud an congratulate ourselvesw for the
collapse of Commnism in China, that’s one thing. But if we are
serious about being servants of Christ, and salt and light in China,
then we must keep a long term perspective.

8. NO DENIAL — ACTUAL ACTION NEEDED (AND FUNDS)

We do NOT deny that religious persecution is occuring. We do NOT
deny that China has a one-party dictatorship (which no longer believes
in Marxist-Leninist-Maoist ideology).

Christians who are advocating a reasoned approach are ACTUALLY
helping individual persecuted Christians! We are ACTUALLY seeking
help for Christians who are able to leave China, to seek Bible and
theological training to prepare for future ministry in China.

If we do confrontational politics re. China, are we ready and available
with funds to help specific individual persecuted Christians from
China? I hear precious little efforts in this regard among those leaders
who are so outspoken about what can About persecution. Perhaps they need
to be
educated and informed aCTUALLY be done
about persecuted Christians.

9. FOR THE MAJORITY — PRAY, JUST PRAY

When we pray for the persecuted church, perhaps we should JUST
pray, and not use it as a pretext to write our Congressmen/women?
And when we DO write our members of Congress, we need to
encourage them to take a positive, one-on-one/people-to-people,
encouraging posture toward China.

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 14:47:51 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Religious Freedom in China

Samuel Ling wrote:
> The fact is, persecuted Christians in China are NOT voicing
> their request that American Christians speak on their behalf
> …
> Christian leaders who urge the US government to use sanctions
> have, by and large, NOT consulted church leaders inside China
> (or among overseas Chinese church leaders)

I’m in 100% agreement with you here, Sam. K. H. Ting (whatever one
thinks of him) is right in issuing a strong statement protesting what he
calls “interventionism.” House church leaders, too, are puzzled by and
highly suspicious of, the current congregational attempt at “protecting”
them. While “persecution” or, more accurately, harassment happens (only
if we are to judge by American standards), such high-profiled actions
cannot but be perceived as either grandstanding or vestige of
expansionist ambition. It does more harm than good. This is simply not
how they do things in China.

I was in Shanghai this summer taking part in a two-week seminar on
Christianity at Fudan University, one of the leading universities in the
country. Response was extremely enthusiastic, esp. among church workers
who yearned to be better trained, bc there are som few seminaries around
the country. Some came from as far as Canton (2 days of train ride) and
Heilongjiang (3 days). There were also graduate students in religion.
I spoke on NT theology (3 hrs), while a good friend of mine spoke on OT
theology (6 hrs). Others spoke on systematic theology, Chinese church
history, etc. There were only two stipulations: (a) No foreigners be
invited (I was invited mainly bc the authorities chose to regard me
Chinese); and (b) a member of the Religious Affairs Bureau be present in
all sessions, to make sure we didn’t say anything political. I was
forewarned, and nothing I or anyone said could be interpreted as such.
In sum, other than the fact that I taught in Mandarin, it was no
different from my typical seminary class Stateside. The RAB approved
the list of invitees, but they also gave the OK that released the
money–no different from any western venture. All that would’ve been
cancelled (and almost was!) if the US-China relationship had
deteriorated further.

Think about it: can you imagine having a Christianity seminar/Christian
education class, funded by the federal govt, at, say, Stanford? Not
likely. Maybe there is religious persecution in this country! Maybe we
should mobilize the Chinese people’s congress, the PLA, or whatever to
speak out against intolerance of Christianity in American higher
education! If we think this is absurd, we are in a better position to
understand the Chinese Christians.

A Chinese friend of mine, selfconsciously conservative theologically,
said that the likes of James Dobson and FRC simply don’t know the
situation in China. He is right. These folk have not taken the time to
understand China or consult with Christian leaders in China and in the
diaspora (see Sam’s point above). Their self-importance and
self-appointed paternalism bespeak at best arrogance, at worst racism.
Their confrontational tactic will only make life more miserable for the
Chinese Christians. The problem of religious freedom in China is one we
Chinese Christians, wherever we live, must deal with ourselves.

Respectfully,
Sze-kar

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 14:02:57 -0600
Subject: CAC_Mail: the religious situation in China

For those who are concerned about the religious situation in China, I
have two articles discussing it, one in Chinese one in English. The
English article put the topic in the framework of civil society in
China, entitled “Civil Society and the Role of Christianity in China: A
Preliminary Reflection.” The Chinese article is more direct without
theoretical jargons, entitled “1997: Christianity in China.” These
articles are written from the perspective of a Chinese Christian who
happens to be a sociologist, and based on my visit to China this past
summer and other sources. Anyone who is interested in reading them,
please email me off the list.

Fenggang
—————————————————————
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 16:46:36 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: the religious situation in China

Dear Fenggang:

I’d like both articles Are they e-mailable? If not, I’d be happy to
reimburse you re costs. Thanks.

Thank you, too, for your always insightful postings on CAC.

Sze-kar

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 16:24:34 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: the religious situation in China

Hi, everyone, to give you some ideas about the content of my papers,
here is the “introduction” of the English paper. The Chinese paper has
no theoretical discussion.

_Civil Society and the Role of Christianity in China: A Preliminary
Reflection_

Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. October, 1997

This paper begins with a review of theoretical perspectives of civil
society in China because these confrontational models seem to block our
vision for a constructive future. I suggest an alternative model that
distinguishes three sectors of society: the state, the for-profit
sector, and the not-for-profit sector. The third sector is composed of
moral and intellectual associations that have irreplaceable functions in
the process of social and economic reforms. Religious communities are
important components of the third sector. After this theoretical
discussion, I will analytically describe three religious policies of the
central government; three relationships between local governments and
churches; and three concurrent forces of Christianity in today’s China.
This analysis is to argue that there are spaces of religious freedom
and, more importantly, there is the need for Christianity to contribute
to the spiritual and moral construction of the Chinese society in its
grand transition to market economy and democratic politics. This is a
preliminary reflection because I have not collected systematic data for
the description and analysis. Anecdotal accounts will be used for
illustration.

——————————

From: “Peter Szto”
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:48:12 EST5EDT
Subject: CAC_Mail: non-Chinese Christians on China

Dear friends,
The institution I am affiliated with is “thinking” about developing a
program in China. The idea is to have a semester in China. Historically, the institution, which
self-identifies as Christian, has been governed by “whites”, although
it likes to believe that it is becoming more multi-cultural. My
concern for discussion among Chinese Christians is that in re-attempting to go to China, is a Western
Christian institution prey to the perception, on the part of China, that Christianity is
a “white man’s religion”? A question for discussion is what are the
advantages or disadvantages of a Christian institution sending forth
leaders to China who are white or ethnic-Chinese? Would a white
program leader reinforce an image of paternalism?

Peter

——————————

From: SKYLeung@aol.com
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:33:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CAC_Mail: Trade with China

Brother Samuel,

I do have a few impulsive responses (perhaps not fully reasoned and
researched) to your wise and truthful plea for a reasoned approach. But let
me preface that by saying that your advice regarding MFN was the best that i
and many of my friends saw during the most recent debate concerning the
renewing of MFN. We forwarded your advice far and wide. Thus, my gut
feelings here are not given so much to question your understanding of the
situation as to express the visceral that often rails against the cerebral
within us.

>1. SIGNIFICANCE OF ISSUE
>
>Trade with China (with MFN status) is the very heart of
>the US-China relationship put into motion by Nixon and Carter.
>Without it, and we really don’t have much of a relationship.

MFN is too blunt an instrument to wield as an instrument of diplomatic
negotiation. This is not to say that strategic aspects of trade can not be
negotiated. I agree with the quote: “when goods don’t cross borders, armies
will (more likely).” We just don’t have to do it as if “eight bells and
all’s well.”

>2. OUR PRIMARY MOTIVATION
>
>As Christians, our primary concerns are (a) the welfare of
>the Church of Christ in China, (b) the ability of the Church in
>China to be salt and light in mainland Chinese society, and (c)
>continued opportunities for overseas Christians to be salt and
>light in China.

Agreed that these are our primary concerns. But, as Christians in the West
with a Freedom of Expression to exercise and the obligation to speak against
injustice, silence is not always our call. In fact, as long as we are not
jeopardizing our fellow Christians in China and the advancement of the
Kingdom of God, it is “constructive” to let the leadership in China know that
there is “peaceful disention” in the US. We are not monolithic nor
monocular.

>China really needs Christians (indigenous as well as foreign) to exemplify
>high moral standards in society. Christians are China’s last great
>hope!

Part of our “americanized” understanding of morals is the need to speak truth
even if it causes embarrasment. Now as an ABC in a Chinese church, I’m fully
aware of the hazards of “making” others lose “face.” While my moral
obligation means speaking out, I’ll strive to remember the Golden Rule, the
fruit of the Spirit, the need to “speak truth in love,” and my own fallen
state. At an international level, it’s obviously more difficult to do this
and to do it so that the other party can perceive my “attitude” and
“intention.”

>3. CHINA’S PERCEPTIONS
>
>When Christians in the west engage in confrontational politics
>concerning China, China is listening. China concludes that (a)
>American Christians (or America as a nation) are subverse and
>hostile to China, and worse, (b) American Christians are aiding
>the Church inside mainland China to be subversive. This really
>hurts the safety and welfare of the Body of Christ in China.

Ah perceptions. That’s were the risk always lies in communications.
Politics, foreign affairs, international marketing, and most all the soft
sciences “deal” in the arena of perceptions. Oft times we Christians haven’t
done our homework in this arena. Confrontation certainly can backfire.
However, what would a complete void of confrontation or protest communicate?
Would our brothers and sisters in China begin to think that comfy western
Christians had lost their nerve or their concern? A perception that we’re
content with being fat, dumb, and happy wouldn’t be too encouraging either.
And, for the Chinese Government, would they think that Christians in the US
are really indistinguishable from their Government – one and the same – when
we’re really not. Hey, they should know that Christians in the US can be
just as much of a headache to the Government in this country as theirs – even
more so. Our leaders should get no free lunch from their Christian
constituents – even if we do pray for them and submit to them as the Bible
commands us to do.

>4. HAVE WE CONSULTED THE CHURCH IN CHINA?
>
>The fact is, persecuted Christians in China are NOT voicing
>their request that American Christians speak on their behalf
>to use sanctions against China on the basis of religious persecution!!!
>
>Christian leaders who urge the US government to use sanctions
>have, by and large, NOT consulted church leaders inside China
>(or among overseas Chinese church leaders) as to their real
>preference.
>
Acknowledged, and this is an evident shortcoming in the actions and
activities of Christians in the US. But, let me ask the question (out of
real ignorance) have they requested American Christians to NOT speak on their
behalf. If they have so asked, I guess the brotherly (and sisterly) thing to
do is to shut up and know that He is God!=)

>5. WHICH AGENDA: AMERICAN OR KINGDOM AGENDA?
>
>There is a real difference between promoting the agenda of the
>Kingdom of God agenda and promoting the American agenda
>(of a particular political party, and of a particular stripe within
>that party).

Agreed. We must first individually know the difference (as it applies to
ourselves and our actions)…
>
>Our primary concern is NOT the nuclear arms threat, or the trade
>imbalance, although these are legitimate concerns. The problem is,
>Christian leaders are misleading when they use PERSECUTION
>as the alleged basis for confrontational politics, if their REAL
>and PRIMARY motive is the threat to US military and economic
>interests. We are confusing issues, and we are confusing our
>audience.

This statement troubles me in that it implies that we know for sure that
Christian leaders are thus in cahoots with those who concern themselves with
military and economic affairs in making nuclear proliferation and trade
imbalance (or piracy of intellectual property and human rights) the primary
motives instead of presecution of Christians and the abridgement of religious
liberties.

>We must not use persecution and kingdom agenda items as a cover
>up to promote American economic and military agenda items,
>however legitimate the latter may be.

But, if we are NOT using them as false cover, then must Christians remain
silent so as not to offend?

>6. EFFECTIVE MEANS TO ADDRESS PERSECUTION

>Christians who are pleading for a more reasoned approach,
>avoiding confrontational politics, are suggesting that there are
>many other effective means to address the issue of religious
>persecution. On the top of the list would be:

>US government leaders should visit China (100 members of Congress
>have done so since Jan. 1, 1997), and in the context of engagement
>(investments, professional service and other humanitarian
>service projects etc.), bring to the attention of their counterparts
>in China (that is, members of the National People’s Congress in
>China) the concerns of the Congressman/woman’s constituency
>back home, about persecution. Members of Congress should do
>this without media exposure, one-on-one, and all the while expressing
>our intention to make contributions to China’s development.

>Where Christians have been sentenced inside China, Christians from
>overseas can write the Religious Affairs Bureau to express their views.
>This is an effective means to let the Chinese government know our
>concerns.

These all are wise and practical. I myself may write my congressman
suggesting such action. However, what will the voice of the senator or
representative from VA (or KY for that matter) mean, unless members of the
National People’s Congress know that this US official’s constituency does in
fact feel this way or that way, and he or she isn’t just making up a story to
express his or her own opinion on a matter? My point: there is a place for
Christians to publicly protest and “generate” media exposure (over here and
not on the congressman’s efforts over there). And, i think that folks like
the Governor of Washington State (What’s his name Brother Garrick?) and
various politicos from CA and HI would probably be better recognized than my
local congressman. Perhaps they would be key for such assignments of “gentle
persuasion.” Please don’t just leave it up to the CEO’s of some giant
corporation – he or she probably won’t give a hoot about Joe Christian’s
concern.

>7. OUR LONG TERM GOAL
>
>Our goal should not stop at stopping persecution. For the sake
>of argument, even if the Communist Party closes up shop tomorrow,
>there would still be the long term needs of nation buiding. If we
>are just going to applaud an congratulate ourselvesw for the
>collapse of Commnism in China, that’s one thing. But if we are
>serious about being servants of Christ, and salt and light in China,
>then we must keep a long term perspective.

Amen.

>8. NO DENIAL — ACTUAL ACTION NEEDED (AND FUNDS)
>
>We do NOT deny that religious persecution is occuring. We do NOT
>deny that China has a one-party dictatorship (which no longer believes
>in Marxist-Leninist-Maoist ideology).
>
>Christians who are advocating a reasoned approach are ACTUALLY
>helping individual persecuted Christians! We are ACTUALLY seeking
>help for Christians who are able to leave China, to seek Bible and
>theological training to prepare for future ministry in China.

>If we do confrontational politics re. China, are we ready and available
>with funds to help specific individual persecuted Christians from
>China? I hear precious little efforts in this regard among those leaders
>who are so outspoken about what can About persecution. Perhaps they need
>to be
>educated and informed aCTUALLY be done
>about persecuted Christians.

Probably a true indictment. So let us press on. And, may we spread the word
on ways that we can “engage” in this way. I believe such postings should be
welcomed in a listing such as the CAC.

>9. FOR THE MAJORITY — PRAY, JUST PRAY
>
>When we pray for the persecuted church, perhaps we should JUST
>pray, and not use it as a pretext to write our Congressmen/women?
>And when we DO write our members of Congress, we need to
>encourage them to take a positive, one-on-one/people-to-people,
>encouraging posture toward China.
>
This too, i’m afraid we do not do enough. Yes, let us pray. And, i hope
that the post sent a few weeks ago by Brother Louis about Nov. 16th will not
go unheeded. What an opportunity for many to simultaneously beseech the
Father for His sovereign protection and deliverance of His children, our
fellow heirs of the Kingdom, from their persecutors! Our help comes from no
other.

Respectfully (despite my ABC brashness),
Stephen Leung

>From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole
earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where
they should live. – Acts 17:26 (NIV)

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:30:00 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: About CAC

FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions about CAC

Updated: 2 Nov 97

[This is a monthly posting; * marks What’s New]

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– —
*

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 16:43:43 -0800
Subject: CAC_Mail: Dobson

>A Chinese friend of mine, selfconsciously conservative theologically,
> said that the likes of James Dobson and FRC simply don’t know the
> situation in China. He is right. These folk have not taken the time to
> understand China or consult with Christian leaders in China and in the
> diaspora (see Sam’s point above). Their self-importance and
> self-appointed paternalism bespeak at best arrogance, at worst racism.

Sze-kar,

I just happened to be visiting my daughter in Colorado Springs a couple
of weeks ago. She lives down the street from Focus on the Family
headquarters, home of James Dobson’s ministries. Focus/Family is the
second biggest tourist attraction in Colorado Springs next to the
Air Force Academy.

We visited the beautiful Focus on the Family facilities which are
totally
debt free. The city had lured this ministry from California with an
offer
of $4,000,000 plus the free land . . .I don’t know how many acres, but
more than 10 acres. The ministries involve over a 1000 volunteers,
150 on the phones, receives 8,000 pieces of mail every day, hundreds
of counselors responding to the mail and with each prayer request being
prayed for individually by someone. I wish I paid better attention to
all the incredible stats of this enormous ministry so I can relay them
to you. James Dobson receives no salary from Focus but is a major
contributor.

The countless multitudes James Dobson has helped and led to the Lord,
directly and indirectly would object to your characterization of him.
I’m not a fan of Focus nor do I know Dobson personally, but he is a
fellow believer and minister in the Lord. And I object to your unkind
characterization of my brother.

Another James once said, “Show me your faith without deeds, and I will
show you my faith by what I do.”

respectfully,

bill leong

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 22:48:44 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: Dobson

Dear Bill:

There is so much I could say about your description of the FRC HQ, but I
won’t.

My point has to do with to what extent they are informed about the
situation in China to be helpful to the church there. My conclusion,
from what I know, albeit secondhand, is that they don’t. Others on CAC
have dealt with them firsthand re the church in China–with
disappointing results. They can speak for themselves. Until FRC can
show a willingness to learn from Chinese Christian leaders, I will
continue to regard them as I would a typical 19th-cent Am. missionary
organization–zealous for the gospel but blind to their own provincial,
white self-righteousness.

This does not make them any more or less sinful than anyone else, hence
no better or worse than my other brothers and sisters. I just think
they are doing more harm than good with regard to the church in China.

Respectfully,
Sze-kar

——————————

From: HarryWLew@aol.com
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:03:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Dobson

Dear Bill,

Thanks for your letter. Unfortunately it is all too common and even
fashionable in some circles to call folks we disagree with, “racist”.

Yours in Christ,
Harry Lew

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:51:41 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: new way to read CAC

The digest version of CAC is now available!

There are two steps to convert over from the normal CAC subscription to the
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CAC-Digest.

This can be done in one quick email, by sending an email message to
“majordomo@emwave.net” and in the message body, write:

unsubscribe cac
subscribe cac-digest
end

* What is a digest version?
A digest version will compile all CAC postings in one big email message that
is sent to you about once a week, whenever the collected postings reach 50k in
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Some people prefer this format because mailings are less frequent, and
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* visit the CAC web site http://www.aamdomain.com/cac/

DJ Chuang, CAC list manager

– —
*

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:15:00 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Religious Freedom in China

On Sat, 01 Nov 1997 14:47:51 -0500 Sze-kar Wan
writes:
>… While “persecution” or, more accurately, harassment happens
>(only if we are to judge by American standards),
>…
>Their confrontational tactic will only make life more miserable for the
Chinese >Christians…

Dear CAC,

I draw attention to two of Sze-kar’s ideas, above, ‘harassment’ and ‘more
miserable’, in context, to try to help clarify what is ACTUALLY happening
to Chinese Christians in China. What is the situation for them? Please
supply some trustworthy details and examples to refine our (probably
mostly ‘my’, but maybe not just ‘my’) perception of their circumstances.

Thank you.

Bro. G

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:19:28 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Religious Freedom in China

On Sat, 01 Nov 1997 14:47:51 -0500 Sze-kar Wan
writes:
>… While “persecution” or, more accurately, harassment happens
>(only if we are to judge by American standards),
>…
>Their confrontational tactic will only make life more miserable for the
Chinese >Christians…

Dear CAC,

I draw attention to two of Sze-kar’s (well spoken) ideas, above,
‘harassment’ and ‘more miserable’, in context, to try to help (me)
clarify what is ACTUALLY happening to Chinese Christians in China. What
is the situation for them? Please supply some trustworthy details and
examples to refine (probably mostly ‘my’, but maybe not just ‘my’)
perception of their daily circumstances with respect to walking with the
Lord.

Thank you.

Bro. G

——————————

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:32:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: Dobson

Dear Harry:

To the extent that you are describing extremists, I agree with you. But I’d
be curious to know at what point do you call a situation, attitude, etc.
“racist” – i.e., what is your measuring rod? Does racism exist? How do you
define “racism”?

After all, this is the first time Sze-Kar ever used the term “racist.” And
so far as I understand it, he is referring to the attitudes of missionaries
of the past (which were indeed “Euro-American centric,” if not racist) and
warning about how dangerously close contemporary American Christians can
replicate those attitudes if they are not informed.

While one extreme will label every disagreeable action taken by a person of a
different race to be “racist,” the other extreme is to attempt to silence or
censor others from even using the term.

Respectfully yours in Christ,
Tim Tseng

In a message dated 11/3/97 12:11:33 AM, HarryWLew@aol.com wrote:

<>

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 00:48:46 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Religious Freedom in China

Dear Gary:

Others should jump in here; I am wearing out the CAC welcome mat.

I encourage you to read the case studies in Hunter & Chan, Protestantism
in Contemporary China (Cambridge UP, 1993), and the revised edition of
Tony Lambert, Resurrection of the Chinese Church (1995?), for case
studies.

Fenggang’s article on civil society in China, which you also got a copy
of, talks about the role local government plays in church affairs. The
central government may make all the policies, but it is the local
officials who will persecute, harass, tolerate, help, or encourage the
local churches as they please. There are well-documented cases of HK
organizations financing building projects of churches and lay-training
centers with warm approval, even encouragement, by the local mayor–for
a variety of reasons, one of which is that Christians make good citizens
and help lower crime rate, which in turn makes him look good! All this,
in spite of supposed communist hostility to Christianity. This
decentralization has gone on for centuries, if not for dynasties. It’s
nothing new.

My point is simply that, outside pressure, perceived or real, for
“religious freedom” would only tighten the central government’s reins on
local governments, to make them conform to the letter of the law. And
that can’t be good for Christians inside China.

This is not to say protest does not have a place in our engagement with
China. But to have the US congress passing resolutions or to use the
US-China relation as leverage for change is to hit China at its sorest
spot, namely the century and a half of humiliation at the hands of
western powers. If that’s how “freedom” is presented, China will never
listen–not now, not after June 30, not when the last colonialist has
just been chased off her map. (Sorry, Macau doesn’t count!) Of course,
the British weren’t “chased” off, but we are talking about
self-perception here. That’s why the Chinese absolutely insisted on
sending in the troops 3 hrs after midnight in driving rain. Again,
self-perception.

Rather, I would support Sam Ling’s call for wise engagement, all the
while helping to strengthen the churches in China in whatever way we
can–with our financial resources, our earnest prayers, with our
trainings, above all with humility. After what the Chinese brothers and
sisters have gone through in the last four decades, I can only stand as
mute naif in midst of their suffering-borne eloquence.

En Christo,
Sze-kar

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 16:47:10 EST
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Religious Freedom in China/’perceptions’

On Tue, 04 Nov 1997 00:48:46 -0500 Sze-kar Wan
writes:
>Dear Gary:
>
>Others should jump in here…
>
>I [encourage you..a] mute naif in midst of..suffering-borne eloquence.

Yes, you do encourage me; in recent times and in ancient ways; and I’ve
never even met you, Brother!

Sze-kar, you know, and I remind you, that Luther’s great work with
Galatians was ‘borne’ out of a variety of ‘suffering’ including that
inflicted by fierce critics. Some of his choicest words (therein) were
directed against, for example, the Anabaptist ‘extremists’ who appeared
to him more Christian than Christ. IMO, you are really blessed to be at
least 1500 miles away from a modern version of Luther’s extreme-est
critics, headquartered here in Colorado Springs. Nevertheless, my mat is
out; I offer you asylum if you ever need it, but would confirm, too,
that the closer you would get to Colorado Springs,~65 miles S. of here,
the closer you would get to a source of real despair…maybe like that of
Luther approaching Rome.

==========

And, in an editorial aside, this type of despair is the feeling I felt at
the CACI annual meeting last Friday. I do have notes and observations
about that and the substance of C.E. McVaney’s (CEO of JD Edwards) ‘key
note address’. Here’s an example of my take on it for you and CAC in he
wake of Bro. Harry’s latest email to Bro. Bill:

We know that JD Edwards hires, in partic, astute Asian software
developers to work in his~$500 million/yr. corporate empire. They work
hard for him here in Colo. and in other places like the Silicon Valley.

And, I know now, too, that McVaney’s concept of ‘corporate culture’ is
the social arena in which these Asian (and their friends) work. It is
easy to recognize both from what he said and from having been exposed to
Evangelical operations like _Focus on the Family_ that a Dobson brand of
Evangelicalism, i.e. Tenet 1 = ‘Honor God’ (page 1 of McVaney’s
‘Corporate Culture’ Handbook) is basic to ‘corporate culture’.

But very troubling are the conflicting concerns emerging from this
knowledge:

#1 is that among the corporate leaders in attendance at the CACI (Colo.
State Chamber of Commerce) Annual Meetings were (virtually) zero Asians,
Blacks, Hispanics, and minorities (except for the table waiters and
bus-boys:) Elite distinguished guests from Colorado were present to speak
to approx 500 WHITES (inc me, not in a silk suit, but in Dockers and a
cotton shirt).

#2 is that a significant number of business-people there were Dobson-ite
type Christians. In fact, I was witnessed to by one who works directly
for CACI, who [speaks] not of the ‘wondrous works’ of Jesus, but of
Dobson and JD Edwards!!!
(I.e. apparently possessing NO concept of the impliktions of Gal.3:28)

I admit I probably did not look ‘saved’, Sze-kar– Praise God:) — in
violation of the tenet re: ‘business dress’ (JD Edwards, page 17)…but I
was polite, listened mostly (an admirable, hopefu;;y developing character
feature partly attributable to my recent associations with CAC:)

Anyway, To me this experience (alone) suggests that what people are
dealing with now in CAC, i.e. what is coming out of Colo. Springs, is
(not different than) ‘corporate culture’, which is both ‘racist’ and
‘paternalistic’.

I guess that a fair question, then, to Harry and Bill (or to whoever
wants it) would be this:

Being fact, esp here in Colorado, that business-minded Dobson-ites
exhibit both ‘racism’ and ‘paternalism’, How and why would Dobson-ites
act any differently in China or differ in their dealings with the Chinese
(anywhere)?

==========

Sze-kar, If Luther came among us today, to lead, I doubt he’d be as
polite as you and St. Tim are. If you want a humorous (but deadly) lift
to your spirits then re-read some of Bro. Luther’s work on Galatians or
his Intro to the Sermon on the Mount. Meanwhile, I’ll be tracking down
the references you suggested and getting into Dr. Fenggang’s mind, too.
(Let’s hope he has some Excedrin 🙂 And awaiting the words of those who
hear the cries of people for God in the throes of history and culture.

Shalom, remain in peace,

Gary

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:21:42 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Corporate Culture

Gary and Sze-Kar,

Perhaps you could help us to understand what it is that you’re saying when
you use emotionally charged terms like “racist” and “paternalistic” in
describing corporations and ministries. To use such terms on entities that
are making great contributions in the economic arena and the salvific arenas
can be very confusing and disturbing to other CACers.

May I ask, similarly, what do you find intrinsically evil or bad about
capitalism as a viable form of economics? Do you imply a preference for
socialism or Marxism? (and does that imply that the Gospel prefers
socialism?)

DJ

On 4 Nov 97 at 16:47, gdot@juno.com wrote:

> Anyway, To me this experience (alone) suggests that what people are
> dealing with now in CAC, i.e. what is coming out of Colo. Springs, is
> (not different than) ‘corporate culture’, which is both ‘racist’ and
> ‘paternalistic’.
– —
*

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 23:27:08 -0600
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: Christian leaders and China

A news report mentioned that President Jiang Zemin met Billy Graham in Los
Angeles after meeting corporate executives. However, this piece of news
carries no details and no big news agencies seem interested in the meeting
and the conversation between Jiang and Graham. Does anyone have any
information about this meeting? Did Billy Graham said the same things as
other conservative Christian leaders and congressional leaders do?

Fenggang
– —
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. email: fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston phone: 713-743-3973
Houston, TX 77204 FAX: 713-743-3943

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 01:26:49 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Corporate Culture

DJ Chuang wrote:
> Perhaps you could help us to understand what it is that you’re saying when
> you use emotionally charged terms like “racist” and “paternalistic” in
> describing corporations and ministries….

Dear DJ and other CACers:

Yes, these ARE emotionally charged words. So emotional, in fact, that I
rarely use them. I must confess, the strong reactions they provoked
these past few days have caught me by surprise and almost made me regret
using them.

But only almost.

First all, please do understand that my criticisms of these various
organizations were NEVER aimed at any CACer, not even indirectly. I
don’t believe in ad hominem attacks, and they have no place in CAC. If
I slip up in any way (which I do often), I ask for your forgiveness.

Secondly, I don’t think I actually called these organizations “racist”
per se. My exact words were: “These folk have not taken the time to
understand China or consult with Christian leaders in China and in the
diaspora…. Their self-importance and self-appointed paternalism
bespeak at best arrogance, at worst racism.” I criticized their action
(or nonaction in this case), not their character–an important
distinction. Their not having taken the time to learn about the very
people they purport to protect is a form of paternalism. (I know what’s
best for you whether you know it nor not!) And their willful disregard
of appeals by Chinese-American Christian leaders in the matter of
religious freedom in China certainly reflects arrogance and comes close
to racism. I never intended these emotion-laden terms to be
indiscriminant, blanket indictments of all ministries of FRC and James
Dobson.

But why does disregard point to racism? I find no better exegesis of my
complex feelings than the classic words of Ralph Ellison:

“I am an invisible man. No, I am not a spook like those who haunted
Edgar Allan Poe; no am I one of your Hollywood-movie ectoplasms. I am a
man of substance, of flesh and bone, fiber and liquids–and I might even
be said to possess a mind. I am invisible, understand, simply because
people refuse to see me. Like the bodiless heads you see sometimes in
circus sideshows, it is as though I have been surrounded by mirrors of
hard, distorting glass. When they approach me they see only my
surroundings, themselves, or figments of their imagination–indeed,
everything and anything except me.

“Nor is my invisibility exactly a matter of biochemical accident to my
epidermis. That invisibility to which I refer occurs because of a
peculiar disposition of the eyes of those with whom I come in contact.
A matter of the construction of their inner eyes, those eyes with which
they look through their physical eyes upon reality. I am not
complaining, nor am I protesting either. It is sometimes advantageous
to be unseen, although it is most often rather wearing on the nerves.
Then too, you’re constantly being bumped against by those of poor
vision. Or again, you often doubt if you really exist. You wonder
whether you aren’t simply a phantom in other people’s minds. Say, a
figure in a nightmare which the sleeper tries with all his strength to
destroy. It’s when you feel like this that, out of resentment, you
begin to bump people back. And, let me confess, you feel that way most
of the time. You ache with the need to convince yourself that you do
exist in the real world, that you’re a part of all the sound and
anguish, and you strike out with your fists, you curse and you swear to
make them recognize you. And, alas, it’s seldom successful” (_Invisible
Man_, “Prologue”).

Said (_Orientialism_) makes a similar point.

What galls me about these groups–as regards China–is that they act as
if Chinese Christians didn’t exist and they were the only experts in
this matter. They remind me of 19th-cent missionary organizations that
arrogated to themselves the only true torch to the heathen world.
Zealous to be sure, but seriously wanting in self-criticism.

Which brings up the question of ulterior motive. I suspect a partisan
one, which is actually legitimate in my Realpolitik book. But if so, I
wish they wouldn’t use the China cause as fodder for their ideological
cannons.

Respectfully,
Sze-kar

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 01:11:09 -0800
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: the WORK and WORD of God]

Hi Ted,

I find your questions of more interest than current topics on the
table. . . I hope that doesn’t mean I automatically disparage
the other CAC discussions on culture, women, China.

The extent of my interest in Asian American culture right now
doesn’t get much past Michelle Kwan’s ice skating. My prime
concern about China and Asian countries is their effect on my
stock portfolio. I hope I don’t appear condescending, smug, or
arrogant toward others who are concern about those issues.
Well, to tell you the truth, I don’t care much any more since
even when I do tread lightly, I’ll get the neg press. I’ve
managed to step on some toes with my past 10 cent posts just
by breathing; good thing I don’t let it all hang out with my
radical takes. . . which I don’t consider radical except in
relation to those currently posting in CAC.

Since I don’t have that much time to write, I’ll just spread what
I want to say over a few posts. It is not like I am required to
say anything but sometimes I feel compeled by some audacious
statements or by the utter boredom of irrelevance I’ve read. So
I might as well contribute my brand of audacity and irrelevance!

The RELATIONSHIP is what it’s all about.
I previously stated what I perceive are the primary ways
believers relate to God: “personally” and thru “the Word”.
And I think your labels of “experiential” and “intellectual”
were apt but didn’t quite go the distance of what I had in mind.
It’s my fault. So to clarify, let me illustrate with relationships
you and I might have, with:
a close intimate FRIEND who wrote a love letter
or a KING who issued an edict.

There are others I could use to describe our relationship to God
such as our relating to
God as Abba Father or God as the Universal Landlord, and
to Jesus as the active Spirit dwelling and interacting,
and acting in us or as the thunderous voice from the mountain.

I think Christians who relate to God as the King who issued an
“Edict” might study and analyze the “Edict” for instructions
and clues as to how to relate and behave righteously toward
God—trying to figure out God from afar. I also think they
tend to be legalistic and dogmatic. And in my experience,
they have problems with believers who relate to God more
subjectively. They have problems with emotions and
testimonies of personal experiences attributed to God,
manifestations of spiritual gifts attributed to the Holy
Spirit, healings and miracles, God speaking today, etc.
I think a severe case even espouses the King James
Version as the only true version.

Ok, ’nuff said for now,

bill leong

RevCow@aol.com wrote:
>
> ************ THE ISSUES
> This leads me to my Real Questions:
> 1. How does a believer determine when God’s Work interprets God’s Word?
> 2. Are pastors to preach/teach this?
> 3. How can we safeguard ourselves from subjectively re-interpreting
> God’s Word?
> 4. For Chinese/Asian American churches, which seems to you to be
> the greater abuse: experiential-ism or intellectualism?
> 5. What organizations have been successful in discipling believers
> to be mature both in their personal relationship with God AND
> in their study of His Word? I’d really like to know about this
> one, because I’d like to learn. Remember mentorship (9/29)?
> If you’re too modest, please e-mail me personally.

——————————

From: Samuel Ling
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 03:53:06 -0800
Subject: CAC_Mail: Intellectualism or Experientialism as Abuses

To RevCow@aol.com:
which is the greatest abuse among Chinese Americans,
intellectualism or experientialism?

I. HISTORICAL HERITAGE OF THE CHINESE CHURCH: ANTI-INTELLCTUAL
EXPERIENTIALISM IN PIETISM

Immigrant church leaders from Taiwan and Hong Kong
have brought to the Chinese American church a form
of experientialism which is very anti-intellectual. This
anti-intellectualism comes from the US and from other
western countries, as missionaries in the late 19th and
early 20th centuries (the conservative branch) brought
to China the practices of pietism.

This pietism has several characteristics:
1. Anti-culture (this world is passing away soon, so
it is not important)
2. Anti-urban (missionaries came from Rural America
and ended up in Rural China)
3. Anti-intellectual (the intellect, along with emotions
and the will, belong in the soul, 2nd floor of man;
what’s really important is the spirit, on the 3rd floor,
the faculty through which man communes with God)
4. Anti-denominational (best to be independent
church, or independent faith missions, because
denominations are becoming liberal)
5. Anti-theology (watch out that you don’t become
liberal through studying theology; just stick to
the Bible and prayer)
6. Anti-organizational
7. Isolationist (created mission compounds and Chinese
churches which intentionally do not have an impact on,
or have a dialogue with, contemporary society in China)

II. CONTEMPORARY EXPERIENTIALISM IN AMERICA
AND AMONG CHINESE-AMERICANS

I find another, revised form of experientialism in
contemporary America, which is being discipled
into the Chinese-American community.

This has other characteristics:

1. Anti-theological: stick with exegeting the Bible,
doctrinal systems are all suspect.
2. Pragmatic: Whatever works (witness the multitude
of 12-step and other “Christian” books in Christian
bookstores, and the rarity of heavy theological,
doctrinal books in evangelical Christian bookstores)
3. Family-oriented: It seems that the only thing
that matters to Chrsitian family is the family. I realize
I am stepping on toes and am probably unfair in this
caricature, and saving the family is certainly a noble
and biblical cause. But there is certainly life beyond
saving our cocoons! God has also called us to
tend the garden, i.e. take care of the world (Gen. 2:15)
I find cocoon-building to be too much emphasized among
Chinese Americans (forgive me if I am wrong).
4. Self-oriented: we take away from Sunday sermons, etc.
whatever meets MY needs, sometimes exclusively.
Then we retreat into our private words in which privacy
and leisure reign supreme, sometimes as idols.
5. Weak-willed: While immigrant churches have wills
that are too strong (they need it to survive in a hostile environment),
2nd generation Chinese Americans need to be tougher to
survive suffering and harrassment (which comes from the
fact that we are Chrsitians, as well as from our marginality
as a minority among a minority…)
6. Cry for healing: legitimate healing, but sometimes therapy
offered is mistaken for the gospel (while therapy, legitimately
offered, can be a proper by-product of the gospel).

I don’t mean to say that intellect is everything, and experience
is not important. Experience is VERY important; thus we
need to have a biblical foundation to understand them.
As a matter of fact I am recently making
a new theological discovery in the sphere if supernatural
experiences. But certainly we need to be more scrutinous
and biblical in our use of emotions and in our understanding
of our experiences.

‘Nuf said. Critiques welcome.

Sam Ling
La Mirada, California

——————————

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:25:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CAC_Mail: Dislodging our churches from the Religious Right

Sze-Kar:

One of your recent post mentioned the need to “dislodge our churches from the
clutches of the Religious Right.” I’d like to hear you expand on this topic
some more. After all, if Chinese Christians who gleefully (and perhaps
blindly) follow the leaders of the Religious Right are our brothers and
sisters in Christ, why should we criticize their choices? I certainly
dislike being labeled and dismissed a “liberal” simply because I disagree
sharply with the policies promoted by Republicans. And though it seems okay
for some brothers in Christ to use LSD (i.e., Label, Slander, Dismiss) when
it comes to attacking “liberal” policies and “liberal” Christians, I still
think that we need to be more clear about our critique of the Religious Right
(w/o using LSD).

So, tell me, what is it about the Religious Right that we need to be
“liberated” from (beside their China policy)? I’ll suggest a couple of
things that seemed to have come up on this list in the past:
– – The Religious Right’s political agenda does not address the most central
concerns of Asian American Christians (or most American Christians, for that
matter); we are asked to conform to this agenda without anything in return.
– – We need to assert our own concerns (theologically, politically, etc.); and
we won’t be able to do so unless we are free of undue influence of the
Religious Right (and Euro-American Christianity, for that matter).

Any others?

Tim

– ————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com

——————————

From: SunaJaK@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:44:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Dislodging our churches from the Religious Right

Dear Friends,

What makes me uncomfortable with the Religious Right, and what we need to be
dislodged from are the following:

1. A world view imbedded in a western/elightenment ideology of individualism
that denies the existence of group rights or responsibilities, and also
denies the existence of institutional or structural sin.

2. A assumed confidence in the free market as the means of solving societal
problems.

3. An assumption that North American theology is unbiased and objective and
hence is assumed as normative for the rest of Christianity. All other
approaches to theology are biased by the culture context of the other person.

4. That the Bible’s teachings on justice is only about protecting the
individual’s freedom/autonomy; Biblical justice does not include social
justice.

5. An acceptance of the American Dream as the lifestyle of good Christians.
A longing for a mythical “good old days” when America was a “Christian”
nation and everything was so much better. In this sense, America needs to be
protected from change by “cultural outsiders.”

Hopefully these thoughts can be a starting point for a discussion on the
Religious Right and our response to this movement. Note, this list is not
all inclusive, I just thought of these off the top of my head this morning in
response to Timothy’s message.

Keith Sunahara
First Evangelical Free Church
Chicago, IL
Graduate Student at Loyola University Chicago
Ph.D. in Christian Ethics

——————————

From: HarryWLew@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:33:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Dislodging our churches from the Religious Right

Tim and Sze-Kar:

How about talking about conservative Christians “without resorting to LSD
(i.e., Label, Slander, Dismiss)”?

Do “liberal” Christians like yourselves really “address the most central
concerns of Asian American Christians (or most American Christians, for that
matter)”?

How about freeing us from the “undue influence” of the Religious LEFT,
especially in thinking that only you can properly address the concerns of
Asian Americans?

Harry Lew

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:48:07 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Mutual Edification

Dear Stephen:

Just a note of appreciation for your recent post to CAC. Without
commenting
on whether I agree or disagree with your points, I do want to say that
your
reply reflected a sense of grace and humility. You did not pull back
when
you had to disagree & yet gave the other person room to “save face.” You
realized that you did not have all the answers & yet made counter-points
not previously considered.

Such a dialogue elevates the communication process among fellow brothers
& sisters in Christ so that we can all be edified. I hope that we can
all
continue in the same spirit of gentleness.

In Him,
J. Chang

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:20:53 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Fwd: Press Release – China Legislation

Dear CACers:

FYI & more sparks for the ongoing discussions.

In Him,
J. Chang
—————
IN WAKE OF JIANG’S VISIT,
WILL CONGRESS BEGIN TO ADDRESS
ABUSES IN CHINA?

FRC URGES HOUSE TO TAKE FIRST STEPS
WITH ACTION ON CHINA BILLS

WASHINGTON, D.C. – “Last week, the American people paid close
attention to Chinese President Jiang Zemin’s visit to the U.S.,
and, like most people, I was disappointed by much of what I
saw,” Family Research Council President Gary Bauer said
Wednesday. “This week, our focus will be on Capitol Hill, and
like many, I hope to see Congress begin to address human
rights abuses in China and the emerging military aggressiveness
of the Chinese government.” Bauer made his comments as the
U.S. House of Representatives begins debate Wednesday on nine
pieces of legislation dealing with U.S. policy toward China.

Since the House voted to renew China’s most-favored-nation
status last June, there have been continual reports from China
of religious persecution, human rights abuses, and nuclear
proliferation:

June 26 – Two days after Congress voted to continue MFN for
China, imprisoned Chinese dissident Wei Jingsheng is beaten by
inmates with approval of prison guards (Reuters).

July 3 – Pentagon’s intelligence report indicates that China
has stepped up its arms build-up and is aiming missiles at the
U.S. (Washington Times).

July 3 – CIA report cites China and Russia as the leading
suppliers of technology related to nuclear, chemical, and
biological weaponry to various countries hostile to the U.S.
(New York Times).

August 20 – In an attempt to assert hegemony over Taiwan,
China attempts to derail the Panama Canal conference. China’s
delegation prevails in attaining the withdrawal of support and
participation by U.N. officials, and actively pressures
government and private companies to boycott the conference
(Wall Street Journal).

September 2 – Office of Naval Intelligence reports that China
remains the most active supplier of contraband weapons to Iran
and Iraq (Washington Times).

September 10 – Russia and China join together in building two
long-range nuclear missile systems in Iran, according to U.S.
and Israeli intelligence reports (Washington Times).

September 19 – China purges Qiao Shi, a reform advocate, and
other Chinese leaders from China’s Politburo. Qiao pressed
for a revision of the Communist Party’s condemnation of the
Tiananmen Square protests (Washington Post).

September 25 – Pastor Xu Yongze is sentenced to 10 years in a
labor camp, the harshest sentence given to a Christian believer
since 1982 (Compass).

September 28 – Hong Kong’s newly appointed Chief Administrator,
Tung Chee-hwa, all but eliminates democratic elections in Hong
Kong. The newly instituted law reduces the eligible voter
pool from 2.7 million voters to 180,000 (Washington Post,
Oct.3).

“When the Chinese president came to this country, he pointedly
refused to improve on these issues,” Bauer said. “Unbelievably,
U.S. officials responded by granting access to America’s
nuclear power technology, despite the fact that it is easily
converted for military use. China has a deplorable record of
transferring such technology to dangerous countries. Jiang
Zemin must have laughed all the way back to Beijing.

“American families won’t think it’s a laughing matter if some
day their children are endangered by outlaw nations with
nuclear arms. Our nation’s leaders must no longer place trade
ahead of the safety of America’s families.”

FOR MORE INFORMATION OR INTERVIEWS,
CONTACT THE FRC MEDIA OFFICE.

– ——— End forwarded message ———-

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:02:18 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Who is the Religious Right?

Dear Tim:

Before we can have a discussion about “why?” we need to define
“who?” Who is the “Religious Right?” We may find that it is not
so easy to label & neatly package such an entity.

In Him,
J. Chang

——————————

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:58:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: Who is the Religious Right?

J.

You’re absolutely correct. Labels are useless without specifics (after all,
the label “liberal” is used carelessly by many, too).

The religious right to me represent a coterie of politically conservative
Christian networks of organizations. IMHO, groups such as Navigators, PK
(though given the Family Research Council’s eagerness to support them, I’m
not so sure), InterVarsity, Youth for Christ, or other groups who
traditionally focused on ministry do not count as the “religious right”
though they may have many who espouse conservative politics within. In most
of these groups, political moderates, liberals, or radicals are not turned
away because of their views. After all, Billy Graham is a registered
Democrat and we know how important he has been to just about every
evangelical parachurch organization in the 20th century.

I would consider religious oriented groups like the Christian Coalition, the
Family Research Council, and – to some degree – Focus on the Family,
representative of the religious right, though I recognize internal
differences. All three are self-consciously political and social activists
(actually I applaud these new “social gospelers” – I believe that our faith
needs to address social questions). I just cannot see a clear cut connection
between biblical revelation and most (not all) of the public policy issues
they advocate. So-called “liberal Christians” get labeled as cultural
accommodationists, but I wonder about that. It seems to me that there is
alot more unthinking cultural accommodation going on among conservatives than
“politically correct liberals.”

I hope this helps with specificity. And I hope that those of us who are
critical of the “religious right” have read their materials carefully and
remain respectful in our remarks. I am tempted to get very passionate about
my honest disagreements, but it is because the Lord has burdened me with a
deep love for “the least of these” and a strong hatred of oppression of any
kind. I feel called to help raise up a new generation of prophetic, yet
pastoral, evangelicals (or other Protestants) who will have hearts for the
social realities that so many among the religious right simply do not see
yet.

In a message dated 11/5/97 11:19:22 PM, jtc10@juno.com wrote:

<>

– ————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com

——————————

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:04:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Fwd: Press Release – China Legislation

J.

Thanks for the FRC press releases. If I’m not mistaken, isn’t the Washington
Times a front for the Moonies (who happen to be very anti-Communist)? I
noticed in the press release that the most paranoid clippings come from the
Wash. Times (reports that China is aiming missiles at the US, etc), which
IMHO, creates a credibility problem. The other quotes are likely to be more
credible. Perhaps FRC is unaware of the credibility problems of the Wash.
Times?

Tim

In a message dated 11/5/97 10:56:38 PM, jtc10@juno.com wrote:

<>

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 01:21:06 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Dislodging our churches from the Religious Right

If only my colleagues could read these posts, now that I’ve bcome a
“liberal” 🙂

Dear Harry:

You are quite right in what’s left unsaid: my use of words like
“dislodge,” etc. is very unfortunate, and I wish I hadn’t used them.
This IS one of those slip-ups I talked about. Do accept my apologies.

Tim will have to speak for himself re the religious left. But I have no
love for them either, especially the more extreme forms. Pesonal faith
is always put on the back burner, and whatever decisions they make, they
make on basis of abstract notions like “justice” and “peace” that are
completely denuded of their foundation in God. Worse, from the
perspective of CAC, their theories of racial equality, while noble, are
never quite compelling enough to overcome their own self-interests. The
endproduct is often transparent hyposcrisy.

This is of course not true with every such organization or institution;
this list of complaints is more representative of personal bad
experiences with “liberal” institutions than anything else.

What I hear Tim advocate, and I am in agreement, is that we AA
Christians need to think for ourselves. I have been critiquing the
religious right–perhaps onesidedly and unfairly–bc they seem to me
resistant to the notion of self-determination. With the religious left,
the problem is of a different sort: they do not always practise what
they preach. Still, self-determination is no less a basis for my
critique.

In the heat of battle, I know I can sound strident and argumentative.
Occupation hazard, I suppose. But I do so partly because I know the
respect we have for each other creates a freedom and a space for us to
risk the deep exploration of important issues. Such exploration can be
painful at times but can also be rewarding in the long run, because we
do so in the spirit of Christian fellowship.

Respectfully in Christ,
Sze-kar

——————————

From: RevCow@aol.com
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:08:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CAC_Mail: WORK and WORD of God

Hi Bill.

>The RELATIONSHIP is what it’s all about.
Agreed.

>…what I perceive are the primary ways
>believers relate to God: “personally” and thru “the Word”.
WITH ALL OUR HEART, MIND, AND STRENGTH
Is it possible that to have an intimate relationship with God means to
have a high degree of both? Do they have to be mutually exclusive? I
see this as loving God with all our heart and mind. Believers who stress
social action might be understood as loving God with all their strength.
Jesus says that God seeks those who worship Him in both spirit and truth,
not one or the other.

The human tendency is to focus on one to the detriment of others, but I
believe that what pleases God is an intense relating with Him on all
fronts.

BIRDS OF A FEATHER–FRAGMENTATION OF CHURCH
The unfortunate phenomena that occurs (which is not limited to Chinese or
Asian churches) is that churches tend to focus on and do one, two, or
maybe three things real well, and they attract people who emphasize or
are already strong in those areas. Thus we have “Bible-based” churches
and they attract those who want more of the Word (negative aspects:
legalism, dryness, hearers/not doers), or we see “Spirit-filled” churches
attracting those who want more of the Spirit (negative aspects:
subjectivism, experience-seeking), or in fewer cases we see
“missions-emphasis” churches that likewise attract impatient doers.

FIVE-FOLD PURPOSE
All churches should have some degree of fruitfulness in Winning the lost
(evangelism), Exalting the Lord (worship), Fellowshiping with family
(koinonia), Instructing to maturity (discipleship), and Tending to Needs
(missions), courtesy the Greatest Command and the Great Commission [cf.
Rick Warren, “The Purpose Driven Church”].

Because of this, we have churches or even denominations that become more
and more differentiated, instead of more and more one (John 17) and more
and more loving. Ahh, but I’m probably preaching to the choir.

As you said, Bill, ’nuff said. Hope you and all of CAC’s readership are
well.

Spending too much time on this
digest and not enough in prayer,
Ted

Rev. Ted Kau
Harvest San Gabriel Valley

Each of us is either a missionary
or a mission field.
– –Anonymous

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:35:45 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Corporate Culture

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:21:42 -0500 “DJ Chuang”
writes
>
>May I ask, similarly, what do you find intrinsically evil or bad about
>capitalism as a viable form of economics? Do you imply a preference
>for socialism or Marxism? (and does that imply that the Gospel prefers
>socialism?)
>

Dear DJ,

Rambling again, to a degree, I would agree that the ‘economic system’ has
many forms. The ‘viability’ of a particular economic form depends on
‘perspective’. Embracing the Holy Spirit changes one’s perspective. In
the new perspective (e.g. in ‘newness of life’) there is (or develops) a
new meaning of existence; life is something radically different than
before. e.g. we could say that an implication (of knowing I AM THAT I
AM , Exodus 3) is that economics becomes a measuring device for, or
conceptual framework for, analyzing our NON-essentials 🙂 In essence,
then, the Holy Spirit maybe dismisses the economic system but does not
forbid balancing a check book and projecting a Biblical fiscal
soundness…

Are capitalism and socialism distinct options or choices within this
system? IMO, few if any people are either capitalist or socialist, e.g.
we all ‘suffer’ from the elderly capitalists who insist that Am. gov’t be
reduced/restructured to enhance private enterprise, but who also consume
enormous (even unnecessary?) quantities of Social(-ized) Security…

To me life ‘after’ (vs. ‘before’) the Holy Spirit boils down, not to a
(false?) choice between capitalism or socialism, but to accepting the
command to renounce the World system (I John). In reality, this would be
to turn from both capitalism and socialism as sources and ways of life
and also turn from them as ideal ideological frameworks. It would be to
admit to (my) abuses, corruption, so forth, and to (try to) cease from
doing them. It is to choose the alternative (now) to trust the Holy
Spirit and Christ who sent this Spirit into the World…

True, the World economic system is necessary in some sense, e.g.
necessary to ‘negotiate’ with now, as Dr. Tseng has pointed out. Perhaps
this means it is a necessary ‘evil’ and ‘evil’ present for the ‘good’
purposes of God. For instance, what if within the perspective of the Holy
Spirit the context of ‘freedom’ in the NT is captivity, not wealth? This
would be ‘good’ yet Christians in many circles are sworn to defend
capitalism/wealth, not ‘captivity’. Why, though, when from the Holy
Spirit’s perspective, defending capitalism (a necessary ‘evil’) is like
suicide? Why when it would lead many fine people to ruin, not to the
‘goodness’ of God?

Perhaps the Pauline antidote to ruin is found in Eph. 4:28 where a form
of ‘socialism’ emerges, I think, for OUR good. If so, it would be a (Gal
3:28-style ‘neither slave nor free’) generosity rooted, not in capitalism
(organized theft?), but in manual work which is not intended primarily to
please the State, but to please God. Manual work might mean, for
instance, doing a garden because God commanded us till, seed, weed the
soil in Genesis. And because Paul, through the Spirit, says:

‘He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing
something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share
with those in need…’

(I have to break off from rambling for now–feel free to interact. Thanks
for everything!)

Bro. G

——————————

From: matthew goh
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 18:19:25
Subject: CAC_Mail: BILLY GRAHAM MEETS WITH PRESIDENT JIANG ZEMIN

>Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:10:56 -0500 (EST)
>From: ChristianNet@ccis.org.uk
>Subject: [CN-WORLD] BILLY GRAHAM MEETS WITH PRESIDENT JIANG ZEMIN
>
> — [ From: B. J. Durston * EMC.Ver #3.1a ] —
>
>Billy Graham Evangelistic Association
>News Release
>
>November 2, 1997
>
>PRESIDENT JIANG MEETS PRIVATELY WITH BILLY GRAHAM
>Chinese Leader and Evangelist Discuss
>Religion in U.S. and China
>
>LOS ANGELES, Nov. 2 — President Jiang Zemin and American evangelist Billy
>Graham met today to discuss religious life in the United States and China.
>The meeting came near the close of the Chinese leader’s eight-day state
>visit to the United States.
>
> “I found the President to be very warm and personable,” Mr. Graham said
>after the meeting, which took place at the request of President Jiang. “He
>is highly intelligent and curious about our country, and has clearly learned
>much during his trip here. I told him I felt that he had a very successful
>trip, and hoped that he could come again for a more extensive visit.”
>
> Details of the half-hour-long private meeting — originally scheduled for
>fifteen minutes — were not revealed. However, Mr. Graham did acknowledge
>that they had discussed the issue of human rights in China, and particularly
>religious freedom. The Chinese constitution guarantees freedom of religion,
>although Chinese officials themselves have acknowledged that the guarantee
>is not always implemented well at the local level. A recent State Council
>document entitled “Freedom of Religious Belief in China” outlines in some
>detail the government’s policies toward religion. Some China watchers
>suggest this document indicates the Chinese government is giving greater
>attention to these issues.
>
> “Twenty years ago hardly one church was open in all of China,” Mr. Graham
>noted. “Today there are tens of thousands, and we should be very grateful
>for that.” In recent years the number of Christians in China has risen
>sharply, although they still are a small minority among the nation’s 1.2
>billion people. “Jesus told us to love our neighbor, and in today’s world
>everyone is our neighbor,” Mr. Graham added.
>
> Mr. Graham was accompanied by his son, the Rev. Nelson (Ned) Graham. Ned
>Graham is president of Seattle-based East Gates International, and has
>visited China over forty times. He reported to President Jiang that East
>Gates assists the churches of China by helping supply Bibles, religious
>literature and leadership training, with the legal permission of Chinese
>authorities. In the
>last few years the organization has distributed several million Bibles to
>China’s House Church believers.
>
> Both Ned Graham and his mother, Ruth Graham, were guests at a Department of
>State luncheon for President Jiang hosted by Vice President and Mrs. Gore on
>Wednesday, October 29. Ruth Graham was born of missionary parents in
>China’s Jiangsu Province, which is also the birthplace of President Jiang.
>
> “My family and I have always had a great love for China and the Chinese
>people,” Mr. Graham told the visiting president. “People in our
>two countries need to get to know each other better, and I think your trip
>here has been an important step in that direction.” He also said he was
>
>grateful for the opportunity to share his Christian faith with the President
>.
>
> Mr. Graham first visited the People’s Republic of China in 1988, when he
>preached in several cities and also met with Premier Li Peng and the present
>Executive Vice-Premier, Zhu Rongji (who was mayor of Shanghai at the time).
>He has returned to Beijing on two other occasions to preach and meet with
>officials. This past September, Mrs. Graham and Ned Graham also visited
>Beijing for several days, and met with a number of church and governmental
>leaders.
>
> Billy Graham recently completed a three-city crusade in the San Francisco
>Bay area. Although the Chinese suggested several locations for their
>meeting, Mr. Graham delayed his departure from California to meet with
>President Jiang in Los Angeles — the President’s last stop in the United
>States. On November 6, Mr. Graham will give the prayers at the dedication
>of the George Bush Presidential Library and Museum in College Station,
>Texas.
>
>
——————————

From: matthew goh
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 18:18:48
Subject: CAC_Mail: Religious Liberty in China?

Hi
Something relevant to the discussion…

>To: uighur-l@taklamakan.org
>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 01:40:10 -0700
>Subject: Religious Liberty in China?
>From: utkuremet@juno.com (Edgar Emmett)
>
>This interview was conducted recently in China with a high ranking
>official whose job it is to monitor religious activity. A Christian in
>an atheistic situation, he granted the interview only on condition of
>strict anonymity. He is an authority on the growth of Christianity and
>the precise attitude of the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party
>toward it.
>
>Many of our readership may find his point of view disturbing. However, we
>reproduce it because, (a) there are many in the so-called “third wave”
>house churches (began after the 1989 Tiananmen massacre) run by younger
>leaders who agree with his view, and (b) we feel it is important to grasp
>any chance to gain a clearer understanding of the attitude of higher
>level officials toward Christianity in general. China’s government
>remains immensely secretive, and reliable “inside” information on the
>attitude of high level leaders toward Christians is scarce indeed. As you
>will read, there is much to be encouraged about, and much to be concerned
>about.
>
>Compass Direct: Let’s start by asking you about the hottest topic of
>1997: persecution. In recent months there have been denials by Han Wenzao
>and Ye Xiaowen that there is any such thing as religious persecution in
>China. Or perhaps Han would nuance it to say that persecution is mostly a
>thing of the past save for some overzealous, outdated cadres who may
>still harass believers in certain areas. What is your view on this?
>
>ANSWER: I tend to make a distinction between persecution and
>discrimination. I would say that there is very little persecution, but
>massive discrimination. Let me explain.
>
>When you become a known Christian in China, you automatically lose
>certain rights. It is harder to obtain a job, a good education, trips
>abroad, etc., because the society is essentially run by members of the
>Communist Party for professing Communists. That’s discrimination. It
>happens to every Christian.
>
>Then, if you are a Christian, you are not free to practice your faith as
>you choose. You are obliged to keep it private, and practice it only in
>officially supervised settings. Chinese officials have made a silly
>mistake about religion. They equate it with public worship. So they
>think, if you can pray and sing in a church, then you are free. They have
>no concept of Christianity as a way of life. Again, that is highly
>discriminatory.
>
>By persecution I tend to think of Christians being thrown in jail,
>beaten, harassed, physically abused in some direct fashion. I believe
>there is very little of that relative to the size of the Christian
>population. Now I may be too far up the tree to know what’s going on at
>the roots, but I would be very surprised if there were more than a couple
>of hundred people incarcerated for their Christian faith. The last two
>years have seen some hundreds of arrests, but few have been sentenced,
>and most released. That is regrettable, and it is wrong to say there is
>no persecution, but it is minimal when you consider the Christian
>community may number more than 50 million.
>
>Compass: You do sound a bit sanguine about the fate of 200 people who may
>be languishing in jail for their Christian beliefs.
>
>A: Well, I don’t mean to, it’s just that here in China we are used to
>millions being persecuted, and if you lived here you would recognize that
>as an enormous improvement…to have only hundreds incarcerated, as
>opposed to millions. And I might add, even of those jailed, I would say
>in nine cases out of 10, the government has a very good reason to come
>hunting them.
>
>Compass: What do you mean by “a good reason?”
>
>A: I mean something foolish that virtually requires the government to
>take action.
>
>Compass: Can you give an example?
>
>A: Probably Xu Yongze. He has been getting more and more unorthodox in
>recent years, as well as abusing his power within his own movement. He
>attracted attention by his extremism. (SEE earlier article on Xu’s
>sentencing.)
>
>Compass: But it is denied that he is truly a cult leader.
>
>A: By whom?
>
>Compass: Those who have contacts with the movement.
>
>A: That’s precisely the problem. Other house churches that have contacts
>with the movement have themselves called him a cult leader. There is
>evidence that some of his followers are total charlatans, who have been
>hiding lights up their sleeves and then surreptitiously shining them in
>dark, crowded rooms as “the light of the Spirit.”
>
>Compass: But that can hardly be typical.
>
>A: Maybe not. All I’m saying is that there was enough that was peculiar
>about the movement to attract unwanted government attention. Other more
>orthodox movements do not have so much to fear. Don’t get me wrong. I’m
>not defending his arrest. I believe that if someone wants to teach that
>salvation is gained by performing a handstand over a bowl of bean curd
>that still does not merit a jailing. In a free society, we should laugh
>at them, not jail them. And Xu I am sure is a Christian, but he is in
>jail partly because of his own extremism. Another case is the recently
>arrested Xu Gouquing. He is a Christian house church leader, but what
>attracted the government to him was that he was criticizing Chinese
>foreign policy, claiming that the government was wrong to give up
>sovereignty over Mongolia. Sure, he shouldn’t be arrested for expressing
>silly political opinions, and so he, like Xu, is persecuted. But it is
>partly their own doing.
>
>Compass: You say there is actually positive news to report on
>persecution. Can you explain?
>
>A: It’s really extremely complex. Let me put it this way: there is much
>more religious freedom today than 20 years ago, and all indicators
>suggest that there will be much more freedom in 20 years time than today.
>China is committed to capitalism, which will continue to open the country
>up to Western ways, and the Maoist ideology–the motor of past
>persecution–is worn-out. So the good news is, religious persecution and
>discrimination are declining in the long term, and will continue to do
>so.
>
>The bad news is, the 1990s have seen a regression–the mid-nineties quite
>a strong regression–of this general trend. It does not alter the
>underlying positive pattern, but it is a cause for sadness and concern.
>The fundamental issue is that the government of China feels very insecure
>right now, and religious policy is always linked to that.
>
>Compass: Since you have so many contacts with high-ranking Communist
>Party officials, tell us what their attitude is toward religion in
>general and Christianity in particular?
>
>A: Puzzled and confused. High-ranking leaders are genuinely puzzled that
>there is so much turning to religion in today’s China. Li Ruihan recently
>declared to a committee, “Why is religion growing so fast? We need to
>know the answer to this before we can do much about it.” Buddhism
>especially is booming in the provinces. It’s the fastest growing religion
>by far. But Christianity is also growing, especially among educated young
>people. Now this is hardly surprising to those who knew that, before Mao,
>China was swathed in folk religion, and so this is it simply re-emerging
>from the embers. But to a generation that genuinely thought religion had
>been virtually exterminated, its resurgence comes as puzzling. “Where did
>religion go if it wasn’t destroyed?” said one of the Party leaders to me
>recently. I answered, “It went where it always is…the heart.”
>
>There is a different attitude to Christianity as opposed to, say, Daoism
>or Buddhism, because it is seen as a more subversive religion. Chinese
>leaders hold the Christian churches of Eastern Europe partially
>responsible for toppling the communist regimes in 1989 and 1990. Many
>foreign Christians are “stop-at-nothing” characters, who see the
>spreading of Christianity as something the state has no jurisdiction
>over, so they smuggle Bibles into China and conduct underground teaching
>seminars and so forth–the Chinese leaders are very threatened by those
>types of people.
>
>And then of course you have to realize that religion and nationalism seem
>to go together here. The Muslims of Xinjiang seem to use their religion
>to foment separatism. The Buddhists in Tibet use their religion to
>maintain a separate identity. Again this is very threatening to a
>Communist Party leadership that really can’t motivate people like these
>religions can.
>
>Compass: How does all this translate into an actual policy on religion in
>China?
>
>A: Well, this is where the confusion comes in. If you are puzzled about
>where religion comes from and what it is, how on earth do you control it?
>In 1995 it was decided to have a single new religious law for the whole
>of China. It was introduced on a trial basis in Shanghai in 1996, but was
>not a success. All the religions complained it was too restrictive. So
>now there is uncertainly about whether to have a nationwide religious law
>at all, and there is this unevenness of application and policy which is
>so confusing for everyone.
>
>Compass: Would you say that this policy involves stamping out the house
>churches?
>
>A: No, I don’t think that is a conscious intention in the minds of the
>top leadership. Religious policy in my view is dependent upon whether
>the Party leadership feels politically secure or not. If the leaders feel
>insecure about their rule, about their ability to govern China and lead
>China into the next century, they become more controlling, more
>defensive. This affects everything, from emerging trade unions to house
>churches. This is a time of great insecurity right now, so anyone who
>meets together in unofficial groups in this society right now is heading
>for trouble. That is why is it so hard for the house churches now, and
>probably will be for a few years more.
>
>But I don’t want to present a totally negative scenario. The very
>puzzlement, confusion and defensiveness that Party officials show toward
>religion right now are actually an opportunity for the Western church.
>
>Compass: What kind of opportunity?
>
>A: Well, quite simply, to join the debate on what to do with religion.
>Party officials are open to advice as never before. Of course, this
>advice has to be given from people who have taken the time to make
>friends with these officials. Fierce name-calling or denunciation from
>another country will not open the door. But for those who seek to
>befriend the leaders of this country, a golden opportunity awaits them to
>actually assist and guide leaders in their attitude to religion through
>this crucial period.
>
>Compass: Can you give an example of this?
>
>A: In a certain province I knew of a Party official who hated religion.
>He used to take any opportunity to jail Christian leaders. But a foreign
>Christian came to the city and began to build a hospital. The two of them
>had to work together on administrative matters, and for a time the
>official persecuted the local Christians more, just to goad this new
>foreign Christian. But as they worked together, a friendship slowly
>formed. The Party official was greatly impressed that this man would come
>to China and work for subsistence wages, when he could be getting rich in
>his own country. It turned out that the official’s wife had died in the
>1960s of starvation, and some Christians had tried to resurrect the
>corpse. He had been bitter toward them ever since. But after this
>encounter with this visitor, he began to ease off on the persecution, and
>even intervened when some of his officials persecuted other believers.
>
>The point is that the persecution in this case did not come from any
>ideological vendetta, but a private hurt that was eased through
>friendship. This could be happening all over China if Western Christians
>would make friends first with these officials.
>
>Compass: But there must be a place for firmness too? The persecuted must
>be named and their persecutors pressured themselves?
>
>A: Yes, I don’t think one should stop all criticism. Western Christians
>must articulate the cry of the oppressed; otherwise they would not be the
>true church of Christ. But one must be careful not to be so negative that
>you give off hate towards persecutors. Some of the criticism leveled
>against China this year I believe was hate-based. Some Christian leaders
>are involved in religious persecution issues because they hate
>communists, pure and simple. I’ve met them, so I speak from experience.
>To them I would say, keep the persecuted on the map by all means. That is
>your duty. But remember, there are no communists left, only Party
>members. Take the ideological sting out of your crusade. It’s
>inappropriate. Mao is not still running this country, and if you realize
>that, you can have more influence than you dream. But you must become
>friends first.
>
>Copyright 1997 by Compass Direct

——————————

From: Samuel Ling
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 08:24:38 -0800
Subject: CAC_Mail: Prayer for CAC

Dear Father in Heaven,
Creator and Governor of all things,

Thank You for everyone of Your children,
servants, men and women
who serve You
and the Cause of Your Son Jesus Christ.

Thank You for passion,
for diversity of
political,
social,
economic,
theological perspectives
and temperaments.
Father, I couldn’t believe that
what was imposible 20 years ago
is possible and happening right now
in the Body of Christ —
healthy interest in contemporary issues,
and an intense exchange of views,
and passions.

Thank You Father
for the hearts,
minds,
and pens (mice?)
of every brother and sister
in CAC.

And Father,
we pray that You will intervene
in Your own way
to relieve our brothers and sisters
who are persecuted in China
this very day.
We entrust them
to You,
directly,
totally.

Through Jesus Christ our Lord,
Amen.

Samuel Ling
La Mirada, California

——————————

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:33:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CAC_Mail: ANNOUNCE: CONFAB 1998

Dear CACers:

I’d like to announce the following conference. – Tim Tseng

CONFAB 1998
“Growing Deep, Reaching Out: Discerning God’s Direction for His People”
June 23-28, 1998
Biola University (La Mirada, CA)

Sponsored by the National Conference of Chinese Christian Churches.
Mission statement:
“The Mission of the National Conference of Chinese Churches of North America,
Inc. (CONFAB) is to provide mainline Chinese Christian churches in North
America, as well as others who may be interested, periodic opportunities for
fellowship, sharing and inspiration, so that the Christian outreach, witness
and service of these churches may be enhanced and strengthened.”

For more information, write

National Conference of Chinese Christian Churches, Inc.
1 Waverly Place
San Francisco, CA 94108
ATTN: Freddie Hee
(415) 221-2469

– ————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 14:51:59 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Corporate Culture, 2

>For instance, what if within the perspective of the Holy Spirit the
context of >’freedom’ in the NT is captivity, not wealth? This would be
‘good’…

Hi DJ:

Last night I was remembering Tim’s encouragement several months ago: ‘let
a thousand ideas bloom’. I really like that idea 🙂

At the juncture I copied to, above, the (rambling) train of thought
turned to Christians who ‘defend capitalism’, not ‘captivity’
(‘captivity’ in various levels of meaning in the NT, I think, is the
fertile soil of ‘freedom’ in Christ.) Well, for Brother Harry’s sake, I
was not on LSD and NOT unconscious of Christians who defend
socialism/Marxism/liberalism. I want people to know that am not one of
these. Let me ramble about this for a minute:

Once we (Christians) get into ‘negotiating’ in this World, it’s like Hell
breaks loose–well, it seems to bust loose like Chaos in me. There really
is no way to correctly systematize Hell, esp in terms of economics. There
is confusion and no economic approach which solves it. Yet, this is
exactly what socialism and capitalism appear to want–competing, of
course–for the assent of all people, in all places at once. To me this
is a Satanic, demonic, Hellish ‘agenda’ (or scheme).

Meanwhile, the current essential occupation of the Holy Spirit is not to
promote the victory of either of these organizational forces or the
non-eschatological demise of them. The Spirit leads in a different
direction or dimension away from this economic squabble over the agenda
of the World. The Spirit leads to the Cross and toward a Day of judgment
(connected to the Cross) in which no ungodliness will remain or survive.
God will battle Satan and the World (for us) and as we know now, in part,
will destroy them.

Our interim occupation, or ‘work’, in the sense of Ephesians 4:28, is to
be like that of the Spirit we love: ‘working’ to inform the World of Who
came and is coming, judgment-wise, and, to praise the living God as we
go.

This is all for now, except to say thanks to Sam for his poem this
morning, beautiful, and to turn CAC on to this poem, no, actually a Rock
song, the greatest Rock song of all time, by Larry Norman, 1992. (No LSD
required 🙂

<>

Bro. G

——————————

From: “GE Liang”
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 14:38:31 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: BILLY GRAHAM

Dear CAC,

Apparently, Billy Graham also knows a little bit about the Chinese language, or
knows someone that does! Check out his remarks intended for those at PK’s SITG, which
were not played because of the abrupt ending (due to running over time):
http://www.promisekeepers.org/manual/sitg/bgraham-remarks.htm

By His grace,
G.E.

Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com

——————————

From: “GE Liang”
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 14:40:42 -0700
Subject: CAC_Mail: Intellectualism or Experientialism as Abuses

Dear CAC,

Dr. Ling wrote:

>
>II. CONTEMPORARY EXPERIENTIALISM IN AMERICA
>AND AMONG CHINESE-AMERICANS
>
>I find another, revised form of experientialism in
>contemporary America, which is being discipled
>into the Chinese-American community.
>
>This has other characteristics:
>
>1. Anti-theological: stick with exegeting the Bible,
>doctrinal systems are all suspect.

>
>I don’t mean to say that intellect is everything, and experience
>is not important. Experience is VERY important; thus we
>need to have a biblical foundation to understand them.
>As a matter of fact I am recently making
>a new theological discovery in the sphere if supernatural
>experiences. But certainly we need to be more scrutinous
>and biblical in our use of emotions and in our understanding
>of our experiences.
>
>’Nuf said. Critiques welcome.
>

Surprisingly, even among those who have “dipped into” theology, many espouse a dialectic
between the intellectual and the experiential, or between God’s Word and all things
human, including man’s criticisms. Some have attributed the “leap of faith” mentality
to Kierkegaard and then Barth, tracing it further to Bultmann and Niebuhr. (Have
I listed anyone’s favorite theologian yet?) Many of my “intelligent” AA friends
subscribe to the thoughts of the Danish Kierkegaard or the Swiss Barth. I suppose
they could be labeled Christian existentialist at times. Periodically, I wonder
if I am really following mailing lists for the dynamic (dialectic) discussions or
for new information to try to synthesize….

Also “rambling,”
G.E.

More lightbulb jokes:
http://www.webcom.com/~ctt/comic.html

Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:31:34 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: School Choice

Dear Tim:

I appreciate your views regarding the school choice issue. While I can
add to the dialogue with my views, I cannot speak for the Family
Research Council (FRC) since I am not their spokesperson.

Local legislation was passed & a pilot program on school choice was
started
in Milwaukee where parents were allowed to use vouchers towards private
schools I believe. It was interesting that some of the proponents of
school choice came together from very different sides of the political
spectrums. Some conservative and liberal lawmakers in that city helped
to
pass that program.

The conservative lawmakers wanted less federal involvement in the local
schools, giving the local communities & parents more control over their
children’s
upbringing. The liberal lawmakers wanted the poorer urban neighborhood
children to have the same opportunities of a better education that the
wealthy
families would have. It was certainly a joining of “strange bedfellows.”
Polls
also show that about 85% of urban African-Americans are in favor of
school
choice.

Many of the poor inner city parents are desperate for better educational
opportunities for their children. They see the president’s daughter,
Chelsea
Clinton attending a private school but they themselves being denied that
same chance for their children.

To read what FRC believes about school choice, please go to their article
entitled: “With Liberty & Justice for All: Refining the Educational
Choice Debate”
at the web page:

For a more general policy position on: “How does FRC believe we can
improve
the public education system in America?” you can read about their stance
at:

In Him,
J. Chang

——————————

From: “Jennifer Lin”
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:45:30 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: CAC-ers

in regards to the capitalism and Christianity conversation,
would like to throw out a book by Alisdair MacIntyre..leading Irish American
professor of philosophy at Duke University entitled “Marxism and Christianity”.
very devout Catholic who poses some interesting assertions. up to date, he has
since recounced many of his earlier thoughts on the subject but the book still
retains its ability to question the Leviathan of Big Market Capitalism which
most Rel. Right advocates so embrace. is anyone familiar with MacIntyre’s book?
(definitely not one of his many books which have become seminal ones in field
of phil.).

jennifer

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 23:01:16 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Religious right

Dear Tim:

Thanks for the nuanced distinction of the differnt groups in the
so-called “religious right.” Glad you like my favorite group, IVCF,
too. Yep, is Jeanette listening?

Sze-kar

——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 22:36:00 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Dislodging our churches from the Religious Right

Since we’re on the topic of RIGHT and LEFT, let me pass along a
description of either’s attitude that I found both amusing and pretty
much on target:

A man has fallen through the ice of a frozen lake 50 feet from shore and
is crying out for someone to save him. The Rightist tells him not to
worry, that he is going to help him, then proceeds to through him 30
feet of rope and challenges him to make up the difference. The Leftist
arrives on the scene, offers the same pledge of help, throughs the
struggling man 100 feet of rope and then proceeds to let go of the other
end.

Too stereotypical? Probably. Well, if anything, maybe I succeeded in
adding a little levity to the discussion for a moment.

ken fong

——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 22:48:03 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Religious right

knowing Jeanette, she’s cyber-lurking someone out there, but she’s got
to be smiling from ear to ear. as someone who is sold on IVCF, I was
holding my breath as you listed them, but breathed a sigh of relief when
you later wrote that you didn’t consider them to be Right Wing.
Speaking as a member of the Board, I can tell you for a fact that the
sr. leadership and board members are definitely not Rightists nor
Leftists. That’s why I find it such a good fit and a fertile place to
wrestle with the implications and applications of the gospel.

ken fong

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:08:54 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: PhD/ThD Students-FYI: Charlotte W. Newcombe Doctoral Dissertatio

– ——- Forwarded Message Follows ——-

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:03:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Han-Ron Siah
To: “cac”
Hi,

I thought that there might be a few people on this list that might
qualify for this and be able to take advantage of the information.

Han-Ron

+————————————————————————-+
| Han-Ron Siah | University of California |
| hsiah@seas.ucla.edu | Los Angeles |
| ICQ UIN: 3208007 | http://wwp.mirabilis.com/3208007 |
+————————————————————————-+

– ———- Forwarded message ———-
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:11:09 -0800
From: Division, Graduate
To: Multiple recipients of list GRADFELLOWSHIPS-L

Subject: Charlotte W. Newcombe Doctoral Dissertation Fellowships

FELLOWSHIP:
Charlotte W. Newcombe Doctoral Dissertation Fellowships

TARGETED FIELDS:
Fellowship is intended primarily for the last year of dissertation
writing.

ELIGIBILITY:
Applicants must be candidates for Ph.D. or Th.D. degrees enrolled in
doctoral programs in the humanities and social sciences at graduate
schools in the United States, and expect to complete all doctoral
requirements except the dissertation by November 28, 1997.

PROGRAM SUMMARY:
Charlotte W. Newcombe Doctoral Dissertation Fellowships are designed to
encourage original and significant study of ethical or religious values
in all fields of the humanities and social sciences. In addition to
topics in religious studies or ethics, dissertations might consider the
ethical implications of foreign policy, the values influencing political
decisions, the moral codes of other cultures, and religious or ethical
issues reflected in history or literature.

STIPEND:
Winners will receive $14,000 for 12 months of full time dissertation
writing.
Between 30 to 35 awards will be made.

DEADLINE DATE:
Completed applications must be postmarked by December 12, 1997.

APPLICATION PROCEDURES:

All requests must be postmarked or received by e-mail by 11/14/97.

Application forms may be requested from:

Newcombe Dissertation Fellowships
The Woodrow Wilson National Fellowships Foundation
CN 5281
Princeton, NJ 08543-5281\
e-mail: charlotte@woodrow.org
**please include mailing address

***Applications are also available on http://www.woodrow.org/newcombe

——————————

From: SunaJaK@aol.com
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:42:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: Dislodging our churches from the Religious Right

In our use of the adjectives left, right, liberal, and conservative, I
believe we are ignoring a crucial distinction. There is a difference between
theological conservative, and social conservative, theological liberal and
social liberal. I get the impression that most people assume that if someone
is socially liberal, then they are also theologically liberal, and hence
ought to be considered “enemies of Christ” or “people in need of conversion
to the truth.”

I also believe that although we seem to use the adjectives conservative and
liberal quite liberally (excuse the pun), if we took a poll, we would come to
the realization that we are not operating on the same shared meanings of
“theological conservative, social conservative, theological liberal, and
social liberal.” Hence when we attempt to locate people in these categories
we get many people upset because they would not agree with what someone else
thinks it means to be located in one or more of these categories.

I suggest that we avoid using these adjectives unless we are attempting to
define them. When discussing differences in political or theological views,
rather than labeling them “theologically conservative, socially conservative,
theologically liberal, or socially liberal,” we should focus the discussion
on the idea itself.

For example, one quality of the Religious Right that makes me uncomfortable
is their disregard for social justice. If someone wants to disagree with me,
please don’t say “oh he’s liberal, therefore he’s wrong.” Rather say that
I’m wrong because the Bible does not teach social justice, therefore I’m
wrong to use social justice as a criteria for evaluating the Religious Right.
Or that the Religious Right actually does care about social justice,
therefore I’m wrong because I misunderstand the Religious Right.

We need to get away from the use of labels because the only thing that labels
accomplish is stifle dialogue. Put forward specific ideas and then discuss
the validity or credibility of those ideas.

Keith Sunahara
First Evangelical Free Church of Chicago (just a member)
Ph.D. Student in Christian Ethics
Loyola University of Chicago

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 12:07:09 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Faith and Scholarship 11-6-97

Rom. 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of
Christ.

Scholarship in “hearing” / studying the word of Christ will produce
faith. Faith is not to come from blind stupidity but from understanding
of the sure authority of God.

Ben

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 12:07:09 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Women and Ministry

Hi: Nov. 6, 97

Sorry for the long delay in responding; this especially to Tim’s note to
me on hermeneutics back on Oct. 11th; but also for Grace’s posting to
me on Oct. 20th.

Tim:

Thanks for the input on the importance that hermeneutic principles play
in trying to understand the Bible. This could be an extensive
discussion, but just briefly let me comment. Perhaps others may have
more input.

I am not familiar with the two hermeneutical principles to which you
drew our attention; Prophetic Protestant Principle and Southern Strategy.
The hermeneutical principle I am committed to requires a historical
principle (the historical context of the passage) and a grammatical
principle which would derive the same meaning as the recipients of the
passage would have understood it. Any meanings other than that would be
uncertain unless other passage of Scripture should so give that meaning
to it. Hermeneutical principles that subject the interpretation to the
interpreter is not acceptable since the interpreter becomes the voice of
God. Isn’t the interpreter also elevated to God if the hermeneutical
principle is rejected merely because the interpretation is not acceptable
to him? This can be due to one’s experiences or to one’s reasonings or
to both (which includes one’s culture).

Wild thot: “IF” God provided for slavery, then it would best benefit us
if we sought to understand the good and wisdom in such a provision.

Grace:

Hope it hasn’t been so long that we’ve lost continuity. I am grateful
for your responding to this subject.

1) Concerning the word “head” as used in I Cor. 11. I would understand
its meaning to be the same when it is used of the Father as head of
Christ as when it is used of Christ as head of the Church and when it is
used of man as the head of woman. Christ did and said what the Father
told Him to do and say. The Church is suppose to submit to Christ as
LORD in everything. “Head” therefore mean a position that has authority.
In the same sense, the man has the position of authority. The woman has
the position to submit.

Peter Woo’s explanation is concerned with the act of submitting; should
all women submit to all men?. Paul is describing the positions; the man
has the position of being the head over the woman (in Eph. 5, Paul is
dealing with husbands and wives). Is it a problem (morally or
rationally) that all men have the position of head to all women? If this
is a problem the solution is not in denying the meaning of this passage
but in understanding the line of authority, or as Bill Gothard puts it,
“the chain of authority.”

2) One cannot understand I Cor. 11:11-12 apart from verses 8-10. The
interdependence of man and woman in Verses :11-12 does not negate the
concept that woman was created FOR man’s sake in verses 8-10.

Going back to Gen. 2, before the fall and in the beauty and wisdom of
God’s act and purpose of creation, God created man. When God
demonstrated and declared that it was not good that man should be alone,
He purposed to make a HELPER suitable for him. In the design of God’s
creation, the woman was to be a helper to the man. This is not saying
inferior or less human. This is not saying she may be abused and is only
an object to be used. But it is saying she is to be man’s helper. This
is the meaning Paul is driving at in I Cor. 11:8-9. Does the word
“helper” have the primary meaning of “companion”? Does the word “helper”
mean she is to submit, to be in subjection to the man? I believe this is
the reason why Paul in Eph. 5 tells the wife to submit to her husband.
This seems to be the clear meaning of the Scriptures. It is not a
self-serving interpretation. I am not creating MY interpretation. I
would not have any problem if God had created woman to be a companion.
But the Scripture doesn’t say “companion” it says, “helper”. “Helper”
does suggest “companion” but it is not the primary emphasis. If I teach,
“Yes, the woman can be co-head.” I am not merely contradicting myself; I
am contradicting God’s Word.

If one wants a verse to equalize the roles of man and woman, it would be
Eph. 5:21; “and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ..”
Included in the “one another” is the man being subject to the woman. The
equality is in subjection not in headship. So also is the admonition
that illustrate Christ (who is the head of the Church) as humbling
Himself to die for the Church (Phil. 2). Greatness is not in having
authority and power over others, but in serving others. The divine
purpose for authority and power is to better serve. Man in seeking
greatness (different concept than the world’s) would seek equality with
the woman to be under subjection. What do you think about this?
By the way, headship is not the same as spiritual gifts. For example; to
prophesy is not equal to being head. A woman can prophesy.

3) Concerning the elder in I Tim. 3; the passage is describing a
position for men. The term “elder” is masculine. The possibility of
being a “husband” is limited to men. And all pronouns referring to the
elder is masculine.

4) How can one trust the interpretations of experiences? All
experiences has more than one interpretation. How does one know which is
right, if any? For example: When Israel defeated the Gentile nation, it
taught that Israel’s God is the true God. When Israel was defeated by a
Gentile nation, it did not teach that the god of that Gentile nation was
the true God. Rather it taught that God was judging Israel for her sins.
Human experiences is not a good mediator for our understanding of
Scripture. Our understanding of Scripture provides the proper
interpretation of human experiences. At best human experiences confirms
the truth of Scripture. This means that there must be an objective way
to obtain the correct interpretation. As indicated in the note to Tim,
through a historical grammatical hermeneutic.

5) As suggested in my earlier note on Gal. 3:28, this is not so much on
the equality of our position in Christ as in the equality of coming to
Christ. As all works of the Law is negated and everyone comes “by
hearing with faith,” (:2), so there are no advantages in being Jew nor
Greek, nor being slave nor free, nor being male nor female. This is not
a common interpretation and I am not dogmatic in it.

Whatever we may understand of the equality, the passage cannot be
teaching that the equality eliminated headship, elders, diversity of
spiritual gifts, leaders and followers.
Nor is the passage giving understanding to the purpose of the divine
reign, nor to how we are to live out and embody the ethics of God’s
kingdom.

Please comments, corrections, point out blind spots, support, expanding
understandings.

Praying that in the Church there would be glory to God.

Maranatha,

Ben

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 14:58:20 EST
Subject: [none]

Ted: 11-7

I am ignorant of the context of your comments. Maybe others are too.

Please expand and explain your meaning and understanding of how “social
action may be understood as loving God with all our strength”; and of
“worship Him in spirit and truth.” Is spirit = personally and truth =
Word?

At your convenience. You admonished me that prayer is more necessary
than all these postings. Thanks!

That we may worship Him,
Ben

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 14:58:20 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Women & Ministry 11-6-97

Hi:

Sorry!! In my last posting I meant to include Tim’s and Grace’s notes.
Here they are belated.

Grace wrote:

dated: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:59:32

Ben,

To respond to your e-mail addressed to me dated 10/13/97:

1. How would you understand the meaning of kephale (Eng. “head”)?
Hyunhye and I offer a definition of kephale in our article. In light
of Peter Woo’s 10/15/97 posting, do you believe that Paul had in mind
all women and men or only wives and husbands (or both) in Eph 5 and
I Cor 11? I find I Cor. 11:11-12 one of the most compelling passages
for advocating the interdependency of women and men in Christ (“all
things come from God”) over and above any biological (“man comes through
woman”) or chronological (“woman comes from man”) orderings.

2. I’m delighted to hear that you understand the standard of “one wife”
as expansively as you do. Like you, I firmly believe that the list of
qualities in I Tim. 3 are guidelines for maintaining godly leaders. But
many people cite the reference to “one wife” as an absolute bar against
having women as overseers, because, the argument goes, since a leader
must have a wife this automatically eliminates women from
consideration. In my opinion, that argument is as logical and helpful
as saying that the text is insisting that only single men can be
overseers.

3. Right — we mustn’t prioritize experience over Scripture, but we
must remember that all of our interpretations of Scripture are just
that: “interpretations” and that our understanding by necessity is
mediated through our human experience. So I’m glad when people own the
experiences that have informed their respective views. The information
helps me to understand where people are coming from and weigh the
factors that might have influenced them. E.g. I think Ken Fong
provided us w/ some useful history from his Fuller days. I’m humbled by
the caliber of female students he found at seminary.

5. Gal 3:28 is about our identities in Christ. Many people argue,
however, that this passage on equality should be applied exclusively to
our position in salvation. But didn’t God initiate us into the divine
reign for a purpose? Are we not to live out and embody the ethics of
God’s kingdom — values which are so alien to the world — and make them
a viable, living reality here on earth?

Praying as Christ taught us “Your kingdom come, Your will be done on
earth as it is in heaven,”

Blessings,
Grace

– ——— End forwarded message ———-

Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:58:03 -0400 (EDT)
To: ben_mel@juno.com

Hi Ben:

I didn’t interpret Ken’s posting about women in leadership as one of
pragmatism or expediency. Rather, I thought he (and Grace in her article
for
the Priscilla papers) established a guiding principle for how Holy
Scripture
is to be interpreted by citing Genesis 1-2. So, while I think your point
about elevating Asian American leadership to the standards of I Tim 3 is
a
valid concern, how that passage will be interpreted (and more
importantly,
how that interpretation will impact the practice of ministry or the life
of a
congregation) in light of one’s operating hermeneutic is just as
important.
Many evangelicals believe that the abolitionist principle (see Craig
Keener’s
works) [or what others call the Prophetic Protestant principle]
undergirds a
proper interpretation of Holy Scripture. This principle disavows
hierarchical, repressive, legalistic ways of looking at Scripture in
favor of
a more communitarian and egalitarian vision of the Kingdom of God. Even
more
evangelicals embrace the Southern strategy – a hermeneutic originally
designed to justify slavery – but now used with a vengeance to advocate
more
rigid and hierarchical interpretations and actions. The Southern
strategy is
quite understandable because in our post-modern era of confusion and
fragmentation, many are tempted to return to hierarchy in order to impose
some sense of order to a society that seems to be spinning out of
control.
But, I believe that this is a mistaken strategy. More often it leads to
witch hunts and repressive regimes rather than genuine religious freedom
and
social responsibility.

Granted, these two “hermeneutical principles” are simplistic heuristic
devices, but they help me understand how our different sub-cultures
influence
the way we interpret God’s Word. It also helps to be consciously aware
of
how our social location or culture influences our interpretation of the
Bible
and Christian action in the world.

So, if we are to train good and godly leadership, it seems that we’ll
have to
encourage them to wrestle with these hermeneutical issues at the same
time
that they wrestle with the Scriptural standards you rightly call leaders
to
attain. – Tim

– —————————-
I trust this will give some continuity to my earlier posting.

Ben

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:15:55 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Happy Birthday!

Today (11/7/07) is the Rev. Billy Graham’s 79th birthday.

Happy Birthday, Rev. Graham! Thanks for your many years
of ministry!

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:03:08 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: The “Religious Right” label

Dear Keith:

Thanks for your insights! You made very good points regarding:
1) the differences between the varied theological/social views
2) the need to focus on the issues/ideas
3) the need to avoid generalized & convenient labels

However, “religious right” also is a label with its own varied
perceptions of definition. For example, in an earlier post, Tim
presented his definition of the “religious right.” Some CACers
breathed a sign of relief that IVCF was not included as part of the
definition. For our own purposes within the forum of CAC, that
may be generally acceptable conventional wisdom. However,
it is possible that the public-at-large, the mainstream media, and
different political/social groups may or may not consider
IVCF or other Christian groups as part of the “religious right.”

IMHO, the perception of what is the “religious right” varies
depending on who is doing the defining. Those who are not
sympathetic with “religious right” values generally don’t have
a problem using such a term. Those who are sympathetic
with “religious right” values may feel that it carries a negative
connotation since the label has been stigmatized by the media
and political pundits.

Perhaps, “religious right” is also another label to use with much care
as it may mean different things to different people.

In Him,
J. Chang
– ————-
On Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:42:44 -0500 (EST) SunaJaK@aol.com writes:
>We need to get away from the use of labels because the only thing that
>labels
>accomplish is stifle dialogue. Put forward specific ideas and then
>discuss
>the validity or credibility of those ideas.

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 16:57:17 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Women and Ministry

Dear Ben:

Thanks for your substantial postings. You’ve raised a whole host of
very important issues. Thank you for reopening them.

I agree with you 100% that understanding must be a part of our faith; we
cannot submit to what we cannot understand (in your “Faith and
Scholarship” post).

If that’s the case, however, it vastly complicates the whole
hermeneutical picture. You are right in saying, “Hermeneutical
principles that subject the interpretation to the interpreter is not
acceptable since the interpreter becomes the voice of God.” To create
God out of our own image is idolatry. But, if understanding is
required, can the interpreter be so easily extricated from the
equation? Is it possible to make a clean separation between
“interpretation” and “interpreter”?

Take the following chain of communication:

God–>Word/Bible–>Reader

God spoke the Word and the latter is inscripturated into the Bible. If
the Reader does not understand the Bible, there is no communication and
there is no access to God through his Word. “Understanding,” therefore,
is an absolutely necessary ingredient; it is inextricably bound up with
the Reader. A revised communication chain would look like the
following:

God–>Word/Bible–>Understanding/Reader

If so, “Hermeneutics”–the system that produces an “Interpretation” that
makes Understanding possible–must be a part of the same chain. As a
third-level of details, we have:

God–>Word/Bible–>Hermeneutics/Interpretation–>Understanding/Reader

In other words, Hermeneutics stands between the biblical text and the
Reader and cannot be separated from him or her. If a hermeneutical
system produces an Interpretation INcomprehensible to the Reader, there
is no understanding, and there can be no faith. What I just outlined
here is not new: it’s what philosophers (e.g., Wittgenstein) call
“language game.”

Take your slavery example as test case. I don’t think you or anyone on
CAC would advocate slavery as a viable social system, even though it’s
described in the New Testament. So, when we come to the Household Codes
where the slave-master relationship is laid down (Col 3.22-4.1; Eph
6.5-9; etc.), some sort of hermeneutics must be in operation: we must
“understand the good and wisdom” of it as you said. Why can’t we simply
submit to it literally–without any input from the interpreter? Because
(a) we don’t live in a slavery society (our historical & social
location); and (b) we think slavery is evil (20th-century moral
standard). In other words, to take these passages literally would be
utterly INcomprehensible to us. Here I take the notion of
incomprehensibility in the MORAL rather than the epistemological sense,
but the case still stands. Our experience, our moral commonsense (which
is not common at all but is developed over time), our social location,
our reason–all this plays an indispensable role in our understanding
and, hence, in our hermeneutics. Other examples can be multiplied.

I applaud your use of a historico-grammatical hermeneutics in your
reading of the Bible, for that’s my overwhelming preference as well.
But I think we (i.e., you and I) should also be aware of the cultural,
historical, and philosophical biases built into the method. It was
founded on the Enlightenment principle of separating subject (Reader or
Interpreter) from object (Text). Grammatical, lexical, and historical
tools were then devised to bracket the Interpreter’s own subjectivity,
personal allegiances, dogmatic commitments, etc. The goal was to come
to some “objective” result recognizable by all. But the collapse of
rationalism brought an end to that project. And as you recognize,
Understanding must needs play a part in our faith, and Understanding
necessarily involves the Interpreter himself or herself.

Furthermore, we should also recognize that the grammatico-historical
method was NOT the method of choice in the New Testament! Paul calls
his own interpretation of the Hagar and Sarah story “allegorical” (Gal
4.21-31; see esp. v. 24). (The NIV shies from “allegorical” and calls
its “figurative,” but see NASB and NRSV. The word is “allegorousthai,”
literally, “to be said allegorically.”) See also 1 Cor 10.1-5, where
Paul identifies the rock following the Israelites in Exodus as “Christ”
(v. 4). Now, in both cases, a straightforward grammatico-historical
reading of the Hagar-Sarah story and the Exodus account would NOT yield
the Pauline results of “earthly Jerusalem-heavenly Jerusalem” and
“Christ.” Was Paul wrong? No way! Or as Paul would say, “me genoito!”
🙂 But then, should we abandon our grammatico-historical method?
Well, not yet, at least not for me. But surely this tells me the G-H
methods is not as omnipotent and value-free as I once thought.

Just some ruminations for further discussion.

Respectfully,
Sze-kar

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 17:12:30 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: The “Religious Right” label

Dear J.:

As someone who first used the “Religious right” label, I can only agree
with you that we should use it advisedly. Tim’s recent posts have in
fact helped me to be much more careful.

Sze-kar

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:30:12 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Women and Ministry

On Fri, 07 Nov 1997 16:57:17 -0500 Sze-kar Wan
writes:
>Dear Ben:
>
>Take your slavery example as test case. I don’t think you or anyone
>on CAC would advocate slavery as a viable social system,
>
>Just some ruminations for further discussion.

Dear Sze-kar,

Without sounding ludicrous`, I hope, I’d like to suggest that there may
be more beneath the surface of this ‘slavery’ example (and issue) than
first meets the eye. As I mentioned to DJ yesterday, I think ‘viability’
is a function of ‘perspective’. It applies here, too, if comparing a
slave worker in 1857 and a slave worker in 1997. This comparison may
yield some very interesting results. Aside from the specter of low social
status and (isolated cases?) of physical abuse (of the Frederick Douglas
variety), job-wise, the slave of 1857 actually had a pretty good deal.
Most everything he needed was provided for and through his work via the
master/plantation (system). But the slave of our generation has precious
little if anything ‘provided’. The modern system is always unmerciful,
but many Civil War-era slaves actually enjoyed merciful
masters/circumstances. Being able to own rather than be owned is
important, but this does not mean that a modern slave worker is better
off in an overall sense. In fact, a reality check on this point may yield
the picture to CAC that the misery quotient of modern slave workers is
vastly greater (on average, across the board) than that of an Am. Civil
War slave. To point this out does not mean that I advocate ‘slavery’. It
does mean, however, that I doubt it has been abolished in Am. In fact, I
think it is possible that Am. slavery (and Am. influenced global slavery)
has evolved from an in-humane to an even more in-humane form. The
prospects for the (global) workers of the next century could be
disgustingly bleak, esp with, as Tim mentioned, the demise of Unions.

Respectfully,

Gary

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 22:04:03 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Women and Ministry

G Ottoson wrote:
>
> … Being able to own rather than be owned is important, but this does
> not mean that a modern slave worker is better off in an overall sense.
> In fact, …the misery quotient of modern slave workers is vastly greater
> than that of an Am. Civil War slave….

Dear Gary:

You are quite right that a modern “slave worker” could lead a more
miserable life than a Civil War slave. But my African-Am friends would
be the first to tell me that, while a great deal still has to be done,
the world has made a quantum leap. The law is now on the side on the
workers inasmuch as it wasn’t on the slaves. It took another 100 yrs
for Afr-Ams to vote, but that right is now guaranteed. The rise of the
Afr-Am middle class is now possible in a way it couldn’t have been 100
yrs ago. And so on.

Don’t misunderstand me. I’m not saying the status quo is golden; I’m
simply saying the world has changed. Its value system has been totally
overturned. The master-slave paradigm has been decisively rejected–at
least in the West–as an acceptable mode of discourse. Even if someone,
say, an industrialist, wants to reap the benefits of a master-slave
relationship, he or she has to hide it under the cloak of something
else. He or she has to justify, say, the hiring of non-unioned,
below-minimal wage, or overseas workers in terms of jobs, the
bottomline, or the stockholders, etc. But what he or she cannot and
would not say is that he or she is buying up slaves. This does not mean
there is no slavery–which is your point–since human depravity knows no
bound. Exploitation will continue to happen. Rather, slavery as a
“social system”–which is my point–has such overwhelmingly negative
connotations that it is not viable as such.

When exploitation happens, it is up to social critics like yourself,
Tim, and in my view all Christians to point out that the
exploiter-exploited relationship is in truth no better than a
master-slave relationship. You see, what makes this argument work is
the common acceptance by all interlocutors that slavery is evil. In
defense, the exploiters will try to demonstrate that their treatment of
their workers is NOT like the masters’ treatment of their slaves. What
they will NOT do is acknowledge the similarity but argue that slavery is
good.

By contrast, antebellum slave-owners were perfectly within the bounds of
law and social customs to defend slavery as a social system and to
assume it as one of the bedrocks of social stability. They had critics,
of course. Always did, ever since the days of Exodus and Periclean
Athens. But the debate then was on whether slavery could not be
considered a “relative” good–not ideal but nonetheless good. I doubt
anyone in the west today would seriously attempt such a strategy.

Orlando Patterson (whom I don’t always admire) wrote a brilliant book on
the subject: _Freedom: Freedom in the Making of Western Culture_, in
which he argues the western notion of freedom has always depended on
slavery as a correlative. He begins from the Greeks and goes through
the NT materials, but unforunately stops at medieval Europe. Don’t know
what he has to say about modern American freedom in the absence of
slavery. Maybe others on CAC better versed in Patterson or similar
matters could fill me in. I am out of depths here.

Warmly,
Sze-kar

——————————

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:57:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Christian leaders and China

Dear Fenggang:

I read about the meeting – Graham definitely did not approach Jiang with the
same threatening posture found among other conservative Christians. I wish
more of our younger evangelicals would emulate him. – Tim

In a message dated 11/6/97 3:15:35 PM, fyang@uh.edu wrote:

<>

– ————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:04:16 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Corporate Culture

To G Ottoson:

My question was to ask the critics of capitalism.. what it is that
makes corporate capitalism so evil (from the rhetoric given), and if it
is evil, what is the correct ‘biblical’ alternative? Would that be
socialism?

I’m not one for simple answers, but neither for spiritualized ones..
I’m not sure what to make of your response, which seemed esoteric (I
hope that’s a nice word, I’m wanting a nice word for the sophistication
of your “ramblings” *grin*).

The thing about these “self-criticism” or evaluation of conservative
politics and theology (and conservatism on one realm does not
necessarily correlate to the same leaning in the other, as one rightly
pointed out), is that

(1) to only voice problems offers no alternative nor solution,

(2) critiques of issues sometimes borderline on slander (for
those that can’t separate issues from individuals), and

(3) some readers are put off by such evaluation (particularly
conservatives, of which I would guess comprise a good portion of
CACers),

(4) such critiques do not invite dialogue but rather tends to drive a
wedge of stereotyping, labeling, and plain old doesn’t make some
people feel very good. (and by saying this, I don’t mean that
Christians can only talk about things that “edify”, which seems to be
a code word among some to only talk about good things and ignore
issues so problems are swept under the rug).

So when critiques are presented, it seems more helpful to be careful
with word choice, and to offer an alternative or solution. Scriptural
insights would also be helpful.

DJ

On 6 Nov 97 at 1:35, G Ottoson wrote:

> Rambling again, to a degree, I would agree that the ‘economic
> system’ has many forms.
:
> e.g. we all ‘suffer’ from the elderly capitalists who insist that Am.
> gov’t be reduced/restructured to enhance private enterprise, but who
> also consume enormous quantities of Social(-ized) Security…
– —
*

——————————

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:27:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: Dislodging our churches from the Religious Right

Harry, et. al.:

First, I must make a public apology for responding to Sze-kar’s private email
to me on the CAC forum. I mistakenly believed he intended it for the larger
group. On the other hand, I’m glad that it evoked somer quality responses –
which, IMHO, improves the CAC list. Clearly we disagree on several issues
and I thank God for that, since more is learned by having our “prejudices”
tested than by having them reinforced.

Second, I want to reiterate Keith Sunahara and Sze-Kar’s points. Labels
don’t work. I echo many of Sze-Kar’s complaints about the “religious left.”
Based on my experience, what I like least about many [not all] “liberal”
congregations are their lack of spiritual vitality, their cultural
accommodation, their lack of real interest in justice issues (mostly
theoretical), their condescension towards evangelicals, their paternalism
(and racism), and their disregard for God’s Word. Okay. Does that satisfy
anyone? Am I now sufficiently free of the “religious left”?

As a historian, I know very well the fallacy of “categorizing” people.
Indeed, most social gospel advocates during the turn of the century saw the
value of using social theories (which emerged from missions to poor
communities) and were thus labeled “liberal.” But the truth is that most
theological liberals were quite conservative, socially and ideologically.
Furthermore, many theological conservatives shared much in common with
social gospelers. Look at Norris Magnuson’s study, _Salvation in the Slums_,
which traces the history of the Salvation Army, the Volunteers of America,
and the Christian and Missionary Alliance’s origins to revivalists who were
very close to the social gospel socio-political positions.

To address your specific questions below, I agree with your first statement.
I do not want to use LSD when I talk about the “religious right.” I’ll
probably have to qualify everything I say in the future so that readers will
know when I’m using a descriptive (and hopefully, neutral) statement or a
provocative one. E.g, I don’t use the words “racism” or “racist” to attack
people. These are words that honestly describes American history and
society. Yes, I agree that America is a fine country – one that I love and
want to participate in – but the TRUTH must be heard before healing and
reconciliation and justice can occur. In any case, very rarely have I or
anyone on this list used the term “racist” as an attack on people. So I
don’t believe that the term “racist” (or “religious right”) should be
censored from this discussion list. And while some on this list may disagree
with policy proposals by the Republican Party, the Christian Coalition, James
Dobson, the Family Research Council, I’ve not heard much LSD going on –
generalizations, perhaps, but no LSD. No one has accused Dobson or Bauer of
NOT being real Christians. In fact, as I’ve said so often, I appreciate
hearing substantive defenses of politically conservative policy proposals
(you’d be surprised at how many of them I agree with!).

Re: addressing the most central concerns of Asian American Christians – in
fact, yes, I believe that I am making a good faith effort, though I never
said I was an authority on Asian American Christian interests. But at least
I do not propose policies which will delegitimize our right to be a people –
e.g., the cries against “color consciousness” so often heard in
anti-affirmative action circles who would never complain (as some secular
liberals do) about the right to “religious consciousness”. I don’t dismiss
(nor always agree with) “secular” Asian American activists when they complain
about anti-Asian sentiment. Nor do I jump on the anti-China bandwagon simply
because conservative religious leaders and liberal social activists have
united in protest. In fact, I’m equally concerned about the impact of these
activities upon fellow believers in China and the way Chinese Americans are
perceived – e.g., during the Korean War, many Chinese Americans worried about
being “interned” like the Japanese Americans during World War II. As a
minister of the Gospel, I care deeply about ministry among Asian Americans
and have endeavored to write a history of Chinese Christians in North America
regardless of the topic’s lack of popularity in the academy. I pray that
this and other research will encourage “secular” minded Asian Americanists to
view Christianity more favorably and will encourage the dominant culture
Christians to recognize the existence of Asian American Christianity. Yet,
so often, no matter how often I bring these points up, the most recalcitrant
responses come from ideologically conservative Chinese Christians who rarely
give substance to their ideological commitments. The impression I get from
some is that “if it’s spoken by a conservative white male who claims to be
Christian, it must be Gospel truth and how dare anyone question it!?” Now,
how does that attitude reflect the real interests of Chinese or Asian
American Christians? What words can I find to describe this attitude in my
history project? Perhaps there is no value in writing a history of Chinese
American Christianity if Chinese American Christians give no thought to their
identity, history, and the impact of ideological positions and public
policies on their communities?

Just wondering,
Tim Tseng

In a message dated 11/6/97 6:18:40 PM, HarryWLew@aol.com wrote:

<>

– ————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com
– ————————————————————

——————————

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:33:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: BILLY GRAHAM

G.E.:

Wasn’t Graham’s wife, Ruth, the daughter of a Presbyterian missionary to
China?

In a message dated 11/7/97 3:13:45 AM, xformed@mailexcite.com wrote:

<>

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 01:31:13 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Corporate Culture

On Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:04:16 -0500 “DJ Chuang”
writes:
>To G Ottoson: I’m not one for simple answers, but neither for
spiritualized ones.. I’m not sure what to make of your response, which
seemed esoteric (I hope that’s a nice word, I’m wanting a nice word for
the sophistication of your “ramblings” *grin*). >

Yo DJ,

The politeness–I think I could get used to it 🙂

Straight from the heart–>I’m not an answer man; mostly short questions
is what you can expect from me among CAC. This is due to meddling in
esoterica, poetry, humor, etc…my wife, Robin, who is a very precise and
gifted thinker like many (of) CAC, says my brain ‘works like a snow
blower’ except for when ‘lobbing grenades in the oatmeal’ 🙂 But I
promise to try to improve upon clarity esp since I’m realizing that
people read this stuff.

Here’s a key question (or two) for now. Is CAC conservative? I know
everyone is pretty cool even when they’re mad. It’s wonderful! But how
would one know who is conservative except maybe for you and Bros. Harry
and Bill and Richard?

DJ, have you posted a powerful conservative argument yet except for the
substantial works of renowned liberals like Sze-kar 🙂

Where are all the ‘conservatives’–more conscious of labels I am learning
to be–are they out listening to Rush Limbaugh? Tell them I sense a
cryin’ need for them to step up to the plate and take a full swing. An
esoteric one would be fine. Are you ready to ramble? 🙂

Go for it. I won’t mind. Neither will G.E. We think rambling is cool. In
fact, I told him I could understand HIS rambling much better than I
could understand MINE:)

You and I seem to have the same problem DJ 🙂 Keep after me about it.

Your brother, G

P.S. BTW Has anyone heard from Mooch in while? I enjoyed his thoughts on
PK.

——————————

From: drwong1@juno.com (Richard L Wong)
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 04:39:01 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: The Religious Right?

Keith:

I don’t mean to sound disrespectful, but after your lengthy note
describing the four quadrants of theological and social thought and the
need for precision rather than simplistic adjectival labelling, you
proceeded to criticize the “Religious Right,” not once, but twice!

Now, who IS part of this Religious Right? Are they really the monolith
that you make them out to be? Do the members agree with each other 100%?
What ARE their beliefs? From what religions sect does the RR come?
What makes one a member of the RR? Is there a specific individual who
personifies the RR? Or is it simply a label that you conveniently use to
describe somebody with whom you do not agree?

Richard

——————————

From: “Peter P. Huang”
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 97 09:20:46 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: The “Religious Right” label

>Perhaps, “religious right” is also another label to use with much care
>as it may mean different things to different people.
>
>In Him,
>J. Chang

i’m reminded of some time ago when i was graduating from college and
applying to seminary. my decision to attend fuller seminary was regarded
by some as applying to a “liberal” school by those who are from more
conservative background. people were cautioning me against the things
that i will be learning at fuller. i felt that i had to “defend” fuller
as a solid evangelical institution.

then a couple of weeks later, i ran into my best friend’s father who is a
PCUSA minister (my friend at that time had also applied to seminaries and
decided to attend princeton seminary). when he learned that i was going
to fuller, he replied, “that school is VERY conservative! are you sure
you want to go there?”

i had a good laugh. so, you are absolutely right (absolutely no pun
intended) when you say that labeling is very subjective.

isn’t that what stereotyping is all about anyway? we frequently don’t
have time and the attention to explore issues and people and the easiest
thing to do is to arrive a quick decisions that confirm our biases and
existing mental schemas. whether it’s the religious right or left or
perceptions of Asian Americans, or whichever other issue… often it’s
those who are in power who are doing the defining. in each of our
smaller circles, it’s who’s in power that frequently define these labels.
often times as pastors and professors, we do need to be careful with the
labeling that we do, because people pick up these lingos or prescriptions
from us even without us knowing it. sometimes, our casual labeling may
not mean a thing to us, but people whom we lead take what we say very
seriously (sometimes way too seriously). in the larger scheme of things,
it is again usually those who are in power who do the labeling – whether
it’s in our society or through our government.

for example – another can of worms – are we REALLY the model minority as
asian americans, or have we (and the rest of America) bought into this
way that our government and media has chosen to conveniently label us?

peter huang

– ————–
Peter P. Huang
petie@ix.netcom.com
home: (310)530-8081 fax: (310)530-8802
work: (626)280-0477 work email: phuang@ebc1.mhs.compuserve.com

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 14:17:02 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: The “Religious Right” label

Dear Peter:

You hit the problem right on the head! My decision to go to
Gordon-Conwell solicited the same confusing reactions.

Sze-kar

——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 22:45:42 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Dislodging our churches from the Religious Right

excellent point, keith. thanks for making it.

ken fong.

——————————

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:50:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: Corporate Culture

Gary, et. al.:

It’s exceedingly difficult to compare misery indices between historical
periods as different as pre-Civil War and post-industrial America. But, the
substance of your argument is sound, IMHO. Do you recall the stats whereby
in the 1970s, CEOs made on average 40 times as much as the lowest paid
employee but now, CEOs make 140 times as much? And this is not only in
America – it’s a phenomenon happening everywhere global corporate capitalism
has found niches.

There is, however, one major difference between now and the past. The
institution of slavery was built on theological, political, economical, and
ideological justifications for a person to own another. It was based on the
idea that some people had no rights (which is a feature built into the U.S.
constitution – the founders “intended” that blacks count as only 3/5 of a
person).

But, the Civil War marked the triumph of the idea of freedom for owners and
workers. The irony was that the U.S. government recognized corporations as
individual entities, thus, establishing a system where power was clearly
distributed disproportionately (i.e., until the early 20th century, workers
unions were not permitted to be treated as individual entities, rather, each
individual worker was considered a free agent under contract). After the
overthrow of the Radical Republican agenda for Reconstruction in the South
(whereby much affirmative action-like govn’t assistance was given to the
Freedmen) in the 1870s, America witnesses its worst period in race relations
(and class relations, if one takes into account the rise of the Carnagies,
the Rockefellers, etc.). Jim and Jane Crow, share-cropping, and other
terrible abuses of Blacks in the South and immigrant workers in the North
lends support to the idea that corporate capitalism – if unrestrained – could
lead to conditions far worse than plantation slavery.

So, for me, the issue is not so much critiquing mulitnational corporate
capitalism (it certainly has increased wealth, though disproportionately),
but finding ways to make it work for as many people as possible. The
traditional liberal solution was to use big government as a restraining arm.
But this has been critiqued sharply by neo-conservative economists and
politicians (some of which are on target, IMHO. Gov’t is probably too large
and levies heavy tax burdens – though the fact that welfare is targeted and
not social security or national “security” says alot about whose entitlements
are being protected).

But, if government cannot restrain the excesses of capitalism, then what
will? Most of the perceived “breakdowns” in the moral order should properly
be attributed to the consumer culture created by corporate America (e.g., “I
have the right to shop ’til I drop; I have the right to pick and choose what
I want – whether it be fashionable sneakers, sexual partners, or even a
different spouse; I have a right to increase my debt for the sake of
immediate gratification; look out for number 1”). But once we’ve diminished
the restraining hand of government, what is to prevent the continuing
fragmentation of society?

This is where family values comes into the picture, is it not? This is where
“blame the poor for their laziness and culture of poverty” comes into the
picture, is it not? Or blame those immigrants? What a convenient way to
divert attention from the material causes of our current problems towards the
“spiritual” causes alone. And in the meantime, the liberal “big” government
solution has been abandoned by both political parties and nothing to keep a
leash on corporate capitalism has replaced it. It wouldn’t be so bad if
Christians declared that a renewal of spirituality and values in corporate
America was needed, but lately the ones that need “converting” (i.e.,
learning the work ethos of discipline, prioritizing, and saving money) seem
to always be the poor and culturally “impoverished.”

So when Christians ally themselves with apologists for the aforementioned
brand of political conservatism, I feel ill at ease, and wonder who will
speak up for those trampled under by global corporate capitalism. Have Ralph
Reed, James Dobson, or Gary Bauer ever voiced these concerns directly or in
addition to family values, abortion, or school vouchers? If I’m not
mistaken, concern for social justice and the material needs of people has had
a long tradition in the Judeo-Christian tradition; I think it dates back to
the Exodus and to Jesus’ concern for the poor and outcast. I pray for these
Christian leaders; I fear, however, that they may be leading us back to the
“fleshpots” of Egypt rather than towards the Land of Milk and Honey; slavery,
with its double-speak about “freedom” rather than the freedom to be “God’s
slaves” in Christ.

Tim

In a message dated 11/8/97 5:08:58 AM, gdot@juno.com wrote:

<>

– ————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com

——————————

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:07:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CAC_Mail: Bill Lann Lee vote

CACers:

FYI, Tim

===============================================================
PRESS RELEASE
===============================================================
For Immediate Release November 6, 1997
For Further Information Bob Sakaniwa, JACL, 202-223-1240
Daphne Kwok, OCA, 202-223-1240
Matthew Finucane, APALA
202-842-1263
Karen Narasaki, NAPALC
202-296-2300

BILL LANN LEE COMMITTEE VOTE POSTPONED

Washington, D.C. — Today, Senator Patrick Leahy (D-VT) requested
that the Senate Judiciary Committee postpone the vote on the
nomination of Bill Lann Lee for the Assistant Attorney General for
Civil Rights. The highly charged debate was heightened by the
attendance of House Members who were in attendance: Rep. Patsy
Mink (D-HI), Rep. John Conyers (D-MI), Rep. John Lewis (D-GA),
Rep. Lucille Roybal-Allard (D-CA), Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), and
others. Also in attendance were Jesse Jackson and Kweisi Mfume,
President of the NAACP.

Matthew Finucane, Executive Director of the Asian Pacific American
Labor Alliance, AFL-CIO, stated, “We believe that those attacking
Bill Lee have distorted his record and that it would be a tragedy
if the Senate turned down this highly qualified Asian Pacific
American who represents the best our community has to offer.”

Karen Narasaki, Executive Director of the National Asian Pacific
American Legal Consortium, said, “Americans should question the
fairness of Senator Hatch’s opposition to Bill Lann Lee since
Senator Hatch had no problems today voting for Seth Waxman’s
nomination, a white male who has been actually carrying out the
Administration’s affirmative action policies, and who will be one
of Bill Lee’s bosses at the U.S. Department of Justice.”

“This has been a difficult year for Asian Americans who have
tried to participate in the political process. Bill Lann Lee’s
nomination has been the one shining light the community has been
looking towards this year. To see his nomination held up or
defeated would send a terrible message to the Asian American
community,” remarked, Robert Sakaniwa, Washington, D.C. Representative
for the Japanese American Citizens League.

OCA Executive Director Daphne Kwok commented, “The Asian Pacific
American community throughout this country has mobilized around
Bill Lee. We want to show Congress that we are not shying away
from the political process by remaining silent on an attack on
a preeminently qualified member of our community. Bill Lee
has been in the mainstream and has practised mainstream civil
rights law and now we want to see him protecting the rights of
ALL Americans.”

– 30 –

The Organization of Chinese Americans, a national civil rights
organization with over 60 chapters and affiliates
across the country, was founded in 1973 to ensure the civil
rights of the Asian Pacific American community.
It maintains its headquarters in Washington, D.C.

Organization of Chinese Americans
1001 Connecticut Avenue, N.W. Suite #707
Washington, D.C. 20036

Tel:(202)223-5500
Fax:(202)296-0540
Voice Mail:(202)223-5523

E-Mail: oca@ari.net
World Wide Web:
http://www2.ari.net/oca

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:58:37 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: make your brief introductions

To assist CACers in getting to know fellow participants, a CAC Who’s Who is
posted at

If you are not listed in the Who’s Who, please post a message to CAC, or send
an email to with a brief personal introduction (about
50 words or so) describing your involvement with the Chinese American
Christian community (and thus your interest in being a part of CAC).

Thank you!

DJ
– —
*

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:17:41 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: make your brief introductions

Terrific job as usual. Thanks, DJ.

Sze-kar

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:18:15 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: Viewpoint Study #77

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:07:28 +0000 “Ray Downen”
writes:
>..better stuff will be written and sung by boomers…raised on
rock and roll sound…

Ray, Try this one next Sunday:)

(From memory, for fun, a few lines of the ‘spiritual’ which Larry
Norman** (re-wrote?) sang, used to open in about 1990 at Macedonia
Baptist in Denver, a huge Black congregation–I hesitate to use the word
‘church’ 🙂 :

<>

** fyi, Larry, for those who don’t know, is the counter-cultural
‘Grandfather’ of the now cultural and sub-cultural ‘sound explosion’ that
Ray’s article mentions; author of lyrics such as:

“Why should the devil have all the good music? ..(I don’t like none of
them funeral marches [at church]– I ain’t dead yet!!)…’Jesus is a Rock
and he rolled my blues away!”

And, he is author of the song ‘God, Part 3’ (about the Holy Spirit, I
guess, which I called in a recent CAC email, ‘the greatest Rock song of
all time’.) Go to http://www.larrynorman.com if you’re interested in locating
the main source of all this raucousness 🙂

Bro G

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:36:05 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: Viewpoint Study #77

On Mon, 10 Nov 97 14:34:00 E leungs
writes:
>
>Brother Gary,
>
> …I’m missing what Brother Ray wrote….

Stephen, et. al. A copy of Viewpoint #77 follows. I assumed, incorrectly,
perhaps, that Ray sends these to CAC. Regardless, he lists a web add,
below, where Viewpoints are accessible.

fyi: Larry has a concert schedule at his web site (www.larrynorman.com)
Maybe he’ll be in your area. You can write to him via the site, too.

(Stephan: Thx for the info about Rich Mullins. Though I’m Protestant, I
teach at a Catholic elem/middle school. Maybe some of Rich’s writing will
‘connect’; I’ll try the site you sent and get back to you.)

Blessings to all!

G

==========

<From Mission Outreach =A0 =A0Viewpoint Bible Study #77
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 in Joplin MO =A0=A0More About Christian Worship =A0
per Viewpoints #11, et al Last revised on 11/3/97

Far More Than A Matter of STYLE =A0

In The Lookout Magazine (Standard Publishing,
Cincinnati) for 10/19/97 is a helpful and interesting
article by Russ Blowers of Indianapolis. In Question
And Answer style, Russ addresses the question —
“Like many other churches, our congregation is being
divided over worship styles. The traditionalists
don’t want anything to change. The contemporaries
want to sell the organ, pull down a screen, and let
guitar players lead. In your estimation, what is the
best kind of service?”

RUSS BLOWERS says: =A0 =A0I think the present controversy
in musical styles is not all bad. Some good things can
come out of conflict. It is possible that the
competing styles will produce a new and better way
for the church to behave when it assembles to worship
God.

Ray comments — Most Christian worship should be done
when the church is NOT assembled. Christians who are
busy at worship of God can put up with considerable
foolishness when the assembly comes, and nowadays
there sure is lots of foolishness in most
congregations. We don’t look to Revelation (which
describes Heaven where it may be that the primary
work of us saints is to praise God) nor to the Old
Testament (where a considerable ritual was put in
place by which men of that day were to express their
adoration to God), but rather we look to admonitions
to CHRISTIANS if we want to see how Christian worship
should be conducted.

The chorus and guitar and synthesizer group is
producing songs that really are addressed to the
Lord. There’s something very moving when we sing to
Him, “You alone are my heart’s desire, and I long to
worship you.” That’s much more intimate than “When we
all get to Heaven” or “O how I love Jesus.”

Ray remarks — Christians I grew up with realized
that prayers are addressed to God, and intimate
private prayer should be kept private. Public prayer
because it was public was much less intimate since the
one praying was wording thoughts it was hoped the
entire group could join in praying. The best hymns of
an earlier day also avoided personal intimacies which
are hardly appropriate in public settings. Intimacies
between husband and wife are not displayed in public.
In my opinion, intimacies between God and man are also
best conducted in private.

A sub-heading on the Lookout page within this
paragraph says, “When we leave church on the Lord’s
Day, we ought to be able to say, ‘I have been in the
presence of God today.'”

Ray says, Every Christian who reads this statement
should feel at least a little sick to their stomach.
If the Christian doesn’t bring God WITH him or her to
the meeting place, if indeed God is waiting in the
church building for us to join Him THERE, the entire
teaching of the New Testament is incorrect and
insufficient. Christians are holy people within whom
God dwells. Church buildings are holy because holy
people meet there and for no other reason.

Russ continues — =A0 =A0 =A0 But then the “contemporary”
brothers and sisters can learn something from the
great hymns of the church. A lot of the gospel
ditties are notoriously weak biblically. As time
passes, better stuff will be written and sung by
boomers and busters raised on rock and roll sound
explosions.

=A0 =A0 =A0 Some folks like to spend the first 30 minutes
of our meetings standing up singing favorite choruses
over and over with their arms up like a little child
reaching for Daddy. Some churches bounce around and
jump up and down and say things like “Amen” and
“Hallelujah.” Other Christians sit like the Sphinx,
in the beauty of holiness and the quietness of
contemplation. Who is to say one is more preferable
to God than the others?

=A0 =A0 =A0 The goal is not to get everybody doing the
same thing. Of course there are non-negotiables like
the Lord’s Supper, and prayer, and the exposition of
the biblical message. But within the boundaries of
Scripture, there’s room for an appealing variety in
worship.

=A0 =A0 =A0 My preferences are pretty inclusive, but I feel
very close to my Lord in a more traditional setting
with organ, choir, and hymnbook. When I’m in England
I always go to Evensong in late afternoon, a liturgy
of Scripture and music in the Anglican church. Formal
church services seem motionless and expressionless to
others, though, who want to participate more actively
with their minds, bodies, and souls. The important
thing is pleasing God.

Ray remarks — Russ is saying that both those who
display much emotional fervor and those who choose
to NOT make a display of their emotions can either
one please God by their participation in public
worship assemblies. He comes down squarely in the
middle by saying that either way may be entirely
acceptable to God. But the Bible still says that the
primary aim of Christian gatherings is to edify the
PEOPLE present, to “recharge our batteries,” and
strengthen us for the work of God which is true
worship for living Christians.

Russ says — =A0 =A0 =A0 I like Psalm 95 because it is a
call and a guide to worship. [Jewish worship, that
is, not Christian worship — says Ray]. It contains
a description of the biblical flow of worship:
— We are to enter his gates, starting our worship
with exuberant and enthusiastic praise (vv. 1-5);
— We are to bow low in silent reverence (vv. 6,7);
and
— We are to hear his voice and then leave to live
obediently before God (vv. 7-11).

Russ continues — PRAISE –=A0God wants us to praise
him. Praise is telling God what he means to us, how
magnificent he is. We can praise him with shouts of
joy (Psalm 66:1, 95:1), by playing a variety of
musical instruments (Psalm 150), by singing hymns
and songs to him and to each other (Ephesians 5:19).
[Ray remarks — Ephesians 5:15-20 is a call for daily
Christian living, for ALWAYS being thankful to God,
for being AT ALL TIMES filled with His Spirit, for
walking every moment WITH God. It is not an admonition
to get together on Sunday mornings in order to praise
God with music and dance for an hour or so instead of
doing the work He calls us to do in His world. The
19th verse is only PART of the picture Paul paints].

C. S. Lewis wrote: “The psalmists in telling everyone
to praise God are doing what all men do when they
speak of what they care about.” “Sing praises to God,
sing praises! Sing praises to our King, sing praises!”
(Psalm 47:6,7). [Ray questions — Were the Psalms of
the Old Testament written to guide Christian worship?
I suggest we best praise God by doing what Jesus calls
for US to do in God’s world, and the more time we
spend in assembled “worship and praise,” the less
time there is in which we can serve God by sharing
with those around us in obedient service and
evangelism.]

WORSHIP — Christian worship, says Russ, is
attributing worth to God. Worship is directed to
him: “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive
glory and honor and power” (Revelation 4:11). In our
worship services we should have a vision of God’s
glory and goodness, and we should bow in wonder and
awe. Some worship services are so busy and loud that
there is little opportunity to “be still and know”
that he is God (Psalm 46:10). In others, we are so
bound by tradition and the printed bulletin that we
often spend the entire hour wishing for a chance to
tell him from the heart, “How great thou art.” When
we leave church on the Lord’s Day, we ought to be
able to say, “I have been in the presence of God
today.” [But the New Testament doesn’t tell us to go
to “church services” to find God. I have to believe
this particular statement is not a totally accurate
representation of true Christian worship, says Ray.
Yet I see the very good thought intended by it. If we
go to a building to meet God, we want to feel when
we’re done that indeed what we did was pleasing to
GOD. Russ has said many very good things in this
study! As surely every reader will see.]

The Israelites knew the Lord God, but their worship
was negated by their disobedience and rebellion in
wanting to give up the promised land in favor of
going back to Egypt (Numbers 14:1-4). Worship is
vain and invalid if it is not followed by our
obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ. So let’s come
before him in a variety of ways, and “worship the
Lord with gladness; come before him with joyful
songs” (Psalm 100:2).

RAY REMARKS — If Christians were called to hold
frequent services for the purpose of worshipping God,
the suggestions made by Russ Blowers would certainly
be helpful in guiding our obedience to such a
command. In fact, we are not once told that
Christians should get together to conduct their
worship of God and His unique Son Jesus Christ. The
purpose for which early Christians met was to
strengthen one another, to share with one another,
to learn from one another and from those inspired to
teach and lead. I believe these still should be the
purposes for which true CHRISTIANS assemble.

Note a responsive comment —

Date sent: Sat, 8 Nov 97 11:18:18 UT
From: “Douglas Willis”
=A0 =A0 =A0Ray, =A0 =A0 =A0Your comments on ‘not being instructed
in the NT to go to church to worship’ were spot on. I
also appreciated the point made by you that intimate
praise is private. If these two underlying truths were
comprehended it would help solve a lot of differences
over worship and music styles.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I have long taught that Jesus made a difference
between ‘Go into your room and shut the door – and
pray’ and His, plus the early churches, public or
semi-private prayers. I have made the challenge
several times (without response) for someone to show
me one passage – in the New Covenant portion of the
bible pertaining to the church on earth – which
commands, sets an apostolic example or instructs in
any way for the church to sing corporately. [Ray’s
note — We sing together, and in harmony, because WE
enjoy it and want to do so. It’s not because we’re
told we should or must do so.]

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Hebrews 2:12, 1 Corinthians 14:15 & 26,
Romans 15:9 and James 5:13 all speak of individual or
solo singing. Colossians 3:16 may be speaking of
private occasions and Ephesians 5:19 of semi-private
occasions – as in one-to-one situations – but both are
instructions for everyday living. Nothing about
corporate worship. Is this not so? Where in Acts 2:42
is the example/instruction for corporate singing in
the NT assembly?

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I am not suggesting that we start another
faction called The Anti-singing Church of Christ’.
But realizing the lack of such evidence does put
music in its proper perspective. Even prior to the
church age, at the institution of the Lord’s Supper,
we read of only one hymn being sung.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 For evangelistic purposes there is obviously a
very good reason to use music appropriately. Although,
in=A0one of our very successful crusades, held in Russia,
we conducted the whole crusade without music of any
kind – not by choice but of necessity.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Please indicate if my exegesis is offbeat.
=A0– =A0Doug Willis Please send e-mail comments to Ray.

=A0 =A0 With this further response

Date sent: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 16:39:11 -0800
To: “Douglas Willis” and to Ray
From: Charles Dailey

Doug, =A0 =A0 All of your statements seem right to me. A
number of evangelicals are migrating to the Orthodox
Church because of the fine worship experience. But a
“worship experience” as such (sacrifice, mystery,
rhythm) has no counterpart in the New Covenant
Scriptures. — Charles Dailey –
=A0 =A0 =A0 Please send comments to Ray.

from Ray Downen respectfully on this day of the Lord.
417/782-0814 2228 Porter Joplin Mission Outreach.
Mail address is P O Box 1065 Joplin MO 64802-1065.
Internet home page addr =3D http://www.ipa.net/~outreach
>>

——————————

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 01:39:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: School Choice

J.:

Thanks for the web page address for FRC. I’ve been looking at it with great
interest. I was not permitted to access the second web page address,
however.

I found the article “With Liberty & Justice for All: Refining the
Educational Choice Debate” intriguing. FRC seems to be advocating a number
of contradictory proposals:

1. They want school choice on the basis of a libertarian view (where gov’t
doesn’t interfere with the rights of parents and families to control their
children’s education), but reject the libertarian argument when it comes to
abortion (I’m not suggesting that the pro-choice abortion position is
correct, merely that it is inconsistant to want freedom of choice in one
arena without allowing for it in another; there is no clear criteria to
advocate choice in education but not in abortion).
2. They want to reduce and put caps on welfare benefits to the poor, yet
reject means-tested education vouchers in order to provide them to middle
class families. Gov’t handouts creates a culture of dependency among the
underclass, they argue, but doesn’t do the same for middle-class recepients,
apparently.
3. They want to introduce “competitiveness” in schooling (and make the
unfortunate assumption that “competitiveness” will produce students of
character), yet fail to recognize that preparing children to conform to the
“marketplace” mentality will undermine the very family values they claim to
support.
4. They argue that school choice allows for diversity, while the “common
school” is a means of homogenizing American culture; however, what is FRC’s
view on affirmative action (I couldn’t find anything info about it)? Would
they make the diversity argument to support affirmative action? Also, would
FRC sanction vouchers for, say, a feminist private school? a gay/lesbian
private school? How far would they press the “freedom of choice” argument?

I agree with you that most families now see private schools as better options
than public schools. But this may be a perception fostered by the recent
hype about public education “failure.” More cynically, it may be the result
of years of projecting the middle-class as the paragon of American virtue,
thus, creating class envy on the part of the poor.

But of greatest concern for me is the short-sighted selfishness that FRC’s
privatization agenda engenders. The breakdown of “social responsibility” in
public life today will have terrible consequences for our children when they
grow up. I can imagine what the school choice scenario will do to our kids:
“son, daughter, we worked hard to have the freedom to put you in the best
school possible [subtext: hey, that’s what life is about – getting into the
best rated schools, getting the highest grades, the highest paying jobs,
etc., etc. why go into ministry? why care about the poor? why care about
anyone else but numero uno?].

Again, thanks for providing access to FRC. It certainly provides more for me
to chew on! Blessings!

Tim Tseng
In a message dated 11/7/97 9:20:46 PM, jtc10@JUNO.COM wrote:

<<To read what FRC believes about school choice, please go to their article
entitled: "With Liberty & Justice for All: Refining the Educational Choice
Debate" at the web page:

For a more general policy position on: “How does FRC believe we can improve
the public education system in America?” you can read about their stance at:
>>

– ————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com

——————————

From: Rlfong@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 01:51:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CAC_Mail: HUMOR – It’s all a matter of cultural perspective

A Briton, a Frenchman and a Russian are viewing a painting
of Adam and Eve frolicking in the Garden of Eden.

“Look at their reserve, their calm,” muses the Brit. “They must
be British.”

“Nonsense,” the Frenchman disagrees. “They’re naked, and
so beautiful. Clearly, they are French.”

“No clothes, no shelter,” the Russian points out, “they have
only an apple to eat, and they’re being told this is paradise.
They are Russian.”

——————————

From: Mary Lauchli
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:23:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CAC_Mail: China

Dear friends,

I read recently the Graham press release about Dr. Graham’s meeting with
President Jiang and also the interview of the anonymous Chinese official
about the persecution of Christians.

I agree that Chinese officials need to be befriended by Christians. They
need to see the gospel in the lives of Christians. At the same time,
Christians and others need to address the injustices perpetrated by the
Chinese government. No human government should trample on the ability of
its citizens to speak and worship freely. And as Christians, we should
not be afraid to speak the truth in love.

The press release by Dr. Graham’s organization failed to mention the real
problem of persecution and oppression in China. In fact, its euphemistic
language could have been written by the Chinese government. I hope Dr.
Graham’s personal conversation was more penetrating.

The interview with the Chinese official was more candid. It showed that
we still have an obligation to be advocates for political and
institutional change.

I had the opportunity to join others who demonstrated when President Jiang
visited Los Angeles. I was particularly touched by the plight of the
Tibetans. They need to know that we are standing with them.

In Christ,

Mary Szto Lauchli
Professor, Chinese Law

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:50:43 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: New Book: Bible in Modern China

Dear CACers:

I would like to invite you to a celebration of the publication of the
book edited by Irene Eber, Sze-kar Wan, & Knut Walf, _Bible in Modern
China_ (Sankt Augustin: Monamenta Serica, 1998), at the Society of
Biblical Literature Ethnic Chinese Biblical Colloquium Fall Meeting:

7 pm, Monday, 24 November 1997
San Francisco Hilton: Union Square-11
333 O’Farrell St.

The book is dedicated to the memory of Bishop Samuel Isaac Joseph
Schereschewsky (1831-1906), formerly Bishop of Shanghai and one of the
first to translate the Bible from Hebrew to northern colloquial Chinese,
and we will present the book to his grandson, Mr. Benjamin Sherry. Come
hear the life story of the great Bishop from those close to him and
celebrate with us. A reception will follow the book presentation and
give ample opportunities for informal conversation.

Afterwards, around 7.30 pm, you are also welcome to stay for a panel
discussion of the newly published commentary on Hosea in the New
Interpreter’s Bible by a leading member of the biblical guild and one of
our own, Dr. Gale Yee. It promises to be a stimulating evening.

Do write me if you have questions.

Very Warmly,
Sze-kar

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:34:20 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Surgeon General Nominee on Hold

Dear CACers:

FYI, J. Chang
– ——————
Family News in Focus
News from November 10, 1997

“Surgeon General Nominee on Hold” by Martha Kleder, staff writer

The nomination of Dr. David Satcher as U.S. Surgeon General has hit a
snag as physicians question his recent remarks backing partial-birth
abortion.
According to Gene Tarne with Physicians Ad Hoc Coalition for Truth,
“Clearly
from a medical perspective his remarks caused concern, because our
organization is dedicated to bringing out the medical facts regarding
partial-
birth abortion, and what he is saying goes against those medical facts.

Dr. David Stevens with the Christian Medical and Dental Society says,
“The
surgeon general functions as a public health voice and leads the country
to
changing its behavior.” He says Dr. Satcher could mismanage significant
moral issues. “The greatest issues in medicine today have do with
cloning,
abortion and physician-assisted suicide,” Stevens says.

Gary Bauer, president of the Family Research Council, says U.S. senators
should oppose Dr. Satcher’s nomination. “If a senator was against slavery
in 1850 and then voted to confirm a slavery advocate, we would all know
he was not serious about slavery,” Bauer explains. “The same goes with
the
sanctity of human life.” Bauer says Satcher’s confirmation is one of the
important pro-life votes of this session.

Copyright & copy; 1997 Focus on the Family.
All rights reserved. International copyright secured.

——————————

From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:04:17 EST
Subject: [none]

Ray:

Absolultely. Yes, if it can be useful, you may copy any of my comments.
I do not need to check to see that it is acceptable – unless you make
me responsible for them.

I am quite computer challenged. I am not on the internet and do not even
know how hard or easy it is to do so. And if I got on, I don’t have any
idea as to how to get around on it. I think it is mostly fear from
ignorance. Anyway, if you could and would e-mail study #37 and #79 and
“Who Should We Act Like” to me, it would be very much appreciated.

I was encouraged by your comment. Thanks!! May God keep us in His
truth.

Because of His grace,

Ben_Mel@juno.com

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:21:46 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: China Embassy Contacts

Dear CACers:

In the spirit of “a reasoned approach” regarding dialogue with China
on the issue of human rights abuses, here are some names of
contacts within the Chinese Embassy in Washington, DC.

Please feel free to pray for them & to share your thoughts with them
by letter/phone/fax/email etc.

In Him,
J. Chang
– ————–

Ambassador Li Daoyu
Chinese Ambassador to the United States
Chinese Embassy
2300 Connecticut Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20008
Tel: (202) 328-2500 Fax: (202) 588-0032
Email at web site: webmaster@china-embassy.org

(Mr. Zhou Wenzhong: Minister of the Embassy of the People’s Republic of
China)

Political Affairs Office
Minister Counselor Lu Shumin
Tel: (202) 328-2507 Fax: (202) 745-7473

Congressional Liaison Office
Minister Counselor Shao Wenguang
Tel: (202) 328-2509 Fax: (202) 234-4055

Consular Affairs Office
Counselor & Consul General Liao Zhihong
Tel: (202) 328-2587 Fax: (202) 588-0046

Press Office
Counselor Yu Shuning
Tel: (202) 328-2511 Fax: (202) 588-0032

Defense Attache Office
Major General Gong Xianfu
Tel: (202) 328-2540 Fax: (202) 667-4032

Commercial Affairs Office [Address (1)]
Minister Counselor Shi Jianxin
Tel: (202) 625-3380 Fax: (202) 337-5845

Economic Affairs Office
Counselor Shen Longhai
Tel: (202) 328-2528 Fax: (202) 234-8629

Cultural Affairs Office
Minister Counselor Li Gang
Tel: (202) 328-2510 Fax: (202) 234-3715

Science & Technology Office
Minister Counselor Liu Zhaodong
Tel: (202) 328-2530 Fax: (202) 265-7523

Education Affairs Office [Address (2)]
Minister Counselor Jiang Miaorui
Tel: (202) 885-0731 Fax: (202) 234-2582

[Address (1)]: 2133 Wisconsin Avenue N.W., Washington, D.C. 20007
[Address (2)]: 2712 Porter Street N.W., Washington, D.C. 20008

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:54:00 EST
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: China

On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:23:15 -0800 (PST) Mary Lauchli
writes:
>..I hope Dr. Graham’s personal conversation was more penetrating..
>
>Mary Szto Lauchli
>Professor, Chinese Law
>

Dear Mary, I hope this, too. But Christian leaders who decide to
co-operate with BOTH the kingdom of God AND the (capitalistic) system, do
appear to impale themselves on the horns of a dilemma, i.e. “When to
live/speak for the King (in love, of course, unless the speaker is
Luther-like 🙂 vs. When to live/speak for ‘my system'” ?

IMHO, Jesus taught quite clearly that the kingdom of God and ‘the system’
are opposed. In John’s writing they are as different as night and day.
Conversion, in Colossians 1:13, is predicated on being ‘transferred’ from
darkness to light. The King, who demonstrated daily unto death his
teaching: ‘you cannot serve both God and the World’, He who never
changes. If so, then must not our words/lives CONSTANTLY point to Him and
His words? Tim might ask (me): Does this mean “to criticize ‘the system'”
is approved–I’m thinking about this…and an illustration about Jesus’
‘dilemma’ upon US:

(A close friend, an African Brother, teaches this piece of (esoteric)
wisdom, ff. Maybe you know the answer, Mary. Let’s let CAC’rs chew on it,
too. I promise to send the answer to everybody later if it goes unsolved
for long; I kinda doubt it will 🙂

“A person is traveling the road to Happiness when he comes to a fork. At
this fork in the road are two men, one on each trail. One of these men
always tells the Truth, the other man always Lies. If given (only) ONE
question, to ask them both (at once or individually), What question could
the traveler ask in order to continue on the trail to Happiness?”

Manna for thought. And greetings and love to Dr. Graham if he is reading.
I thank you for leading (a sin battered) Grandpa Andrew Ottoson to Christ
at ripe age of 76; and, my wife and son (both relatively unbattered) to
Him in their early years. The son, also named Andrew, at age 7, walked
from the top rows of Mile High Stadium to visit with Christ via one of
your counselors…

God bless you (all),

Gary Ottoson

——————————

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:45:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CAC_Mail: Research question

Dear CACers:

I’m looking for Rev. Sen Wong’s (Chinese Bible Church of Oakland?) phone
number and address. During the summer of 1996, my research associate
interviewed him via videotape. I’d like to send him a copy of that interview
but have lost track of him. Thanks!

Tim Tseng

– ————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com
– ————————————————————

——————————

From: RevCow@aol.com
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 01:36:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CAC_Mail: Fun & Games

>”A person is traveling the road to Happiness when he comes to a fork. At
>this fork in the road are two men, one on each trail. One of these men
>always tells the Truth, the other man always Lies. If given (only) ONE
>question, to ask them both (at once or individually), What question could
>the traveler ask in order to continue on the trail to Happiness?”

Ask just one man (either) one question:
“Will the other man tell me if the right trail leads to Happiness?”
If his answer is yes, take the left.
If his answer is no, take the right.

So does that mean we’re supposed to do the opposite of what everyone says
everyone else is telling us to do? 😛

Ted

Rev. Theodore J. Kau
Harvest San Gabriel Valley

“Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their
only Law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the
precepts there exhibited…What a paradise would this region be!”
– –John Adams, 1756
America’s Second President

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:05:32 EST
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Fun & Games

Ted,

Re: “Will the other man tell me if the right trail leads to Happiness?”

This is a good guess, perhaps, yet not the solution.

G

=====

On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 01:36:40 -0500 (EST) RevCow@aol.com writes:
>>”A person is traveling the road to Happiness when he comes to a fork.
>>At this fork in the road are two men, one on each trail. One of these
men
>>always tells the Truth, the other man always Lies. If given (only)
>>ONE question, to ask them both (at once or individually), What question

>>could the traveler ask in order to continue on the trail to Happiness?”
>
>Ask just one man (either) one question:
> “Will the other man tell me if the right trail leads to Happiness?”
>If his answer is yes, take the left.
>If his answer is no, take the right…

——————————

From: RevCow@aol.com
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:24:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CAC_Mail: Fun & Games, again

Hello.

Perhaps I should have worded it more clearly:
Ask just one man one question:
“Will the other man tell me if the trail ON THE RIGHT leads to Happiness?”
If his answer is yes, take the left.
If his answer is no, take the right…

This is not a guess. Try it. It works. It’s from my philosophy class
back in college. The original challenge is to ask only one man one
question. Enjoy.

Btw, I apologize for wasting CAC bandwidth.

Ted

>Ted,
>
>Re: “Will the other man tell me if the right trail leads to Happiness?”
>
>This is a good guess, perhaps, yet not the solution.
>
>G

Rev. Ted Kau
Harvest San Gabriel Valley

When all is said and done, as a rule,
more is said than done.
– –Lou Holtz

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:38:31 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Fun & Games

Ted,

Ask one of the men, “Are you a man?” The one who denies he is a man
is on the wrong road to Happiness.

did I get it?

bill leong

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:46:54 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Fun & Games, again

On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:24:18 -0500 (EST) RevCow@aol.com writes:
>..Ask just one man one question:
>…
>If his answer is yes, take the left.
>If his answer is no, take the right

Ted,

This is risky for two reasons: 1) One question may be asked to BOTH men.
Why would you choose to ask ‘one question to one man’? 2) There was/is no
guarantee you’d receive a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer.

G

——————————

From: RevCow@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:59:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CAC_Mail: Fun & Games, RIP

It’s this trail puzzle thing again. Please delete if not interested.

G,

Have you tried the solution I offered? It works.

>1) One question may be asked to BOTH men.
>Why would you choose to ask ‘one question to one man’?
Because it is a more elegant solution, and it works. You don’t need to
ask both men.

I looked it up, it’s from my logic and algorithms class. It’s not my
solution, it’s from a textbook.

The reason one man is asked about the other is that this CANCELS out the
uncertainty of which one is lying. One of them definitely is lying, so
the answer must be a lie. Thus, you take the opposite route.

Your original problem stated that:
>One of these men
>always tells the Truth, the other man always Lies.

Now you say:
>2) There was/is no
>guarantee you’d receive a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer.
If one always tells the truth, and one always lies, it’s proper to assume
that the person asking would be guaranteed at least a ‘yes’ or ‘no’
answer from each man. If not, then the rules are changing as we play.
If there’s no guarantee for a ‘yes’/’no’ answer, then any other answer
can’t be guaranteed either.

G, I suggest that if you have any more doubts about this solution that we
e-mail in private. This puzzle has little, if anything, to do about
Chinese America or churches.

If you’ve read this far, I hope you’re enjoying this. 😛

Ted

Rev. Ted Kau
Harvest San Gabriel Valley

When all is said and done, as a rule,
more is said than done.
– –Lou Holtz

——————————

From: “Peter P. Huang”
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 08:39:29 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Fun & Games, RIP

hey you all,

>Your original problem stated that:
>>One of these men
>>always tells the Truth, the other man always Lies.

as the infamous contemporary philosopher Fox Moulder would say,

“All lies lead to the truth.”

in another season of his life, he said, “The Truth is out there.”

long live the X-Files,

Peter Huang 😉

– ————–
Peter P. Huang
petie@ix.netcom.com
home: (310)530-8081 fax: (310)530-8802
work: (626)280-0477 work email: phuang@ebc1.mhs.compuserve.com

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:02:06 EST
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Fun & Games, RIP

Ted, What solution are you comparing to? G

On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:59:08 -0500 (EST) RevCow@aol.com writes:

>>Why would you choose to ask ‘one question to one man’?
>Because it is a more elegant solution, <—than what?

——————————

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 00:12:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CAC_Mail: Bill Lann Lee update

CACers:

An update about the pending Bill Lann Lee nomination. – Tim

November 13, 1997
Contact: Karen Narasaki (NAPALC), 202-296-2300
Daphne Kwok (OCA), 202-223-5500
Bob Sakaniwa (JACL), 202-223-1240
Matthew Finucane (APALA), 202-842-1263

ASIAN AMERICANS SAY FIGHT FOR BILL LEE HAS JUST BEGUN

Washington, D.C., Nov. 13– Responding to procedural
moves today in the Senate Judiciary Committee that will
delay Senate action on the Bill Lann Lee nomination until next
year, a coalition of national Asian Pacific American organizations
announced that they would now step up their efforts and wage an
unprecedented fight for Bill Lann Lee's nomination.

"The fight for Bill Lee's nomination has just begun," said
Matthew Finucane, Executive Director of the Asian Pacific
American Labor Alliance, AFL-CIO. "In the coming months the
Asian Pacific American community will come together and mobilize
at the grass roots to support Bill Lee at a level never before
seen in Asian Pacific American history."

"Senator Hatch announced that he was drawing the line with
this nomination," said Karen Narasaki, Executive Director of the
National Asian Pacific American Legal Consortium. "What the far
right really did was cross the line by unfairly attacking Bill Lee
for positions he has never taken, and using this outstanding Asian
Pacific American candidate as a political tool to attack the
nation's civil rights agenda. We will work with the entire civil
rights community to ensure that the full Senate treats this
nomination fairly."

"Bill Lee is one of the best civil rights lawyers in the
country, and he has been shabbily treated by Republican members
of the Judiciary Committee, with the brave exception of Arlen
Specter of Pennsylvania" added Daphne Kwok, Executive Director
of the Organization of Chinese Americans. "This is an insult to
all Americans who believe in civil rights, and it is an insult to
the Asian Pacific American community. We will respond by making
our voices heard, and we ask every Asian Pacific American to use
the Congressional recess to contact their elected representatives
and press for this nomination."

Robert Sakaniwa, Executive Director of the Japanese American
Citizens League, said that the delay in the Bill Lee nomination
would probably solidify calls in the Asian Pacific American
community for the first national network of Asian Pacific
Americans. "By the end of November, I believe there will be a
new national network of Asian Pacific American leaders and groups,
and that the Bill Lee nomination will be at the very top of the
network's new agenda. We must win this nomination, for our
country, for our community, and for our children."

-30-

Organization of Chinese Americans
1001 Connecticut Avenue, N.W. Suite #707
Washington, D.C. 20036

Tel:(202)223-5500
Fax:(202)296-0540
Voice Mail:(202)223-5523

E-Mail: oca@ari.net
World Wide Web: http://www2.ari.net/oca

——————————

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 00:31:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CAC_Mail: Thanks for the help!

Dear CACers:

Thank you for everyone's help in locating Rev. Sen Wong! God bless. – Tim

– ————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 01:27:32 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Bill Lee

Dear CACers:

I wonder how CACers feel about the stalled nomination of Bill Lee.

Personally, I am very disappointed and I thought the tactics used to
sabatage his hearing were less than noble. I also wonder to what extent
partisan politics or racism (or both) played a part. Maybe I am
paranoid.

Also, could someone summarize for us or direct us to a webpage on what
has happened so far?

Warmly,
Sze-kar

——————————

From: “Jennifer Lin”
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:36:58 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Bill Lee: Sign on

if any of ya’ll are involved in APA organizations who would like to express
support for Bill Lan Lee, i encourage ya’ll to do so. where does “CAC” stand?
should we discuss whether we have “consensus”? if so, we CAN do something about
it!

jennifer

>FROM JACL, OCA, APALA, AND NAPALC
REQUEST FOR ASIAN PACIFIC AMERICAN SIGN-ONS
JOINT STATEMENT OF SUPPORT FOR BILL LANN LEE
NOVEMBER 14, 1997

Dear Friends,

Over 30 Asian Pacific American organizations and 50
individuals recently placed a prominent ad in Roll Call newspaper
announcing their support for Bill Lee. Since Congress has gone
home without voting on the matter, the battle will continue over
the next few months and grass roots is extremely important. To
help in our grass roots effort, we would like to continue
compiling a list of Asian Pacific American organizations and APA
leaders who support Bill Lee. We would like this list to be as
broad and as bipartisan as possible, as Senator Hatch and the far
right are already trying to split the Asian American community
on the nomination. Please sign on and encourage others to sign
on. Groups and individuals wishing to sign on to the Joint
Statement of Support (see below) should send a fax stating so
on their letterhead to: Matthew Finucane, Executive Director,
Asian Pacific American Labor Alliance, AFL-CIO, FAX 202-842-1462.
The fax should state clearly whether you are signing on as an
individual, or an organization, or both. We regret that we
cannot do this by e-mail since we need to confirm the
authenticity of sign-ons.

Here is the Joint Statement of Support for Bill Lee, and a
list of current signers.

“The Asian Pacific American Urges the Senate to Confirm
Bill Lann Lee”

“Bill Lann Lee, the son of poor Chinese American
immigrants, excelled in the New York public schools, attended
Columbia Law school, and then went on to a distinguished career
at the NAACP Legal Defense Fund and Education Fund in Los
Angeles. He is a brilliant civil rights lawyer who has worked
hard for the rights of all those who face discrimination,
whether they are white, black, Latino, Asian or any other race
or ethnicity. Even those who have opposed him in litigation
have applauded his work, including Mayor Richard Riordan of
Los Angeles who has described him as a “superbly qualified
candidate” for Assistant Attorney General who “practiced
mainstream civil rights law,” does not believe in quotas” and
“has pursued flexible and reasonable remedies that in each case
were approved by a court.”

“Mr. Lee was warmly introduced and endorsed by Senator
Alfonse D’Amato at his confirmation hearing, and he has the
support of the Congressional Black, Hispanic, and Asian American
caucuses. Leading newspapers have called upon the Senate to
immediately approve this nomination, including the New York Times,
the Washington Post, and the Los Angeles Times. His nomination to
the highest civil rights position in the nation is extremely
important to the Asian Pacific American community and to all who
believe in civil rights. We call upon the U.S. Senate to confirm
this nomination.”

Current signers

Groups

Advocates for the Rights of Korean Americans
Asian American Association
Asian American Institute
Asian American Business Development Center
Asian American Center for Justice
Asian American Commerce Group
Asian American Community Services
Asian American Legal Defense and Education Fund
Asian Association of Utah
Asian Cultural Society of Ohio
Asian Pacific American Heritage Council
Asian Pacific American Labor Alliance, AFL-CIO
Asian Pacific American Legal Center of Southern California
Asian Pacific American Network in Agriculture
Asian Pacific Policy and Planning Council
Asian Pacific eXchange
Asian Professional Association of Ohio
Association of Philippine American Physicians
Chinese Engineers and Scientists Society of Utah
Chinese American Development Corporation (Chicago)
Chinatown Chamber of Commerce (Chicago)
Chinese for Affirmative Action
Chinese American Citizens Alliance
Chinese American Service League
Columbus Chinese School
Committee of 100
Filipino American Political Action
Filipino American Student Association
Filipino Association of Toledo
Filipino Civil Rights Advocates
India Abroad Center for Political Awareness
Japanese American Citizens League
Korean American Coalition
Leadership Education for Asian Pacifics
National Asian Pacific American Bar Association
National Asian Pacific American Legal Consortium
National Association of Korean Americans
National Federation of Filipino American Associations
National Korean American Service and Education Consortium
Organization of Chinese Americans
Philippine American Heritage Federation
Philippine American Society of Ohio

Individuals Supporting the Statement

Vida Benavides
Gloria Caoile
Shu-Ping Chan
Wai-Ping Chan
Hon. Lily Lee Chen
S. Andrew Chen, Ph.D.
Dr. Enrique dela Cruz
Stan Egi
Matthew Finucane
Guy Fujimura
Warren T. Furutani
Dolly M. Gee
Kaying Hang
Amy Hill
Grace B. Hou
Norman Hui, D.D.S.
David Henry Hwang
Ann (Lata) Kalayil
Helen Kawagoe
John H. Kim, Esq.
George Koo
Daphne Kwok
Corky Lee
Jin Sook Lee
Jeannette M. Lim
Karen Lin, Esq.
Michael Lin
Franklin Y. Liu
Hon. Norman Y. Mineta
Debasish Mishra
Jose M. Montana, Jr.
Albert Muratsuchi
Don T. Nakanishi
Karen Narasaki
Phil Tajitsu Nash
George M. Ong
Ron Osajima
Courtni Pugh
Katie Quan
Robert Sakaniwa
Joanna Su
George Takei
Austin P. Tao
Lauren Tom
Tamlyn Tomita
Mabel Teng
Kung-Lee Wang
Prof. Paul Y. Watanabe
Ming-Na Wen
Kent Wong
Lawrence Wong
Hon. S. B. Woo
Hon. Michael Woo
Herbert Yamanishi
John C. Yang
Kathleen Yasuda
Eric Michael Zee

Organization of Chinese Americans
1001 Connecticut Avenue, N.W. Suite #707
Washington, D.C. 20036

Tel:(202)223-5500
Fax:(202)296-0540
Voice Mail:(202)223-5523

E-Mail: oca@ari.net
World Wide Web: http://www2.ari.net/oca

– —End of forwarded mail from oca@ari.net

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:45:37 -0700
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: Please, RIP

On Sat, 15 Nov 1997 00:29:31 -0500 (EST) RevCow@aol.com writes:
>
>Hello G,
>
>As per my original request, could we continue this privately instead
>of involving others?

Ted, An attorney has also advised me not to engage you at this time
without a witness (CAC). You also chose to engage this issue in public:

>>>>Why would you choose to ask ‘one question to one man’?
>>>Because it is a more elegant solution, Than a solution requiring a question be asked twice. (11/15)

No such requirement was made. This response, yours I presume, indicates
the character of a reasoning heart: It is ‘truth’ twisted. Please
(re-)consider your approach to me in light of the following statement,
esp in relationship to the well-being of beloved Chinese people:

“Yes, I agree that America is a fine country – one that I love and want
to participate in – but the TRUTH must be heard before healing and
reconciliation and justice can occur. ” –Tim Tseng, in an open letter
to CAC, 11/8/97

G

“Do you believe [God]? then you will speak boldly. Do you speak boldly?
then you must suffer. Do you suffer? then you will be comforted. For
faith, the confession thereof, and the cross, follow one upon another.
– –Dr. M. Luther, _Table Talk_ #266

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:14:55 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Bill Lee

Dear Richard:

Thanks for the recommendation. The Post articles are terrific!

Sze-kar

Richard L Wong wrote:
>
> Check out the Washington Post’s website: http://www.washingtonpost.com for a
> couple of articles and editorials regarding the Lee nomination.

——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:40:29 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Bill Lee

I think what happened to him was rotten and a shame. Sounds like he was
truly well-qualified. this may come back to haunt the Repub’s later on.
imho: Part of me thinks your paranoia is justified.

ken fong.

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:30:39 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Articles on Bill Lee

I’ve now downloaded and read 13 articles from the Washington Post
(www.washingtonpost.com) and the New York Times (www.nytimes.com).
Racism is alleged in a minority of articles (e.g., Mary McGrory, Post,
13 Nov, directed against Hatch) and explicitly discounted in one
(Editorial[?], Post, 10 Nov). Most think Hatch is not fair: Nicholas
Lemann even thinks Hatch attacks Lee for a position (against 1996 CA
Prop 209) that Lee himself has dismissed, something Hatch himself may
not even be aware of (Post, 12 Nov). Since I don’t know the cases to
which Lemann refers, I can’t say if it’s fair.

Dorothy Gilliam cites, approvingly, the opinion of Theodore Hsien Wang
and Frank H. Wu (respectively, SF civil rights attorney and Howard Univ.
law prof.) that Asian Americans remain “at a significant disadvantage”
compared with white Americans, suffering the same limitations because of
a “glass ceiling” as other minorities. Gilliam then calls on all Asian
Americans and “the entire civil rights community [to come] to the
defense of Lee. If this heightened recognition of the commonality of
interest of people of color remains, Lee, even if he is defeated, will
have triumphed.”

The 14 Nov NY Times editorial strongly denounces the stall: “Republicans
on the Senate Judiciary Committee acted with contempt for civil rights
and the rights of Senate colleagues yesterday when they refused to clear
President Clinton’s nominee for the top civil rights job in the Justice
Department.” The author blames Trent Lott, the Senate majority leader,
for a large-scale machination “of blocking nominees for judgeships,
sub-cabinet posts and ambassadors” at the insistence of “extreme
conservative groups.” Accordingly, the “assault” on Lee is a part of
this plan.

Only one author (of the 13 I read) defends the block. Michael Kelly, of
National Journal, thinks it’s legitimate for a president to nominate
someone who shares his views on affirmative action, and he agrees that
Lee is an “honorable” nominee. But then, Kelly goes on to side with
“conservatives [who] argue that he could not be trusted to serve as a
fair and impartial enforcer, that he would likely interpret the court’s
rulings as narrowly as possible, seeking to protect even programs that
clearly violate the courts’ definition of what constitutes
constitutionality. This is DIFFERENT from saying that Lee is for or
against affirmative action…” (Post, 13 Nov; my emphasis).

What Kelly seems to be saying is that Lee’s problem is not his position
on affirmative action but that his views might make him susceptible to
misinterpreting the law. Maybe it’s bc I am a layperson, I can’t figure
out Kelly’s “difference” here. First all, that does not seem to be the
substance of Hatch’s (and other Republicans’) objections to Lee’s
nomination. Secondly, what Lee did before, as a civil rights advocate
for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, was in fact to uphold the then-legal
and then-constitutional affirmative action. There has never been any
question of Lee’s ever having stepped outside the bounds of law to
pursue his narrow interests. If this is the case, what could the
“conservatives” be objecting to if not in fact his views on affirmative
actions, which have become unfashionable only because laws and popular
sentiments have changed? But this is precisely what Kelly insists NOT
to be the case. Maybe others better schooled in this sort of things can
help me out.

Trying to make sense of it all,
Sze-kar

——————————

demographics of Chinese Christians; ministries going beyond Chinese

To: cac@emwave.net

——————————

From: “GE Liang”
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 10:51:52 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Affirmative Action

CACers,

>But, if there are bright ideas that folks have or have come
>across, why not share them or point us to objective forums where they are
>being aired?

Here are a few interesting locations on the WWW re: AA:
http://humanitas.ucsb.edu/projects/aa/aa.html
http://www.netdoor.com/com/rronline/reconciler/spr96/aadebate.html
http://www.netdoor.com/com/rronline/tb21feb96.html

Here’s a late tidbit re: Thanksgiving from the BIBLE list at UVA:
– —

My local newspaper reprinted the following in today¹s issue. It is too powerful not
to pass it on. Perhaps a reading of it around your tables tomorrow would
be appropriate.

Happy a blessed and thankful Thanksgiving everyone!

Abraham Lincoln¹s 1863 Thanksgiving Proclamation:

³It is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their dependence upon
the overruling power of God; to confess their sins and transgressions in
humble sorrow, yet, with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to
mercy and pardon; and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy
Scripture and proven by all history, that those nations are blessed whose
God is the Lord.
³We know that by His divine law, nations, like individuals, are subjected
to punishments and chastisements in this world. May we not justly fear that
the awful calamity of civil war which now desolates the land may be a punishment

inflicted upon us for our presumptuous sins, to the needful end of our national
reformation as a whole people?
³We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of heaven; we have
been preserved these many years in peace and prosperity; we have grown in
numbers, wealth and power as no other nation has ever grown.
³But we have forgotten God.
³We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace and multiplied
and enriched and strengthened us, and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness

of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom
and virtue of our own.
³Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to
feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to
the God that made us.
³It has seemed to me fit and proper that God should be solemnly, reverently
and gratefully acknowledged, as with one heart and one voice, by the whole
American people. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of
the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning
in foreign lands, to set apart the observe the last Thursday of November
as a day of Thanksgiving and praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth
in the heavens.
²A. Lincoln
October 3, 1863

Dave Cook
Scripture Song Source
http://place2b.org/scrpsngsrc/

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:34:15 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: about CAC

FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions about CAC

Updated: 1 Dec 97

[This is a monthly posting; * marks What’s New]

Q: How do you post a message to the CAC forum?

A: Send an email message to “cac@emwave.net” [without quotes], and a
copy of your message will be sent to all CAC subscribers.

Q: How do you unsubscribe (stop receiving CAC messages)?

A: Send an email message to “majordomo@emwave.net” and on the first line
of the message body, write “unsubscribe cac” [without quotes].

Q: How do you subscribe to CAC (start receiving CAC messages)?

A: Send an email message to “majordomo@emwave.net” and on the first line
of the message body, write “subscribe cac” [without quotes]. You’ll
receive a confirmation/ welcome message to say you’re a new subscriber.

Q: How do you receive the CAC Digest version? What is a digest?

A: Send an email message to “majordomo@emwave.net” and on the first line
of the message body, write “subscribe cac-digest” [without quotes]. A
digest version will compile all CAC postings in one big email message
that is sent to you about once a week, whenever the collected postings
reach 50k in size. Some people prefer this format because mailings are
less frequent.

Q: Is there an archive of old CAC messages?

A: There is an archive of selected CAC messages and posted articles at
the CAC web page

Q: I’m only interested in some of the topics. What can I do?

A: As the list has grown, almost quadrupled in size within the past
year, there has been an increasing diversity of discussions and
interests. We encourage you to engage in discussion of issues relevant
to Chinese American Christians; please refrain from file attachments in
order to conserve bandwidth. Short informational articles are okay; if
there is a lengthy article or essay you’d like to share, a short
announcement or reference to the web site can be posted.

Q: What is this CAC mailing list?

A: The CAC Forum is an informal “mailing list” online discussion for
Chinese American Christians, where we discuss many issues related to
(but not limited to) Chinese American Christians, including campus
ministry and ethnic church issues, as well as some political issues
concerning Asian Americans. As an informal forum, you may also share
ministry opportunities and prayer requests accordingly.

Q: What does CAC stand for?

A: CAC is Chinese American Christians. Although the scope of discussions
often discuss Asian American issues and sometimes generic topics, the
name stuck because of its origin.

Q: How many subscribers are there on CAC?

A: Currently we have more than 180 ministry leaders and laypersons.
Please forward this message to others who may be interested in the CAC
forum.

Q: How does a “mailing list” work?

A: CAC is run by an automated computer program, called a “listserver”,
which send copies of email messages to all CAC subscribers. Currently
the listserver is undergoing some technical transition, but that should
be transparent to you.

Q: When was CAC started and automated?

A: The list was started in 1995 by Drs. Timothy Tseng and Sze-Kar Wan.
CAC used to be a manually propagated carbon copy email, but was
automated in summer of 1996. We hope to bring Chinese American
Christians together using the latest technology so that we can share our
ideas and resources on furthering the cause of the Christ.

Q: Is there a moderator for CAC?

A: DJ Chuang is the list manager; there is no
moderator for the ongoing discussions.

– —
*

——————————

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:39:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Bill Lann Lee

Stephen:

I appreciate your thoughts about both the Bill Lann Lee nomination and
Affirmative Action – they are among the most perceptive and considerate ones
I’ve seen on this list.

Associating the current stalled hearings to anti-Asian sentiment is a bit
overstated, though it wouldn’t be fair to dismiss its existence either. (So
far as I can tell, no one on this CAC list has attributed this development to
anti-Asian sentiment.) Certainly other issues must be factored in, but I’m
rather suspicious of those who play the “qualification” card (who wouldn’t be
after a good look at the “quality” of political leaders we have from both
parties). This is really more a partisan fight between constituencies that
support the two parties rather than over how America defines civil rights.
In other words, why do unions, civil rights organizations, feminists, and
environmentalists gravitate towards the Democratic Party despite their
unhappiness with the party’s shift to the right? Why do groups like the
Christian Coalition, big businesses, etc. ally themselves with the Republican
Party despite their unhappiness with the party’s apparent willingness to
compromise with Democrats? Who’s interests are served by the Hatch’s
willingess to make such an issue of the Lee nomination? (Remember the Lani
Guinier nomination? Republicans blocked her nomination, too. She was the
first Democrat to be “Borked” – and apparently, not the last) I think that
when these “why” questions are answered, we begin to get at the heart of the
debate. After all, politics is the art of the possible, the skilled
maneuvering between or response to various interest groups with power. Thus,
IMHO, the responsible Christian citizen needs to discern carefully and with
great scrutiny the difference between ideological rhetoric and consequential
actions (actually, actions speak louder than words in politics). Which
interest groups are we supporting when we vote or take certain positions on
issues?

Again, thanks for your thoughtful comments and God bless. – Tim

In a message dated 12/1/97 3:52:28 AM, SKYLeung@aol.com wrote:

<>

– ————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com

——————————

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:57:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: Do we Asian-American owe anything???

Harry:

Thanks so much for your thoughtful comments! It puts so much into
perspective.

It seems to me that your experiences have led you to accept an either/or
solutions for the “race” problem in America: either individual self-help or
social responsibility (ensured by gov’t). With the exception of the cultural
pathology and the Asian American model theses, I agree with all your
perscriptions for African Americans. Education, hard work, familial
fidelity, discipline, etc. are all part of the solution, but do not
constitute the whole answer.

The “liberal” analysis of American society is also valid – people of color do
have the odds stacked against them (BTW, who said anything about socialism?).

In a message dated 12/1/97 2:13:40 AM, HarryWLew@aol.com wrote:

<>

——————————

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:58:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: Do we Asian-American owe anything???

Apologies, I accidently sent an incomplete message – will send the final
draft later. – Tim

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 12:37:07 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: A CAC perspective on AA?

Dear CACers:

Deadlines abound and I am in deep water with my publishers. I suspect
my activities on CAC will be greatly curtailed in the coming months.
Before I fade away, however, an explanatory summary might be in order.

Our recent discussion on AA has been dominated too much by the kind of
partisan arguments we read and hear in the media. Not a problem in
itself, but I would once again exhort all of us to return to what the
CAC formum is all about: only two criteria truly count in my
thinking–so far as CAC is concerned–our Asian-American identity and
our Christian faith.

Notwithstanding recent accusations against me, I do not espouse
Democratic party lines. In fact, I find BOTH political parties
particularly unapetitizing. Even given all my misgivings with Promise
Keepers, their Washington rally brought to sharp relief the promise
BREAKERS that infest our capital today. I likewise find the extremists
on both sides of the theological spectrum troubling (see my post “Re:
Dislodging our churches from the Religious Right,” 11/6/97). I have
attempted time and again to steer our discussion to an Asian-American
perspective on aff. action (see my posts, “What is the issue?” 11/18/97
and “Re: What is the issue?” 11/20/97)–apparently without much success.

Again, notwhithstanding such labels of my views as “blantant heresy” or
“quasi-Christian,” I steadfastly maintain my Christian perspective. In
the last court of appeal, it’s the only one that counts. If there be
disagreement (and there is always disagreement; it’s a given; it’s what
it means to be in a body with diverse parts), I hope we could agree it’s
just a matter of different readings of the Bible and not a cause for
damning the other side. To raise questions of someone else’s faith on
the basis of disagreement is character-assassination. It’s
mafia-tactic; it has no place in the Christian body.

(1) An Asian-American perspective on Affirmative Action: I can
understand why AsiAm are ambivalent about AA. On the one hand, AsiAm
have benefited from AA. Part of our sucsess is due in part to
enlightened policies won as a result of the civil rights movt in the
60s. Clarenence is right in this regard. If AA hadn’t been enforced,
for example, I probably wouldn’t even have a chance at a college
education–no matter how hard I worked. In a country like Germany, say,
a 15-yr-old immigrant with no language skill would be destined for a
life of menial jobs–no matter how hard he works. In my early years in
this country, it was precisely BECAUSE I knew I had a chance to go to
college that I applied myself in a way I had never before. Tim is
right: AA does not preclude hard work but gives our hard work something
to show for and may even encourage it.

On the other hand, AA in its present incarnation does not seem to
benefit AsiAm. In the academic field, my African-American and women
colleagues have more offers than they can say “no” to. In terms of
qualifications, I am at least as “qualified” as they are, yet I have
nary the same opportunities. In fellowship applications, AsiAm are
official “non-minorities,” so that we have to compete with whites.
Similar examples can be multiplied. UC Berkeley and Boston Latin
readily come to mind.

The issues are, of course, vastly more complicated than this, and I
don’t presume to understand all the legal subtleties. My point here is
simply that intelligent AsiAm can disagree on AA.

(2) A Biblical Perspective on Affirmative Action: What persuades me to
argue for retaining SOME FORM of AA, however, is the biblical mandate
for economic justice. In a post (“Re: Bill Lee” 11/19/97), I listed a
number of bibical texts: Acts 2.43-47; 4.32-37; Luke 4.18-19; Amos
4.1-3; Isa 58. I should also add 2 Cor 8.13-15, where Paul talks of
economic equality and the Christian willingness to give what one has to
those who do not. He cites Exodus 16.18 (in v. 15) and sets forth Jesus
as an examplar: “For you know the grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ, that
he, though rich, became poor on our behalf, in order that you yourselves
might become rich by his poverty” (2 Cor 8.9). While the spiritual
dimension is clearly there–it’s about Christ’s incarnation after
all–Paul is using it in a direct appeal to the Corinthian Christians
sharing their wealth with the poor in Jerusalem (2 Cor 8.1-15; cf. Gal
2.10). This is an economic appropriation of the incarnation , if you
will. The spiritual and the material are never separated in Paul’s view.

Whether the quota system or set-asides are the best way to implement
this vision, I defer to lawyers and legal experts on CAC who know far
more than I. But SOME FORM of balancing the playing field ought to be
in place. It’s the biblical thing to do.

It’s been exasperating but also rewarding.

Blessings and sober reflection on the central mystery of our faith–of
triumph accomplished through defeat, of life through death, of power in
weakness, of the Lord of the universe, Master of time and space, taking
on the despised, helpless, slimy, barely-human body of a newborn infant.

Sze-kar Wan

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:38:20 -0700
Subject: CAC_Mail: Comment

“Raise your glass to the hard working people
Lets drink to the uncounted heads
Lets think of the wandering millions
Who need leaders but get gamblers instead”
–Mick Jagger / Keith Richards

Sze-kar, Maybe Promise Keepers (vs. “promise BREAKERS”) are more
counter-cultural than I thought 🙂

G

——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 22:50:49 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: A CAC perspective on AA?

Thank you, brother Sze-kar, for your well-measured, well-balanced (IMHO)
summation on AA. I, for one, agree with everything you laid out. Amen.

ken fong.

——————————

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:07:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CAC_Mail: Fwd: AAASCommunity: Book signing, Colloquium, and Reception for Professor Kyeyo

CACers:

FYI, Tim Tseng
– ———————
Forwarded message:
From: dtn@ucla.edu (Don T. Nakanishi)
Sender: owner-aaascommunity@uclink4.berkeley.edu
To: aaascommunity@uclink.berkeley.edu (AAASPOST)
Date: 97-12-03 03:52:40 EST

PLEASE ATTEND A SPECIAL WELCOME BACK RECEPTION, TALK AND BOOK SIGNING —

The Asian American Studies Center cordially invites you to attend a
reception, book signing, and talk by Professor Kyeyoung Park of the UCLA
Anthropology Department and Asian American Studies Center, (and current
Fellow of the Russell Sage Foundation in New York) on

Thursday, December 4, 1997, from 4-6 p.m.,
3232 Campbell Hall (Conference Room, Asian American Studies Center)

Professor Park will be speaking on, “The Korean American Dream: Crafting
Cultures, Identities, and Ideologies.” It will focus on research issues in
connection with her recently published book, The Korean American Dream,
(Cornell University Press, 1997). The talk is part of the Faculty
Colloquium Series of the Center. The event is free and open to the public.

Professor Park will be signing copies of her book during the reception
following her talk.

For further information contact the UCLA Asian American Studies Center,
(310) 825-2974.

Don T. Nakanishi, Director and Professor
UCLA Asian American Studies Center
3230 Campbell Hall
PO Box 951546
Los Angeles, CA 90095-1546
phone: (310) 825-2974
fax: (310) 206-9844
e-mail: dtn@ucla.edu
Center’s web site: http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/aasc

================================================================
* AAASCommunity, the Discussion & News list of the
* Email Network of the Association for Asian American Studies
– —————————————————————
* Coordinator:
================================================================

——————————

From: HarryWLew@aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:57:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: Do we Asian-American owe anything???

Dear Clarence and CACers,

Oops. I misspelt Nicholas Lemann’s last name in my last post. Coming from New
York City, I always want to insert an “h” in it. Thanks Peter for pointing
that out.

So the correct reference is:

Nicholas Lemann’s THE PROMISED LAND: THE GREAT BLACK MIGRATION AND HOW IT
CHANGED AMERICA (Knopf, 1991).

This book is an expansion of a two-article series entitled “The Origins of
the Underclass” that appeared in the June and July 1986 issues of THE
ATLANTIC MONTHLY. It has received much critical acclaim from across the
political spectrum, and has been nominated for and received various awards.

It was the reading of those articles a decade ago that helped revolutionize
my thinking on the issue. It made me realize that the problem of the poor was
not simply an economic one or even a political one. Cultural, individual
spiritual and moral values really matter.

I should have known that as a Christian, but my liberal ideology got in the
way. Christians can really make a difference in the individual lives of folks
trapped in poverty in the innercity.

If you don’t have the time to read the book, you should at least read the
original articles.

Yours in Christ,
Harry Lew

——————————

From: DC Chuang
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:53:38 EST
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Bill Lee and Affirmative Action

In a message dated 97-11-26 05:08:30 EST, you write:

<>

Tim, I find it very hard to believe any true believer could like Mr. Clinton,
though as Christians we are to love the sinner and hate the sin. So to better
phrase it, perhaps I should say Mr. Clinton’s character (or lack thereof).

Regards, DC

p.s. still trying to get around to responding to your last message to me.

——————————

From: SKYLeung@aol.com
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 00:13:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: A CAC perspective

Brother Sze-kar,

You wrote:
>Our recent discussion on AA has been dominated too much by the kind of
>partisan arguments we read and hear in the media. Not a problem in
>itself, but I would once again exhort all of us to return to what the
>CAC formum is all about: only two criteria truly count in my
>thinking–so far as CAC is concerned–our Asian-American identity and
>our Christian faith.
>
>(2) A Biblical Perspective on Affirmative Action: What persuades me to
>argue for retaining SOME FORM of AA, however, is the biblical mandate
>for economic justice…..
>
>Whether the quota system or set-asides are the best way to implement
>this vision, I defer to lawyers and legal experts on CAC who know far
>more than I. But SOME FORM of balancing the playing field ought to be
>in place. It’s the biblical thing to do.

I apologize for bringing in some perspectives that may not be completely
germane to the CAC forum. I also hope that the points I’ve brought up are
not viewed as intentional libel, slander, or defamation. However, I would
like to indulge myself with one more “political” contemplation before getting
back to more “CAC” issues.

I agree that there’s a Biblical mandate for SOME FORM of leveling the playing
field and definitely for economic justice. Moreover, I understand this to be
another Year of Jubilee. But, I simply submit that Affirmative Action as we
know it should not be automatically THE means of “justice” we champion. I
believe some “liberal” thinkers have a point when they ask society to
re-examine concepts of merit. Do AsiAms have strong attachments to
established definitions? Would we be open to rationally revisiting and
possibly revising them? Some elitists may cringe at the thought.

Brother Tim wrote:
:Certainly other issues must be factored in, but I’m
:rather suspicious of those who play the “qualification” card (who wouldn’t
be
:after a good look at the “quality” of political leaders we have from both
:parties). This is really more a partisan fight between constituencies that
:support the two parties rather than over how America defines civil rights.
:In other words, why do unions, civil rights organizations, feminists, and
:environmentalists gravitate towards the Democratic Party despite their
:unhappiness with the party’s shift to the right? Why do groups like the
:Christian Coalition, big businesses, etc. ally themselves with the
Republican
:Party despite their unhappiness with the party’s apparent willingness to
:compromise with Democrats?

I find the question about party affiliation interesting. I believe there is
not one simple answer, or even a simple set of answers. However, I believe
it unfortunately comes down to power alliances and pocketbooks more often
than we’d care to admit. We can’t totally ignore economics. There are even
a few voters that still cast their votes strictly according to fiscal
philosophy. Although, certainly talking out of school here, I believe that
among those focused more on social issues, conservatives tend to be economic
monetarists and liberals tend to be economic activists (although some will be
quick to point out that, despite intervening quite frequently with monetary
measures, Alan Greenspan is supposedly a Reagan Republican). When it comes
to fiscal policies, conservatives tend to take a hands-off, laissez-faire
approach and liberals are more willing to tax and spend. More regulation and
more spending tend to favor causes of those that Brother Tim identified as
aligning themselves with Democrats. As for the Christian Coalition, I
sometimes hear them associate family values with reduced taxes and balanced
budgets.

How do CACers, AsiAms, etc. vote? Do they vote their pocketbooks? Perhaps
socio-economic status and similar factors come into play. I actually believe
reducing taxes before critically and reasonably “pruning” spending is
“gambling” as Brother G might put it. Appropriate and needed Gov. programs
are often crippled by unwise cuts in spending. But, do AsiAms vote against a
backdrop of cultural values that tend to accentuate bottom-line, personal
income, or micro-economic, issues and promises? Is it values, ideas, or the
economy?

Many AsiAms I know went with their pocketbooks in our recent elections here
in Virginia. Eliminating the property tax on cars was the winning campaign
promise. I am tempted to ask, “Does reducing taxes really mean that we as
Christians, or we as AsiAms would give, save, and/or buy more?” To be
honest, I think, working/studying earnestly and getting a higher paying job
would be more probable than realizing substantial income savings from lowered
taxes for most AsiAms.

As a Washingtonian, I’m compelled to let you know that any young techie with
a modicom of skill can make a killing in the DC area these days. There is a
real shortage of programmers around here – check out recent issues of The
Washington Post for more information. Those of you from Silicon Valley or
the Rt. 128 area could send young Christians down this way to EARN more and
GIVE more! They could even check out Brother DJ’s new multi-ethnic church!=)

One last illustration from around here concerning the “enigma” of politics.
On Tuesday, for the first time since home rule began in DC, a Republican was
elected to the City Council. It didn’t matter that he was openly homosexual.
He won primarily on promises of advocating school vouchers! Go figure…

Commenting from (just outside) DC,
Stephen Leung

——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 23:36:40 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: A CAC perspective

Although I certainly am tempted to vote with my pocketbook, I make every
effort to allow my theology to inform my politics. Certainly not a
perfect system by any means, but it’s one attempt to head off my normal
selfish tendencies. Of course, it hinges on how one defines/understands
the kingdom of God, doesn’t it. Ah, I told you this wasn’t perfect. ;-D

ken fong

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 02:59:12 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Fwd: Press Release – Internet Online Summit

Dear CACers:

FYI, J. Chang
– ——————-
“PARENTS CAN’T PROTECT KIDS FROM
ON-LINE PORN ALONE – COMPUTER INDUSTRY,
SCHOOLS AND LIBRARIES MUST
COOPERATE,” FRC SAYS

WASHINGTON, D.C. – “We are happy to see Internet Service
Providers (ISPs) finally commit to eliminating child
pornography from their services,” Family Research Council
Legal Policy Director Cathy Cleaver said Wednesday after the
Internet Online Summit: Focus on Children. “The American
people will hold them to that commitment. But the industry
must do much more, they must get rid of the other illegal
material they carry: hard-core, clearly ‘obscene’ pornography.”

While early sessions of the Internet Summit had the appearance
of an ISP trade show, protecting children from pornography and
predators was finally addressed. Vice President Gore told
summit attendees that the Clinton administration will
aggressively enforce child porn, child stalking, and obscenity
laws online.

Family Research Council and other leading pro-family groups
called on Attorney General Janet Reno in a full-page ad in
Monday’s Washington Times to enforce obscenity laws
aggressively, especially on the Internet. In her summit
address, Attorney General Reno restated the Department of
Justice’s commitment to enforce child pornography laws on the
Internet, but she failed yet again to address the Department
of Justice’s virtual refusal to enforce violations of current
obscenity laws on-line.

“The Summit spent a considerable amount of its time focusing
on parents’ role in protecting children online and planning
to educate and equip parents for the task, Cleaver said. “The
problem not addressed by the summit is that 70 percent of
children’s Internet access occurs outside of the home where
parents have no control. Parents deserve to know when schools
and libraries are going to decide to be part of the solution.”

“Vice President Gore renewed President Clinton’s promise to
get every school on-line by the year 2000,” Cleaver said.
“That promise may prove disastrous unless education groups
agree to tough filtering software for every school computer.”

A National PTA spokesperson focused on ‘equal access’ to the
Internet for children, but ignored the responsibility of
schools to protect children from the Internet’s dangers.
“Without filtering software on school computers, children may
wind up getting ‘equal access’ to harmful pornographic images,”
Cleaver said. “Schools should be safe havens for children,
not danger zones.”
– ————————————————————–
To unsubscribe from this list, send email to “press@townhall.com”
with the words “Unsubscribe press” in the body of the message.

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 03:24:28 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: racist

G,

its a closed chapter . . .over 20 years ago. A definite case of:
something they “intended for harm, God intended for good.”
I ended up with a couple of companies and pastoring. It wouldn’t
have happen if I became the VP.

bill

G Ottoson wrote:
>
> On Fri, 28 Nov 1997 10:38:21 -0800 ohbrudder
> writes:
> >
> > I’ll tell you what is objectionable racism. It is when I was passed
> >over for promotion to a vice-president position in favor of a aller,
> > >blonde, blue-eyed white guy who was less qualified than I… admit
> > >I don’t pray for the whites to be saved . . .> >
> > Dear Bill,
> >
> > It is clear from your email context–> the disappointment with MIDDLE
> > MANAGEMENT–> why you might not pray for MANAGEMENT to be
> > ‘saved’…reflecting on it some more I’d ask, were there only white
> > managers involved in ‘passing you over’ for promotion? (e.g. could you
> > have been the first AA/CA VP at the company in question?)
> >
> > G

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 03:22:56 -0800
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: racist

I feel sorry for you, Ray. I could, like Jesus in His words,call
self-righteous, judgmental, condescending, pharisiacal
people like yourself, “You snake. You viper!” But I won’t.
Which is more kind than you implying my brother, Sze-kar,
is a swine. Now you have justification for accusing me of
not becoming like Christ. It is fortunate for you that I am in
a very good, holiday, gracious mood as I write this.

As a matter of statement, your definition/idea of a racist is too
narrow. My racism is no more than racial favoritism and
preference. It’s the reason I married a Chinese girl, love
Chinese food, subscribe to CAC, pastored Chinese churches,
evangelize Chinese Americans, etc. You will never
understand this, but I consider Chinese more an extended
family than I would other races; and I favor my family
. . . and I want my family to win!

This is a far cry from the racism that espouses racial superiority,
bigotry, and/or discrimination.

Oh, I love black gospel music in worship and prefer it over the
most white music (whatever that is) . . .unfortunately, it doesn’t
sound the same when I sing and dance to it. And one of my
favorite preachers is TD Jakes, a black preacher, who sweats
profusely when he preaches. I guess I’m a racist in your eyes.
But that’s okay because my relationship with Christ is solid;
I’m in love with Him and He is with me.

For Him who chose the Jews (over the Chinese, blacks, etc.)

bill leong

Ray Downen wrote:
>
> It’s too bad that you are and are unrepentent! Do you assume that GOD
> likes yellow skins better than white or brown? You should know
> better. If you are NOT seeking to become like Jesus, there’s
> something wrong with your profession of faith in Him as Lord.

——————————

From: “Ray Downen”
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:31:38 +0000
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: racist

I hear you saying that YOUR racism is not objectional racism, and
Sze-kar’s politics are perfectly acceptable and desirable since he
can refer us to a Bible verse that applies to a theocracy and say
that this means we in a democracy are to take certain actions.
I heard about an ignorant preacher lately who preached a
sermon on SIN IS SIN. Well, it is unless the sinner can redefine it!
To imagine that God PREFERS yellow skin or black skin or “white” skin
is to claim more than the truth supports.
RACISM is RACISM.
U.S. Christians have no right to try to create in this free nation a
theocracy where their political theories could be forced on every
citizen.
Those who sin shouldn’t BRAG about their sin in a public forum.

> Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 03:22:56 -0800
> From: ohbrudder
> Reply-to: ohbrudder@prodigy.net
> Organization: Prodigy Internet
> To: CAC
> Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: racist

> I feel sorry for you, Ray. I could, like Jesus in His words,call
> self-righteous, judgmental, condescending, pharisiacal
> people like yourself, “You snake. You viper!” But I won’t.
> Which is more kind than you implying my brother, Sze-kar,
> is a swine. Now you have justification for accusing me of
> not becoming like Christ. It is fortunate for you that I am in
> a very good, holiday, gracious mood as I write this.
>
> As a matter of statement, your definition/idea of a racist is too
> narrow. My racism is no more than racial favoritism and
> preference. It’s the reason I married a Chinese girl, love
> Chinese food, subscribe to CAC, pastored Chinese churches,
> evangelize Chinese Americans, etc. You will never
> understand this, but I consider Chinese more an extended
> family than I would other races; and I favor my family
> . . . and I want my family to win!
>
> This is a far cry from the racism that espouses racial superiority,
> bigotry, and/or discrimination.
>
> Oh, I love black gospel music in worship and prefer it over the
> most white music (whatever that is) . . .unfortunately, it doesn’t
> sound the same when I sing and dance to it. And one of my
> favorite preachers is TD Jakes, a black preacher, who sweats
> profusely when he preaches. I guess I’m a racist in your eyes.
> But that’s okay because my relationship with Christ is solid;
> I’m in love with Him and He is with me.
>
> For Him who chose the Jews (over the Chinese, blacks, etc.)
>
> bill leong
>
> Ray Downen wrote:
> >
> > It’s too bad that you are and are unrepentent! Do you assume that GOD
> > likes yellow skins better than white or brown? You should know
> > better. If you are NOT seeking to become like Jesus, there’s
> > something wrong with your profession of faith in Him as Lord.
>
from Ray Downen respectfully on this day of the Lord.
417/782-0814 2228 Porter Joplin Mission Outreach.
Mail address is P O Box 1065 Joplin MO 64802-1065.
Internet home page addr = http://www.ipa.net/~outreach

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:04:38 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Guess Who’s Been Skipping Church?

Dear CACers:

FYI, J. Chang
– ——————-

At a press conference called to expose Promise Keepers’
“sinister” agenda, the National Organization for Women
screened a video tape that showed Christian, PK-supporting
women singing, “I Surrender All.” This, NOW said, was
proof positive that PK really wants to dominate women.

Apparently it took a reporter who was attending the press
conference to point out that the song was a classic hymn
and the “surrendering” in question was to God.

(Taken from “Focus on the Family Citizen” magazine, Nov. 97)

——————————

From: TSTseng
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 00:48:33 EST
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: racist

Dear Brothers Ray and Bill:

If I may interrupt you guys, I’d like to request that you continue your debate
in private. It is crossing the lines of civility. – Tim Tseng

In a message dated 12/4/97 11:23:40 AM, outreach@ipa.net wrote:

<>

——————————

From: TSTseng
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 01:05:06 EST
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Bill Lee and Affirmative Action

DC:

Well, that wasn’t exactly what I meant. I resist the “true believer” criteria
since it presumes that all who are real Christians _must_ dislike Clinton.
Wouldn’t you agree that liking or disliking Clinton ought not be a doctrinal
test? I dislike Clinton, not so much for his lack of character, but for his
unwillingness to stand firm on principles (to be fair, in such a polarized
environment, it is difficult for anyone in his position to stick to one’s
political convictions).

All the best. – Tim

In a message dated 12/4/97 6:39:48 PM, DCChuang@aol.com wrote:

<>

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:24:23 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: A CAC perspective

On Thu, 4 Dec 1997 00:13:34 -0500 (EST) SKYLeung@aol.com writes:
>
>How do CACers..vote? …Is it values, ideas, or the economy?
>

Hi Stephen–

Interesting stuff your writing these days! Keep up the good work!

Re: Voting

(1) Apparently, for many people the personality of the candidate(s) is
the big factor. E.g. Acc to ABC tonite, the 1960 Nixon vs. Kennedy debate
was the first televised debate betw candidates for the Am. Presidency.
Kennedy was (indeed) very impressive, strong; Nixon appeared unsure of
himself. The story is that Kennedy’s TV ‘performance’ made the election
CLOSE (otherwise, being Catholic, i.e. generating a Republican-fed
paranoia that ‘the Pope would run Am.’, he would not have stood a
chance.) I think ABC said the margin by which JFK won is about 168,000
votes.

(2) Food for thought–nothing to do with CAC I hope:) Supposedly, acc to
ABC, given the CLOSE race, the small margin of victory for Kennedy in
1960 is traceable to a political deal cut betw Jos. Kennedy, JFK’s dad,
and ‘the Outfit’, i.e. the Giancana-run Chicago mob which allegedly
influenced voting in big cities in three key states–Nevada, Missouri,
and Illinois. JFK and his brother, Bobby, had been prosecuting partic the
Chicago mafia in conjunction with labor/labor bosses such as Jimmy Hoffa
(whose son, JP Hoffa, Jr., now has the inside track on the Teamster
General Presidency). Allegedly Giancana wanted the assurance of relief
from the prosecution in exchange for influencing the election in favor of
JFK…and to make a long story short…allegedly Giancana ultimately
ordered the Kennedy assassination.

G

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:31:48 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Pro-life Movement: Questions for Fellow CACers, Responses Invited

Dear Sze-kar:

Thanks for your perspectives on a recent post!

On Fri, 28 Nov 1997 17:11:45 -0500 Sze-kar Wan
writes:

>As someone who is profoundly committed to the prolife platform, I
>would say that there is still selfinterest. Perhaps not in the same
sense
>as other political or ethnic groups. But if we believe in a cause,
there
>is political interest to be gained. Which is OK. One ought never
>stop our commitments just because we detect human motives.

There are many pro-life groups that have explicit political goals in the
efforts to legally end the existence of abortion. However, there are
also
many other pro-life organizations that are non-political in nature,
focusing
only on community education, client counseling, free pregnancy testing,
etc. Many volunteer of their time, energy, & finances selflessly for the
sake of the Kingdom in this particular arena. But I do agree with you
in
that if we “micro-analyze” anyone for the presence of any scintilla of
human self-interest, we would most likely find some.

Since we’ve started a new thread, I would like to expand on this pro-life
issue.
I am glad to find any believer committed to the pro-life platform! As
you may
already know, this Jan. 98 will mark the 25th anniversary of the infamous
Supreme Court “Roe v. Wade” ruling which helped to legalize abortion on
demand in the U.S. Since then, about 1.5 million abortions have taken
place each year, for a cumulative total of over 36 million abortions
since
1973. There are over 4,000 abortions on a daily basis in the U. S.
alone,
And that’s not counting the ones internationally and the “infanticide”
situations where some babies (usually female) are killed immediately
after
birth in China with a “one child per couple” policy.

The numbers can sometimes be so large that they become meaningless.
One can easily be numbed to the tragedy of lost lives through abortion.
Inside
in our hearts, we feel that abortion is wrong. Inside our theological
minds, we
know that abortion is wrong. With our mouths, we may say that abortion
is
wrong. But do we really believe our own rhetoric? Do believers really
care
about the many innocent, helpless lives being lost? It may be that the
only
reason why abortion still continues in the US is because not all
believers
have taken this issue seriously in earnestly praying & working towards
providing alternatives to abortion, eliminating the need for abortion, &
ending
the legality of abortion itself. What a sad commentary on the Church &
on this
nation when even the gruesome partial-birth abortions are still legally
permitted. I & fellow believers in the Body need to repent for my/our
apathy.

Unfortunately, the abortion issue touches the lives of those we may know.
Statistically, about one out of every six women in the US who has an
abortion
comes from an evangelical background. Does anybody have any figures
regarding abortion within the Asian community? I wouldn’t doubt that some

Asian women who have abortions are within our own families, Bible study
groups, fellowships, neighborhoods, & work places. With the strong
cultural
need to save “face,” not many would know about it.

Here are some open questions for any CACer to respond to:

1) How prevalent are abortions within the various CACers’ home churches
or circle of contacts?
2) How many CAC pastors/lay leaders have preached or taught on the issue
of the sanctity of human life?
3) How many CACers have heard their pastor/lay leaders preach or teach on
this same topic?
4) How many CACers are involved in any level of the pro-life movement?
5) Are there any other CACers out there of similar or different
convictions?
6) Why do Asian churches appear to be so silent on the sanctity of human
life
or abortion issue?
7) For those who have had some experience in counseling Am-Asians, what
would be some effective ways of ministering to Am-Asians who are in
crisis
pregnancy situations?
8) For those who have been involved politically in the pro-life movement,
what
has been your experiences as an Am-Asian?
9) For those who have ministered to Am-Asian youth, what has been
effective
in presenting topics related to sexual purity/abstinence?

Here’s a great chance for interested CAC lurkers especially to respond!
It would be helpful to get a grass roots feel among fellow CACers. BTW,
the
week of Jan. 18-24, 1998 has been designated as the “Sanctity of Human
Life Week” in solemn commemoration of “Roe v. Wade’s” 25th anniversary.

In Him,
J. Chang

P.S. Sze-kar, I know that you’re under many time pressures now. So don’t
feel a
need to respond right away or at all, although your insights are always
welcomed.

——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 00:36:00 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: racist

Brothers Ray and Bill…

I add my ‘amen’ to Tim’s request. Reading your salvos both saddens me
and tempts me to cancel my CAC subscription. This kind of ‘flaming’ is
just what I hoped wouldn’t take place in this venue. I’m praying for
you both as my brothers in Christ.

Shalom, ken fong

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:56:29 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Clinton

Dear Tim:

On Fri, 5 Dec 1997 01:05:06 EST TSTseng writes:

> I dislike Clinton, not so much for his lack of character, but
>for his
>unwillingness to stand firm on principles (to be fair, in such a
>polarized
>environment, it is difficult for anyone in his position to stick to
>one’s
>political convictions).

IMHO, character is related to the ability to follow through on a
principled conviction in spite of the surrounding environment.
I agree though that it is very difficult.

But the ability to firm on principles could be viewed in either a
positive
or negative light depending on one’s policy position. Unfortunately,
Clinton does have an extremely firm, consistent, but radical view on
abortion throughout his presidency. (BTW, I understand that his
position on abortion has hardened as president since his days as
governor in Arkansas.)

He advocates a stand where abortions would be permitted in all
nine months of pregnancy, regardless of fetal viabiltiy or health, even
through the means of a horrible partial-birth abortion procedure or an
abortifacient (such as RU-486), even for the purposes of fetal
sex-selection, even on military or prison locations, even if no parental
consent has been granted, even if no information about the risks
of abortions has been communicated to the woman, even if abortion
clinics are not required to be licensed or to report abortion-related
maternal deaths or injuries to the Center for Disease Control (CDC),
and if need be, have abortions subsidized by you & me with our hard-
earned taxes. To add insult to injury, with more of our taxes, to then
export this abortion-on-demand philosophy internationally through the
various UN “population control” programs.

One can hardly admire him for his “firmness” on this issue. I can
imagine how the stomachs of concerned believers all over the world
must churn every time Clinton talks about “caring” for the children of
our future generations.

In Him,
J.Chang

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 03:56:13 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: racist

My apologies to all CACers. I allowed my pride to get
the better of me. Please forgive me.

bill leong

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 13:59:45 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: ROMAN Catholics Loyal to Pope?

(CAC, fyi–G)

On Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:18:55 +0000 “Ray Downen” writes:
>Gary,
> I agree there’s lots to think about..
>

[[12/4 <> ]]

Also to consider, as well, Is the Pope anti-American?

========

Re: the loyalty of Catholics, While many Cath I know embrace the Pope as
‘earthly Father’, many (of the same) also do not respect/abide by his
‘authority’/teaching esp on the restricted role of women in
Church/society, the celibacy of the priesthood, abortion/birth control
issues. Things may have changed to be more this way since the 60s, I
dunno, but many Cath people I work with are disloyal Catholics in the
sense of actively engaging the Bible’s authority via the Holy
Spirit…e.g. reading it/Paul and praying together before faculty mtgs..G

PS Pls take a look at this recent article, also from an ABC News source
(http://www.abcnews.com):

<<
Internal and External Issues Challenge the American Church

Catholic Church Struggles

"We look at the world that is culturally Catholic, but there is not as
much
real practice of the faith."
– – Archbishop Theodore McCarick

By Barr Seitz
ABCNEWS.com
Nov. 16 – In the United States, where divorce rates hover at 50 percent
and
abortion is protected by law, the Roman Catholic church is fighting for
relevancy. Which religious denomination has the most members in America?

Pope John Paul led a Mass on Sunday at Saint Peter's Basilica to open a
month-long special meeting, known as a synod, of church men from North
and
South America. This special assembly at the Vatican will grapple with
some of the Roman Catholic Church's most pressing problems, including how
to win back those who have left the church.

The Pope appealed to bishops from the Americas to work with fresh
missionary zeal to win back lapsed Catholics to the church.

How to answer the attraction of evangelical sects-one of the chief
magnets for disenchanted Catholics-is a key that Pope John Paul II has
put
high on the agenda for the synod of bishops, which opens Monday.

Pope John Paul II wants the bishops of the Americas to spend a month
discussing a range of topics including more aggressive efforts to spread
the
word of the Bible.

"We look at the world that is culturally Catholic, but there is not as
much real practice of the faith," says Archbishop Theodore McCarick of
Newark.

Catholics Losing Ground

Still far and away the largest single denomination in the United States,
Catholics are losing influence to Protestant evangelical and Pentecostal
denominations.

In the past 10 years, Catholic Church attendance
The Catholic church is the largest U.S. religious denomination since the
American Protestants are divided into a variety of evangelical,
Pentecostal
and traditional denominations. (ABCNEWS.com) has declined by 15 percent,
the numbers of men joining the priesthood or religious orders have
dropped 15
percent, and those of women joining sisterhoods have dropped 30 percent.

Catholics are fighting an uphill battle. “How do you give meaning to a
population that has already found meaning in job satisfaction, sexuality,
entertainment, luxury and narcotics?” says Archbishop Pilarczyk of
Cincinnati.

New Religions Make Faith Easier

More charismatic denominations like the Southern Baptists and
Pentecostals
seem to have found some answers and have moved in to challenge the
primacy of both the Catholic church and established Protestant
denominations.

Evangelical groups more than doubled in size in the last 10 years. These
groups provide a direction for those who want to listen, a mysticism that
brings people directly to the “Holy Spirit,” and they saturate the
television and radio waves.

“There is more clarity in evangelical churches, and they have a clearer
stronger message,” says George Gallup, chairman of the George H. Gallup
Institute, a non-profit group that studies American sociological trends.
“The
church is healing them and reaching their lives.”

“It is less complex than the teachings of the Catholic church,” says
Pilarczyk. “It gives immediate and uncomplicated answers.”

Internal Divisions Block Change

The American Catholic church has divided on how to address the
challenges,
particularly what role women should have and whether they should be
ordained.

“The general theme is that the status quo is under some attack,” says
Dean Hoges, an expert of Catholicism at Washington’s Catholic University.
“The Catholic community is already fairly polarized.”

American efforts to explore the possibility of ordaining women to make
up for the declining numbers of men entering the priesthood have not
impressed the pope.

“The Vatican is quite clear that it wants to keep older forms in tact,”
says Hoges. “But there is so much diversity, and many people restless
with
status quo.” >>

G

——————————

From: JLoFEC@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 19:59:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CAC_Mail: Chinese-American Demographics

All –

On 1/19-20, I will be participating in something called the Asian Task Force
Summit in Los Angeles. This gathering, sponsored by the US Spiritual Warfare
Network, is for Asian-American pastors and others in North America, to get
together, network and strategize about how we can work together to see
revival come to our peoples. Part of the time will be spent in focus groups
by ethnicity, where I and whichever other Chinese-Americans show up will meet
together and strategize on how we can reach our kinsmen.

Cost is $25. Cindy Jacobs, Dr. Peter Wagner and others will be hosting the
gathering. If any of you are interested in getting more information, please
e-mail me and I’ll send you some info pronto.

In any case, in order to prepare for the meeting, there are two sets of
questions which I wanted to ask all of you, hoping to gather some helpful
information. The first set of questions re: demographics. In a second post
(so we can keep the two items separate), I’ll be asking another set of
questions.

Here, what I’d like to know is:
* What are the latest estimates of Chinese in the US and Canada?
* What percentage of them are native-born (ABC or CBC)?
* What percentage of either of these categories are Christian and are going
to church?

Along the lines of the last question, I have often heard that the % of
Chinese who are churched is somewhere in the 6-8% category, and the % of ABCs
even less. (Barna and Gallup seem to agree that the % of Christian
churchgoing Americans is ~40%, which means that Chinese are 5-6X more
unreached that their American counterparts) .I don’t really know if those
numbers can be substantiated. I do know that the way people seem to come up
with these numbers is to say, “in the greater LA area, there are 270 Chinese
churches, which average 100 people. That makes 27,000 Christians. Since there
are 300,000 Chinese in the area, that means we are reaching 9% (I’m making
these figures up).

Of course, that methodology is a little suspect. Is there hard data along
these lines? I am specially interested in the whether the percentages go up
or down by assimilation factors. I do know that in the LA area, there are
perhaps 250-300 Chinese churches, but there are probably only 30-50 churches
which have English ministries focusing on adults. When I was in seminary, I
was told that the % of ABCs in the US was > 50%. I am sure that is no longer
the case, but even if the % is 40%, there seems to be a highly
disproportionate amount of ministry energy directed at ABCs.

What are your thoughts?

John

* * * *
John Lo
Pastor of Youth and Young Adults
First Evangelical Church, Glendale, CA
818.240.5633
JLoFEC@aol.com
* * * *

——————————

From: JLoFEC@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 19:59:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CAC_Mail: Underlying Spiritual Issues

All –

In my last e-mail, I mentioned something about the upcoming Asian Task Force
Summit meeting in LA in 1/98. I asked some questions re: demographics which I
help can help me (and us) get some hard data which we can use in our
ministries.

The second set of questions I want to ask have to do with underlying
spiritual issues. Whatever you or I think of the Spiritual Warfare movement
and stuff like Spiritual Mapping (which I personally don’t really understand
all that well anyway), I believe that the work of ministry is based on a
number factors:
(a) how effective and culturally relevant the evangelism to the unsaved
is;
(b) how effective churches and ministries are in creating places where the
newly-saved can be effectively incorporated, discipled and equipped to reach
out;

I don’t think there would be any argument about these two points. However, I
also believe that an often overlooked component to (a) is prayer.
Specifically, targeted, strategic prayer.

The thought here is that just as the Lord seems to move in our midst and
churches in different seasons and different ways, so does Satan. I am not
trying to glorify his work in any way, but I believe that he is able to blind
the minds of unbelievers (The god of this age has blinded the minds of
unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of
Christ, who is the image of God – 2 Cor 4.4), and he does so in specific ways
to specific people.

I think that we have to take a multi-pronged approach to ministry. We need to
work hard at (a) and (b) above, but also ask God wisdom whether we’d get more
bang for our buck if we can learn to pray more powerful and strategic
prayers, so that our gospel would more often find good seed instead of stony
soil as we’re busy scattering it around.

The question I have been thinking about is this:
* What is it that Satan uses to blind the minds of Chinese-Americans so that
cannot recieve the gospel? What cultural baggage, history, fears,
preoccupations or whatever do you see as spiritual roots that need to be
“pulled out” so that our gospel can find better soil?
* Do you think the spiritual issues change with assimilation?

What I am hoping to come up with are some specific things that we can begin
to pray over, so that (to change the metaphor) as we pray, the spiritual
atmosphere and clouds over the places we live will lift, and we and our
neighbors can see the spiritual truths much more clearly.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks.

John

* * * *
John Lo
Pastor of Youth and Young Adults
First Evangelical Church, Glendale, CA
818.240.5633
JLoFEC@aol.com
* * * *

——————————

From: SKYLeung
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 00:06:36 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Fwd: ’98 World Christian Conference

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Dear CAC,

I forward this as requested by Brother Dave. Interesting to note that one of
our own is one of the speakers!

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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:42:07 -0500 (EST)
From: “David C. Yao”
X-Sender: dyao@phir.sph.jhu.edu
Reply-To: “David C. Yao”
To: Steve Leung
Subject: ’98 World Christian Conference (fwd)
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Dear Steve, Please post on CAC. Thanks! –David
__________________________________________________

Please send this to anyone interested in learning more about God’s Heart for
the World.
***************************************************************
1998 World Christian Conference
Launch Out! Claiming our legacy: Discipling the nations
February 13-16, 1998
Redwood Christian Park, Santa Cruz, CA
***************************************************************

PURPOSE OF WORLD CHRISTIAN CONFERENCE

The World Christian Conference seeks to challenge and mobilize Chinese
Christians in North America to fulfill their calling in God’s
global plan — making disciples of all nations. The conference began in
1985 as the World Christian Conference for Chinese Graduates
(WCCCG) when its founders saw the need to bring Chinese Christian brothers
and sisters together to challenge them to respond to the
needs of the unreached peoples of the world as well as the need for more
full-time workers in North America.

Each year since 1985, brother and sisters, primarily from Chinese churches
on the West Coast, have come together in a forum where
biblical teaching is given, models and examples are presented, and
practical issues are discussed. The fellowship among those
attending the conference usually continues well beyond it as like-minded
brothers and sisters from different churches networks
together, helping each other to move on in their own World Christian journey.

By God’s grace, many alumni of the World Christian Conference have moved
into various ministries, locally and abroad. Others
continue to live out their World Christian calling and spread the World
Christian vision here in North America. We are seeing that God
calls His people to fulfill His plan through different and complementary
roles. It is our prayer that through this conference, more and
more Chinese Christians will work to bring about the completion of God’s
global plan, and in doing so, hasten the return of our Lord.

1998 THEME: LAUNCH OUT! CLAIMING OUR LEGACY: DISCIPLING THE NATIONS

We’re pilgrims on a journey of the narrow road
And those who’ve gone before us line the way
Cheering on the faithful, encouraging the weary,
Their lives a stirring testament to God’s sustaining grace.

Oh, may all who come behind us find us faithful.
May the fire of our devotion light their way.
May the footprints that we leave lead them to believe,
And the lives we live inspire them to obey.
Oh, may all who come behind us find us faithful.
from “Find Us Faithful” by Steve Green

These words capture the essence of our aspirations for WCC ’98.

Let us Launch Out! to:
…..heed the Master’s call, “Launch out into the deep” (Lk 5.4 KJV)
…..explore obstacles to obedience.
…..discover the next step in our pilgrimage.
…..take our place in history’s unbroken stream of witnesses.
…..claim our legacy to disciple the nations in our generation.

Too often we stand on the shore, securely moored to the status quo,
watching and admiring others launch out. We are secure, yet restless. We
smell the salt air and wonder what it would take to “go for it”–to join
the company of those whose lives burn for the glory of God throughout the
earth.

Do you long for more, yet hesitate? Do you wonder what your place is in
the World Christian movement? Come spend a rich weekend away in prayer,
worship, reflection and networking. Come hear the testimonies and
reflections of those who have gone before us–some just ahead, some at
the height, and others at the sunset of their journeys. Come renew your
commitment to follow the Lord through the adventure of faith.

God calls us to be a community of faith-filled pioneers. Just as Abraham
obeyed and went out “whither he knew not,” so we join the hosts of
witnesses who have gone before us. We launch out with hearts made brave
to go against the tide of opposition. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus and
claim our legacy–discipling the nations in our generation.

CONFERENCE SPEAKERS

Dr. Samuel Ling (General Director, China Horizon)
Born in Hong Kong, Dr. Samuel Ling belongs to the fourth generation
of a life of full time pastors and Christian workers. He came to the
United States at age 14, and graduated from the University of
Pennsylvania (History 1971), Westminster Theological Seminary (M. Div
1975, Th.M. Missions 1978) and Temple University (Ph. D. History 1981).
Since 1980 Dr. Ling and his wife, Mildred, have served the Lord in
the areas of church planting, pastoral ministry (New York City and
Chicago), starting and directing China Horizon (a ministry which develops
mainland Chinese Christian leadership), and writing (over 500 published
articles in various periodicals around the world).

Elizabeth Lowe (Minister-at-Large, OMF U.S.)
Elizabeth Lowe is a popular speaker in conferences, Bible College
campuses, churches, and other meetings. As Minister-at-Large for OMF
since 1995, she has been presenting the challenge of missions to
Christians worldwide. Her lecture have taken her to various parts of the
world, including most of the Western world and Asia.
She has a Masters degree in Chinese Studies from UCLA and has
lectured extensively on China. As coordinator for OMF’s China Awareness
Seminar, her passion is speaking to people about ministry in China.

WORKSHOPS

A. Get in the Boat! Gaining a World Christian Vision
B. Serving as Sender
C. Living and Serving as a World Christian Family
D. Developing a World Christian Vision in Your Church
E. Assessing Yourself for Overseas Ministry
F. Professional Services in Creative Access Nations
G. Becoming a World Christian Pastor
H. Facing the Unknown

REGISTRATION
Postmarked by December 31, 1997: $175
Postmarked by January 15, 1998: $185
Late registration (space permitting): $195
Pastoral Staff (by January 15, 1998): Free
Pastoral Staff (after January 15, 1998) $100

More information:
in Northern Cal:
Gem Cheng (650) 878-0431
in Southern Cal:
Derrick Tan (626) 309-1179
Web site: http://www.octlab.com/wcc98

– –part0_881384796_boundary–

——————————

From: JWongCDI@aol.com
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 01:11:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: WORTH FORWARDING

This was a disturbing poem, but more because of it’s mis-direction.
I sent it to our deacons with the following comment.

“Like much of this kind of literature, it reflects a popular perspective of
our culture. A good exercise would be to understand its fallacy. What would
be a different understanding of reality?”

Joe

——————————

From: TSTseng
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 01:05:54 EST
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Clinton

J:

While I admire your passions about the right of life of the unborn (and again,
I am also pro-life), the anger directed at Clinton by many pro-life Christians
seems a bit excessive, IMHO. No president, Republican or Democrat, since Roe
v. Wade, has ever really put any muscle behind their “prolife” rhetoric (in in
Clinton’s case, the “making abortion rare” rhetoric). Even today’s Republican
Party and ex-Christian Coalition director Ralph Reed are down playing the
anti-abortion position.

(BTW, I read in today’s newspaper that abortions in the U.S. have declined by
5% this past year – good news, IMHO)

Again, the issue I am struggling with is one of consistency among the critics
of Clinton and the traditional “liberal” platforms:

1. Why would a party that seeks to keep government out of our lives want to
use government to impose a prolife morality? What will the party that wants
to reduce government invasion of our lives do about the corporate driven
consumer culture that is permeating almost every fabric of human existence and
creating the material causes for the eroding of basic values? Actually, the
issue is not which party. I believe that both parties are now dependent on
the pocketbooks of American and multinational corporations – neither are
accountable to ordinary people.

2. Why is there not the same anger directed at those who would pass policies
which hurt the poor, racial minorities, immigrants, and single mothers
disproportionately? (i.e., if we must balance the federal budget by making
sacrifices, I’d like to see everyone making proportionate sacrifices). I
remember when Reagan ran for office, he assured everyone that his “trickle
down” theories would not cut off the safety net for the poorest. Contrast
that with Bush-Clinton or Dole-Clinton! In the last two presidential
elections, the poorest were the problem! They are the ones with cultural
character flaws, without the work ethic, etc. Wouldn’t a consistent pro-life
policy take these lives into consideration?

Finally, we MUST historicize the current conservative evangelical activism on
the prolife, family values, and small government platforms. In an issue of CT
several months ago which traced the career of Francis Schaeffer, it became
clear that an evangelical consensus on the prolife and family values agenda
was not reached (and there is probably not one today) in the 1970s. Not until
late in Schaeffer’s life did the abortion issue suddenly become THE single
issue. Furthermore, it was also late in his life when he began to make
alliances with the political right and fundamentalists.

All this is to say that it was NOT inevitable for so many evangelicals to
become so staunchly anti-abortion while supporting policies that are hurting
the most vulnerable among us. Had the attack on the liberal strawman not been
used so repeatedly, I suspect that evangelicals might have shaped both
parties’ policy platforms more significantly and more positively (e.g., taking
much more seriously the moral values of feminist and racial minority
concerns). But, it appears today that the political ideologies left and right
have shaped evangelicals and “liberal” Christians more so than vice versa.

So I continue to contend that our generation of Chinese American Christians
must learn discernment and develop the ability to distinguish between rhetoric
and reality. We need to better exegete the (sub)culture of those to whom God
has called us to minister. Sze-kar calls it “self-determination” – and I
agree with him. – Tim

In a message dated 12/5/97 2:51:28 AM, jtc10@juno.com wrote:

<>

– ————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com
– ————————————————————

——————————

From: TSTseng
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 01:32:02 EST
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: A CAC perspective

G:

Perhaps some conspiracy theories hold more weight than others? 🙂 – Tim

In a message dated 12/5/97 1:39:43 AM, gdot@juno.com wrote:

<>

——————————

From: bowyoung@juno.com (Brian H Owyoung)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:14:19 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Chinese-American Demographics

Not sure if this the proper forum for such a request but thought I would
give it a try. I am involved in a multi-ethnic and multi-cultural church
plant in Castro Valley, CA. (East bay side in the San Francisco Bay Area)
The name of our church is Pathway Community Church which is a little
over two months old. I am pastoring the church bivocationally.
Currently we have a great need for a youth pastor. We would like to find
someone who has an interest and a heart for youth (Junior and Senior
highers). The person would have to be willing to initially be
bivocational. If you know of someone please have them email me (Brian
Owyoung at bowyoung@juno.com) Thank you.

——————————

From: DC Chuang
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 14:06:39 EST
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Bill Lee and Affirmative Action

In a message dated 97-12-05 11:07:35 EST, you write:

<>

Tim, I tend to see things in black and white, though I’m seeing more gray in
my old age (no pun intended). However, I cannot see how anyone who is
familiar with his “antics” and deeds could fail to see how contrary it is to
Biblical principles. My point being, there is a right and a wrong and people
need to be able to distinguish between them. If we have trouble seeing this
in such an obvious example (IMHO), how can we understand and resolve more
complex issues.

<>

I see character and principles as being intertwined, as someone pointed out
earlier.

I read an article in the Washington Post back during the first election which
analyzed Clinton. Before then I couldn’t understand how someone could be so
unprincipled and lie (simple put) as if it meant nothing. But in his twisted
world, any means can justify the end. Definitely not an example any Christian
should follow.

Regards, DC

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 14:58:42 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Demographics and % Christians

JLoFEC@aol.com wrote on Friday, December 05, 1997
>Here, what I’d like to know is:
>* What are the latest estimates of Chinese in the US and Canada?
>* What percentage of them are native-born (ABC or CBC)?
>* What percentage of either of these categories are Christian and are
going
>to church?

The 1990 U.S. Census reports that there were 1,645,472 Chinese, among
them, 69.3% were foreign born. The proportion of ABCs superseded OBCs
only in the census years of 1940 (51.9%), 1950 (53.0%), 1960 (60.5%),
and 1970 (53.1%). However, by 1980, OBCs again superseded ABCs, 63.3%.
Because of continuous high volume Chinese immigration from the PRC,
Taiwan, Hong Kong, and other countries in the last two decades, I think
the trend is still clear: there are more OBCs than ABCs. If you really
want to know the latest estimates, you may check the U.S. Census Bureau
website. They may have them.

Now, the percentage of Christians among Chinese Americans is extremely
problematic. Some Chinese Christian leaders have made knowledgeable
attempts to count and estimate. For example, Dr. WingNing Pang came out
a 10% estimate in his papers/reports, but I’ve personally heard some
pastors, including Samuel Ling, saying that that number was too high. A
conservative estimate would be 5%, or 7% at best. In 1996, Rev. Dr.
James Chuck (American Baptist Seminary of the West) wrote: “All factors
considered, Chinese youth and adult participation in Protestant churches
is probably more near the 5% range… what we see currently may not be
keeping up with the explosive growth of the Chinese population in the
United States.” This estimate was based on his visits and surveying all
Chinese churches in the San Francisco and Bay Area.

However, several survey studies based on scientific sampling in some
metropolitan areas put the number _much much much_ higher, for example,
up to 32% Protestants among Chinese in Los Angeles (see Los Angeles
Times July 5, 1997, section B page 5). Some social scientific surveys
in Chicago and Seattle came up similar percentages. As a sociologist
myself, I tend to accept the survey numbers.

Then, the question is, how can you explain the radical discrepancies
between these survey results and Chinese Christian leaders’ informed
estimates. I have some speculations, but to keep this email short, I
want to hear your comments first.
– —————————————————————
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 13:01:31 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Chinese-American Demographics

[this message is also being sent to leaders in our church and a broader
circle of my friends to give them a snapshot of where we are today. Why
write all this and not get the most out of it, right?]

Hey, Dr. O, so that’s where you went after Berkeley Layman! We should
compare notes some times, for the church I’m leading now, Evergreen-LA,
is a “multi-Asian, multi-ethnic” one. The Lord has given us roughly 45%
Chinese, 30% JA, 7% KA, 8% SEA, 5% Euro-Am, 5% Other (Asian Indian, Pac.
Isl, AfrAm, MexAm, etc.). Generationally, we have 1st (none over 50
yoa) through 5th. Age-wise, we have babies through folks in their
eighties. The vision the Lord has given to us is to free Him to build a
“Sedaqah Community” out of us all…one where living in right
relationships (Greatest Commandment) is the pervasive goal.

I’ve been at this church since 1978, first as an intern, than its first
associate pastor and first ABC staff person. Over the years, as the
Lord grew the church, I eventually become the Sr. Assoc. Pastor to
Pastor Cory Ishida. Last March, for those who haven’t heard, he felt
led to lead our church to ‘hive,’ essentially a friendly church split.
Given the fact that I felt led to stay at the current site, he and his
part of the staff left for a temporary location with approx. 650
people. This was roughly 65% of the congregation, with most of the
young families and probably 75% of the tithers and significant givers
and 80% of CS teachers/staff and 90% of the youth advisers, both choir
directors and 95% of the old choir. Oh, and 90% of all cash on hand. I
share this with you so that you (Brian) might better appreciate that,
even though this isn’t technically a new church start like yours, in
many ways, this was/is a new church start. Yes, we had at the outset
about 400 people, but really only about 100 were really committed. The
vast majority of our people were formally marginal, at best. Just came
on Sundays, not really plugged in, not tithing. We had to start with a
whole new board, which has been a blessing in disguise since we’re
shifting paradigms, and a staff of myself, 3 f/t assoc. pastors, 1 h/t
assoc. pastor, a f/t church administrator, 1 h/t ministry associate, and
2 p/t seminary pastoral interns. (and a partridge in a pear tree!) Oh,
we got the site, which is paid off, 98% of the inventory, and the luxury
of not having to set up each Sunday morning. We also inherited the need
to raise $1M in the next year to begin construction of the second phase
of our campus due to our having run out of extensions with the city for
our modular structures.

The launch date for both our churches was March 1, 1997. Since that
time, we have seen the Lord bless the efforts of so many people. Over
50 people of all ages and ethnicities just went through our membership
class, with 30+ just being voted in. There are about 100 more waiting
for the next classes. This Christmas Eve, our new choir (40+) will be
singing a beautiful cantata. More and more formally fringe folk are
stepping forward to serve and lead. Roughly 500 people now pack our
sanctuary each week and the artists and musicians, more and more, have
been turned loose to create moving, mystical worship experiences. I
even feel more energized in the pulpit than ever before! We’re reaching
out to our surrounding community now, and we currently are blessed to
see 28% of our attenders now part of our Neighborhood Sedaqah Bible
Studies. Budget-wise, we are running behind our faith total, but praise
the Lord, we are still in the black. Given the size of my staff, the
fact that we haven’t had to dip into the surplus (which was only a month
and a half’s worth after the asset allocation) is truly a tribute to the
Lord’s provision and our constant need to place our faith in Him.

Most of all, I hear from the folks led to stay with me that (a) they are
so excited about the push towards being a multi-Asian, multi-ethic
congregation, one that is more plugged in with the other churches in our
community, b/c they feel the Lord’s pleasure, and (b) they truly believe
that what is taking shape overall is a prototype (my term) for a 21st
century church.

Sorry, didn’t mean to blab on and on. If you get nothing from this
report, it’s that God is faithful, especially as we all risk stepping
out of the status quo and into the kingdom!

Peace,
ken fong
sr. pastor
Evergreen Baptist Church of Los Angeles
Rosemead, CA

——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 13:12:27 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Bill Lee and Affirmative Action

This ongoing dialogue about the connection between character and
competence form our political leaders makes me wonder if ANY of our
prior Presidents would have been able to withstand the microscope of
today. Washington owned slaves, for example. But who knows if he was
faithful to Martha at all times. By now, we’ve all heard how FDR was
unfaithful to Eleanor, yet he proved to be a tremendous leader of this
country during one of its darkest hours. ’nuff said about JFK. I
mention this, not to say that as a Christian adult who votes I should
only be concerned in our, in this case, Presidents’ policies and
decisions. Rather, to make the point that the media scrutinizing that
we all seem to have come to expect is a very recent invention or
switch. The Secret Service and the White House Press Corps, for
example, up through JFK at least, were under explicit orders NOT to leak
out any of the Presidents’ pecadilloes. Now that we know some of the
dirt on them, does that diminish their historical records? Maybe to
some degree. Again, not necessarily using this to endorse Clinton, but
what would you rather have in the White House: a deeply principled
person who didn’t know how to lead this country through a crisis, e.g.,
Carter(?), whom I have always admired, or a person who was obviously
flawed in his/her personal life but was highly capable in leading this
country?

I’m not offering an answer. Just some more grist for the mill.

If any of you are wondering why, after so much silence, I’m being so
chatty now it’s b/c El Nino has confined me to quarters today!

ken fong.

——————————

From: Sze-kar Wan
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 18:11:22 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Appreciation

Thanks to Fenggang for his terrific post on stats and to Ken for sharing
his rich experience with his new church. I’ve learned much. Sze-kar

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:35:55 -0700
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: A CAC perspective

On Sat, 6 Dec 1997 01:32:02 EST TSTseng writes:
>G:
>
>Perhaps some conspiracy theories hold more weight than others? 🙂 –
>Tim
>

On Sat, 06 Dec 1997 13:12:27 -0800 Ken Fong
writes:

>. ’nuff said about JFK.

Pastor Ken, I guess when it rains in California it really pours…and
this is well put, too!

🙂 G

——————————

From: Fenggang Yang
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 19:58:23 -0600
Subject: CAC_Mail: going beyond Chinese boundaries

– —–Original Message—–
From: Fenggang Yang
To: kenfong@earthlink.net
Date: Saturday, December 06, 1997 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: going beyond Chinese boundaries

I have been fascinated by the existence of the Evengreen Church. Thank
you, Pastor Ken Fong, for finally sharing some stories of your church.
[I think I asked you about your church a while ago]. I am very
interested in knowing more about it. Also, the new church by Brian H
Owyoung is similarly interesting. It seems that some, or many, CACs are
making efforts to go beyond Chinese ethnic and cultural boundaries. I
want to share with you that not only ABCs are trying this, some OBC
Christian leaders are also pioneering toward that direction. The first
time I heard of the call for Chinese churches to go beyond Chinese
boundaries was during the Chinese Mission ’95 in Washington DC from Rev.
Thomas Wang (Wang Yongxin). At that time I thought it was a radical
idea at this time of history. However, in Houston I have seen real
efforts of putting the idea into practice. The Houston Chinese Church,
the largest Chinese church in Houston, has started a daughtor church in
this summer with the name of “Fort Bend Community Church,” intending to
serve not only Chinese residents there, but also non-Chinese people in
the community. It is too early to tell whether they will succeed. I’m
watching it closely with sociologist eyes.

Questions: are there similar efforts in other parts of the U.S.? How
were those church-plantings started? i.g., where did the leaders get
the inspiration? is there denominational or parachurch support? Also,
what strategies have been used to achieve the goals and how effective
are they? While these questions are out of my personal and professional
curiosity, a collection of the answers to these questions may help
others who want to start similar ministries.
– —————————————————————
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 23:12:03 -0800
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: going beyond Chinese boundaries

Fenggang,

You know, when I was writing all those particulars down, I was thinking
“Gee, this will answer those questions that F.Y. posed to me awhile back
that I didn’t have the energy to respond to at the time.” You’re
welcome.

Here’s what I know as far as multi-Asian or multi-Asian/ethnic churches
in the U.S. right now:
Evergreen Baptist-of the San Gabriel Valley/ABC-USA
Pastored by my former Sr. Described somewhat in my earlier email.
Although there are some nonAsians there, their church is predominantly
AsiAm (50% Chinese, 40% JA, 3% KA) and, for the time being, they are
sticking with the previous demographic description, i.e.,
“English-speaking AsiAms and those who closely identify with that
emerging subculture.” Everything is done in English.

Berkeley Christian Laymen Church
Rev. Wayne Ogimachi
Arose out of the tiny “nondenominational movement” in Japan. Since
Wayne’s being there (10+ yrs), the church has grown quite a bit,
attracting a good number of ABCs, especially churched ones from the Bay
Area. Still has a Japan. lang. component in the mornings, though I’m
sure quite small. Wayne can tell you much more about it.

Sturge Presbyterian Church, San Mateo, CA/PC (which one, I’m not sure)
Rev. Gerald Chinen
Dead mainline church for decades. Since Gerald’s coming over five
years ago, there’s been quite a lot of interest from others.
Historically Japanese work; don’t know if they have a language component
anymore…I’m pretty sure Gerald can’t speak Chinese. Like I theorized
in my book several years ago, it doesn’t surprise me that ABCs who
aren’t satisfied with current Chinese churches are checking out what
were originally JA churches. JAs have the most ‘westernized’
subculture. Thus, I believe that as their ‘issei’ die out in the next
10 years and as their offspring continue to marry out at the highest
rate of any group in this country, it only makes sense that more of
these JA churches can convert to AsiAm or like what we’re doing.

Asian American (?) Church, outside of Dallas
Rev. Allan Wong (?)
You’d probably know more about this, Fenggang, than me. Met him
this summer and was pleasantly surprised to hear that his church is
moving in the English-only, AsiAm direction. He’s currently working on
his DMin on this subject.

Newsong Community Church, Irvine, CA/independent, but probably aligning
with Covenant
Rev. David Gibbons
Planted less than 4 years ago by Gibbons, it began as a AsiAm church
(80% KA) but has since been taking deliberate steps to be
multe-Asian/ethnic (now only 40% KA out of about 350 people). Gibbons
is half KA. A real entrepeneur.

Parkwood Community Church, outside of Chicago, IL/independent, but
probably aligning with Covenant
Rev. Greg Wong, Rev. Peter Cha, Dr. Stephen Kim(?)
Planted 2 years ago by a bunch of AsiAm IVCF alums and current and
former staff (like Jeanette Yep). All English. ABC, KA, JA, and
probably some others.

Cornerstone Community Church, east Seattle, WA/roots in ABC/USA but
sponsored by Conservative Baptist
Pastor Joe Yoshihara
Planted 2 years ago, with a great deal of animosity from existing
local churches. All English. ABC, KA, JA. Heard it’s doing quite
well.

Cornerstone Community Church, Cerritos, CA/independent?
Rev. Donald Moy
Planted about 6 years ago by Chicago-bred ABC pastor (Moy) who was
intrigued by the opportunity to start a Willowcreek-style church for
AsiAms. I don’t have anything current on them. I think their pastor is
on CAC.

Gateway Christian Church, Walnut, CA/ABC-USA
Pastor Troy Wong
Planted 3 years ago by Evergreen, it is AsiAm, all English. Going
through a ‘hive’ of sorts now themselves as the other founding pastor,
Kevin Doi, is leaving to start an AsiAm church in North Irvine,
sponsored by EBC.SGV, by next March.

Sacramento Asian American Ministries (SAAM), Sacto, CA/ABC-USA
Pastor Richard Ross
Planted 10 years ago by some members of my family and others who
felt led to split off from FCBC, Sacto. All English. ABC, JA, some KA,
a few Caucasian.

Those are the ones that come immediately to mind. I’m sure there are
others. Anyone want to add to the list?

Ken Fong
Sr. Pastor
EBC.LA
Rosemead, CA

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 03:00:16 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Pro-life Challenges

Dear Tim:

Thanks for sharing some of your insights into the pro-life issues.

On Sat, 6 Dec 1997 01:05:54 EST TSTseng writes:

>While I admire your passions about the right of life of the unborn
>(and again,
>I am also pro-life), the anger directed at Clinton by many pro-life
>Christians
>seems a bit excessive, IMHO. No president, Republican or Democrat,
>since Roe
>v. Wade, has ever really put any muscle behind their “prolife”
>rhetoric (in in
>Clinton’s case, the “making abortion rare” rhetoric). Even today’s
>Republican
>Party and ex-Christian Coalition director Ralph Reed are down playing
>the anti-abortion position.

Granted, both sides (Repub. & Dems.) have their share in the
responsibility
of not helping to decrease the number of abortions. But there is still a

night & day difference between being “pro-life” & not doing enough vs.
being
“pro-abortion” & advocating policies which actually increase the number
of
abortions. (eg. with a stroke of the presidential pen: vetoing the
partial-birth
abortion ban, allowing abortions on military bases, actively promoting
FDA
fast-track approval of RU-486, pushing for tax-payer funded abortions,
etc.)
How can one even begin to compare the stark differences? One might dare
say that absolutely nothing was done to “make abortion rare” while many
things were done to help make abortions more common during these 2
presidential terms. (BTW, there are issues where I do agree with Clinton
and there are others where I disagree. However, this abortion issue
is a big doozy!) Clinton is not the enemy. I & many believers do pray
for
him as he leads this nation. However, with much trepidation, many
pro-life
believers, feel a responsibility to speak out with righteous anger.

>(BTW, I read in today’s newspaper that abortions in the U.S. have
>declined by
>5% this past year – good news, IMHO)

No need to be humble about that opinion, Tim. 🙂 I would agree with you
&
shout a big AMEN whenever unborn lives can be spared! The article
I read said that there were 1,210,883 abortions reported in the U.S. in
1995. That is down 4.5% (or 5% rounded off) from the PREVIOUS year of
1994. Unfortunately, preliminary figures show increases nationally for
1996.
(Side note: In New York City, there were 95,205 abortions in 1995. In
1996,
that number increased to 97,800, the highest of all metropolitan cities.)

>Again, the issue I am struggling with is one of consistency among the
>critics
>of Clinton and the traditional “liberal” platforms:
>1. Why would a party that seeks to keep government out of our lives
>want to
>use government to impose a prolife morality? What will the party that
>wants
>to reduce government invasion of our lives do about the corporate
>driven
>consumer culture that is permeating almost every fabric of human
>existence and
>creating the material causes for the eroding of basic values?

You bring up good points again, as in a previous “school choice”
discussion
but that is straying from the main issue of abortion. I have my own
criticisms
of both major political parties so I don’t feel obligated to defend their
particular inconsistencies.

>2. Why is there not the same anger directed at those who would pass
>policies
>which hurt the poor, racial minorities, immigrants, and single mothers
>disproportionately? (i.e., if we must balance the federal budget by
>making
>sacrifices, I’d like to see everyone making proportionate sacrifices).
> I
>remember when Reagan ran for office, he assured everyone that his
>”trickle
>down” theories would not cut off the safety net for the poorest.
>Contrast
>that with Bush-Clinton or Dole-Clinton! In the last two presidential
>elections, the poorest were the problem! They are the ones with
>cultural
>character flaws, without the work ethic, etc. Wouldn’t a consistent
>pro-life
>policy take these lives into consideration?

I agree that a consistent pro-life view would also advocate policies
of justice & compassion, especially for the “least of these.” Again, I
cannot defend the actions of previous officials nor speak for them. At
the same time, we cannot assume that the passionate pro-life
defenders of the unborn do not also advocate policies of mercy for
the racial minorities, the poor & the sick. There are many
believers who do not fit neatly into either “political package.”

> In an issue of CT
>several months ago which traced the career of Francis Schaeffer, it
>became
>clear that an evangelical consensus on the prolife and family values
>agenda
>was not reached (and there is probably not one today) in the 1970s.
>Not until
>late in Schaeffer’s life did the abortion issue suddenly become THE
>single issue.

I remember reading Schaeffer’s _How Then Shall We Live?_ about
10 years ago. I don’t remember all the details but I do recall how he
emphasized the links between abortion, infanticide, & euthanasia.
Schaeffer painted a prophetic picture of the moral slippery slope
that America faces today.

A critical foundational belief lies with an individual’s & society’s
views
of the sacredness of human life. If human life (from conception to
natural
death) has great worth as viewed by God, then society needs to take
steps to prevent the taking of that life by abortion. Once society can
arbitrarily end the lives of the unborn, then those “imperfect” babies
with
congenital defects or other mental/physical disabilities are next. Hence,

the present increasing prevalence of sex-selection and “defective baby”
abortions & infanticides. If in society’s “wisdom” it is best to end the
infant
lives of the imperfect or unwanted then aren’t the elderly also “useless”

and “unwanted?” Euthanasia would “serve” a purpose by helping to save
scarce health care resources & also “help” to end the suffering of the
elderly.

Human life has been further devalued ever since the abortion-on-
demand mentality became popularized. Too often do we read about
another baby being killed immediately after birth by his/her parent.
“If children can be so easily & legally aborted then why not kill them
after birth?” an overwhelmed teenaged mother might think. “If babies
can be thrown away, then why not throw away the old & chronically sick?”
pro-euthanasia advocates might think. Pushing this mentality to the
extreme, then why even have policies of compassion for poor, the
minorities, & the disadvantaged? America is getting further & further
down this “slippery slope.” A major crack started with abortions & the
eventual societal dismantling of the biblical view of the sanctity of
human life.

Perhaps that is one reason why many pro-life believers see the
abortion issue as being so critical to the moral underpinning of this
nation. Many advocates speak & fight for issues of a political/philo-
sophical/cultural nature which involve issues of discrimination,
injustice,
suffering, unfair sacrifices, abuse, etc. which are all wrong. However,
the
abortion issue is unique in that it is an issue of life & death for those
who CANNOT speak for themselves. And if concerned believers don’t
speak for the unborn, who will?

>So I continue to contend that our generation of Chinese American
>Christians
>must learn discernment and develop the ability to distinguish between
>rhetoric
>and reality. We need to better exegete the (sub)culture of those to
>whom God
>has called us to minister. Sze-kar calls it “self-determination” –
>and I
>agree with him. – Tim

I also agree. Wise discerning biblical contextualization (if I interpret
your
statements correctly) needs to occur, regardless of political persuasion,
to increase one’s ministry effectiveness.

Some believers do have a burden to minister in this pro-life arena.. It
is
at times hard & lonely. But to the believer, obedience to the Lord is
central.
In the final analysis, the imperfections & inconsistencies of a
particular
political party/church, political/religous leader, or political
policy/theological
interpretation should not and does not negate the truth that “Abortion
stops
a beating heart” and that believers have a responsibility to help save
those
young, innocent, helpless lives.

In Him,
J. Chang

——————————

From: Rlfong
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 04:09:42 EST
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Chinese-American Demographics

In a message dated 97-12-07 04:03:44 EST, JLoFEC@AOL.COM writes:

<>

by this comment, do you mean ABC ministries are under-represented in the
effort?

Ronnie Fong
Fremont, CA

——————————

From: JLoFEC@aol.com
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:51:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Chinese-American Demographics

Rlfong@aol.com wrote,

<>

>>by this comment, do you mean ABC ministries are under-represented in the
effort?

yes. that’s what i meant.

john

——————————

From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 14:35:49 -0700
Subject: CAC_Mail: FYI–g

<>

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:53:26 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: going beyond Chinese boundaries

re: Ken Fong’s list of AsAm churches

Great list to post on CAC! Thank you! Of course I’ll be adding the ones
I don’t have to my personal web site indexing the same, Index of Asian
American Ministries, at http://members.aol.com/djchuang/asian.htm

I would add notably CACer Steven Wong who is
church planting a new AsAm church in Northern Cal, San Jose/ Los Altos
area, now called Grace Community Church, affiliated with Ev.Covenant.

And secondly, the church I am on staff with, Ambassador Bible Church,
in Falls Church VA (metro Washington DC area),
http://www.tidalwave.net/~rchang/ , which is affiliated with Ev.Free,
and touts as a multiethnic church.

DJ

On 6 Dec 97 at 23:12, Ken Fong wrote:

> Here’s what I know as far as multi-Asian or multi-Asian/ethnic
> churches in the U.S. right now:
> Evergreen Baptist-of the San Gabriel Valley/ABC-USA
> Berkeley Christian Laymen Church
> Sturge Presbyterian Church, San Mateo, CA/PC
> Asian American (?) Church, outside of Dallas + w/SBC
> Newsong Community Church, Irvine, CA/independent
> Parkwood Community Church, outside of Chicago, IL/independent
> Cornerstone Community Church, east Seattle, WA/roots in ABC/USA
> Cornerstone Community Church, Cerritos, CA/independent?
> Gateway Christian Church, Walnut, CA/ABC-USA
> Sacramento Asian American Ministries (SAAM), Sacto, CA/ABC-USA
– —
*

——————————

From: David Wong
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 23:55:41 -0500
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: going beyond Chinese boundaries

DJ Chuang wrote:
>
> re: Ken Fong’s list of AsAm churches
>
> Great list to post on CAC! Thank you! Of course I’ll be adding the ones
> I don’t have to my personal web site indexing the same, Index of Asian
> American Ministries, at http://members.aol.com/djchuang/asian.htm
>
> I would add notably CACer Steven Wong who is
> church planting a new AsAm church in Northern Cal, San Jose/ Los Altos
> area, now called Grace Community Church, affiliated with Ev.Covenant.
>
> And secondly, the church I am on staff with, Ambassador Bible Church,
> in Falls Church VA (metro Washington DC area),
> http://www.tidalwave.net/~rchang/ , which is affiliated with Ev.Free,
> and touts as a multiethnic church.
>
> DJ
>
> On 6 Dec 97 at 23:12, Ken Fong wrote:
>
> > Here’s what I know as far as multi-Asian or multi-Asian/ethnic
> > churches in the U.S. right now:
> > Evergreen Baptist-of the San Gabriel Valley/ABC-USA
> > Berkeley Christian Laymen Church
> > Sturge Presbyterian Church, San Mateo, CA/PC
> > Asian American (?) Church, outside of Dallas + w/SBC
> > Newsong Community Church, Irvine, CA/independent
> > Parkwood Community Church, outside of Chicago, IL/independent
> > Cornerstone Community Church, east Seattle, WA/roots in ABC/USA
> > Cornerstone Community Church, Cerritos, CA/independent?
> > Gateway Christian Church, Walnut, CA/ABC-USA
> > Sacramento Asian American Ministries (SAAM), Sacto, CA/ABC-USA
> —
> *

Hello to friends who hailed from the SF area – Brian Owyoung, Joe Wong
(CDI), Ron Fong….

I am David Wong, just turned 50. I went to Golden Gate Baptist
Theological Seminary in Mill Valley, CA and shepherded the English
congregation at Cumberland Presbyterian Chinese Church in Chinatown, SF
in the mid-70’s.

In 1978, I went to Wheaton, IL under the Christian and Missionary
Alliance to plant a church from scratch. Initially, I intended it to be
purely English speaking, but as Mandarin speaking parents came, I
decided they too need the gospel, so I reluctantly included a
Mandarin-speaking interpreter. I preached in English. The church grew.

It was fun to do church planting. I did my D.Min at Trinity and wrote my
project on “How to plant a Chinese Church in North America.” At the
time, there were few resources on church planting – now they are
everywhere and well written. I taught a few courses on Planting Chinese
Churches in North America at Alliance Theological Seminary in Nyack, NY
while pastoring the Wheaton Chinese Alliance Church.

The Wheaton Church is known as an English speaking church, with the
board members being ABC’s or english speaking in the majority. The
current pastor is from Taiwan who went to Wheaton Graduate School.

After Wheaton, We went to Gaithersburg, Maryland to start our second
church plant in 1985.Again a bilengual service. Today, the church has
two services, as is the church in Wheaton. It takes time to develop a
harmonious relationship in the congregation. Then dividing into two
worship services is no problem. They KEY lies with the pastoral
leadership.

I was born and raised in the Philippines and came to the US in 1971. I
speak four Chinese dialects, but English is my major language. My wife
is American from Tennessee. We have two kids. We were denied a position
with a Chinese church in Texas because a church leader said we, being a
cross-cultural marriage, will prove to be a BAD example for the Chinese
kids. I have no regrets, but thank God because that experience prompted
us to do church planting – where we don’t have to deal with bigotry or
bad leadership. This happened 20 years ago.

In 1991, we began our third church plant – in Georgetown, Washington DC.
We intended it to be international in scope. I believe churches will go
beyond race, as in Asian church or Latino church, to be global or
international. I have two tent-making Associate Pastors. One, an anglo
American, and the other, Hispanic, from Cali, Columbia.

God has blessed the work here the past six years. Worship service is in
English. People from 82 different countries and territories have at one
time or another worshipped with us. This place is very transitional, but
we see ourselves as winning and training internationals to go home and
reach their own people. A Chinese Bible study group we started has now
developed into a church of 40. Last Sunday, we started our first
Hispanic Fellowship, with the intend that two or three years from now,
it will develop into a church.

I hesitate to jump into the CAC discussion. I feel that AA is a
disservice to minorities, specially African-Americans who were fed a
line by the likes of Jesse Jackson or the black elites, that they
deserve something for the sufferings of their forebears. I agree more
with the views of Harry Lew. Let’s just lay aside the discussion for AA
for now. Have you not had enough?

Our website is http://www.internationalchurch.org Please visit or write.

Regards,
David Wong
Senior Pastor
Washington International Church
P. O. Box 3634
Washington, DC 20007
(202) 298-6110
pastor@internationalchurch.org

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 02:01:01 -0800
Subject: CAC_Mail: Winning Edge

Borrowing the title from Bill Walsh’s (greatest football coach of all
time)
new book, FINDING THE WINNING EDGE, I offer the following edge
to winning ABCs for Christ.

1. Praying for a specific plan. What works for one church most likely
does not work for another . . .God does not want us to rely
on a plan or method but on Him. Just look at the myriad of
methods God used in Scripture: sling shot, 10 plagues,
march seven times around Jericho, dip seven times in Jordan,
spit and mud to heal, etc. How many times did God repeat a
method?

2. Multi-generational church generally more effective than a
multi-ethnic church for reaching ABCs. In the business
world, the best, most profitable companies have a niche.
No company or church can be all things to all people.
Providing ministries for all ages in the family is tough
enough, and
certainly one of the keys to reaching the “unsaved 90%” is to
reach the ABC and family (can involve 3 generations).
Many situations have the parents going to one church and
children going to another.

[Churches like Evergreen, multi-ethnic, is unique. Again, I
point to her as an example of God’s specific plan for a
church rather than a pattern for all to imitate. Ken disagrees.]

3. Use what God gives you rather than try to be something God did not
give you. If God made you a “cow,” you can guess your
ministry is to be a “steak” or “hamburger.” How’s that for a
metaphorical illustration? So it helps to know the spiritual
gifts and personalities and talents, etc in the church.
It is no accident the church has what it has . . .
because Jesus said, ” I will build my church. . .” and He
equips us.

I believe a Chinese church is blessed if she has a strong
OBC pastor who is secure in who he is and can support an
ABC minister and ministry without reservation. In my past,
any success we had was made possible by the support of
the OBC pastor and thus the support of the OBC congregation.

4. Receive from God His passion and compassion for ABCs, driven by a
vision, empowered by the Spirit, conviction of your message.
And have a core of believers with a like mind and spirit.

bill leong

——————————

From: ohbrudder
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 02:07:20 -0800
Subject: CAC_Mail: ABCs cursed?

Are the ABC’s cursed?
If not, it feels as if we are. Over 25 years in the ministry, I’ve seen
comparatively little progress in reaching our 2nd, 3rd, etc generations
for Christ. Many gifted ABC leaders with great potentials have fallen
and come and gone, planting a lot of seeds without much increase.
Many ABC seminarians can’t get positions or turned down in large
percentages by Chinese churches.

Chinese churches have great difficulties in dealing with ABCs . . .
volumes written on that . . . and white churches make no special
efforts to reach us and draws maybe a hand full.

ABCs are in numbers disproportionately greater than other minorities
in American universities but woefully disproportionately smaller in
churches. I did a survey while in seminary in the mid-70’s of the
LA area . . .called every known Chinese church listed in the yellow
pages . . .bottom line: estimated 1%
of total Chinese population . . .okay if one looks at it sideways,
stretch this and that, maybe 2%. But what difference does it make
if 90% or 99% of our generation is going to hell? It’s still a
grave tragedy happening before our eyes.

We, the “remnant” God has saved are the hope of our bros’ (and sis’).
The enemy is winning this one . . .right now. I agree with John that
whatever solution or plan, prayer must be a prominent part . . .
and I add not just with the words of prayer but tears, tears, and
more tears to be sown to reap with joy. May God move us with
compassion and call us to this warfare that can be won only
thru prayer.

bill leong

——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 23:12:02 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Winning Edge

> [Churches like Evergreen, multi-ethnic, is unique. Again, I
> point to her as an example of God’s specific plan for a
> church rather than a pattern for all to imitate. Ken disagrees.]
>

Actually, I never said (I don’t think) that all our churches should use the
same model, whether it’s multi-ethnic or otherwise. I am an advocate of
multiple models for many of the same reasons listed by bill leong. I only
described what’s happening here at EBC.LA so others would know what else is
possible given the right conditions.

ken fong.

——————————

From: JWongCDI@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:58:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CAC_Mail: Nice report

Ken;
That was a great summation/report of your church:
I am excited for you; the exhilartion and the adventure His Spirit is taking
Evergreen into. This is an opportunity, in having freedom from traditional
patterns, to explore for God’s wisdom and will.

It may be a “proto-type” church for the 21st Century, but not THE proto-type.
I suspect many types will still flourish.
I hope that in the 21st century, you can do an analysis of the strengths and
the lacks found in your proto-type when compared with more traditional types.
Perhaps the existence of many different types of churches, will enable us to
better discern the qualities in the original design for His church.

Meanwhile, May our Lord grant you a great adventure and experience!

My wish for a wonderful holiday season to you CACers.

Joe

——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 00:04:52 -0800
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: Nice report

thanks, Joe. If you noticed, I was careful to say “a” prototype. Far
be it from me to be so grandiose!

onward and upward! ken.

——————————

From: jtc10@juno.com (J Chang)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:07:30 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Crisis Pregnancy Centers

Dear Louis:

On Fri, 5 Dec 1997 16:43:21 EST AsianPK writes:

>I have had the privilege of being involved with our local Crisis
>Pregnancy Center for the past 10 years, the past 5 years serving
>on their Board of Directors.

>For the first 7-8 years of my pastoral ministry I had pretty much
>ignored the abortion issue dismissing it as a “political issue.” I
>thank God for a dedicated Asian American Christian pro life doctor
>in this area who was persistent in helping me to better understand
>what a serious moral issue abortion really is.

Thanks again for your encouragement! I have also been involved
in a local crisis pregnancy center (CPC) in the NYC area. I served
as president on the Board of Directors for 5 years. We have both
probably seen how CPCs can be very effective ministries in the
front lines of providing women alternatives to abortion.

When I was a volunteer male counselor in a Chicago CPC, God gave
significant openings for ministry to male & female clients in crisis
pregnancy situations. Clients from various backgrounds (H.S. drop-out,
gang member, unemployed, single parent, minorities, non-believers
AND believers) came because someone cared & shared with support
spiritually, emotionally, & practically (free pregnancy testing, baby
clothes,
maternity clothes, etc.) In one year, the CPC in Chicago had 174 women
who carried their pregnancies to term & 24 women who committed their
lives to Christ. That’s 174 babies saved from physical death & 24 souls
saved from spiritual death! This type of ministry really works as it
reaches
into the community where churches don’t normally reach.

Not many people know about it, but day in, day out, crisis pregnancy
centers
across the nation (over 4,000) are quietly touching the lives of children
&
women in ways we may not be able to measure eternally. The irony is that
many believers, pastors, & churches may not even be aware of the CPCs.
Many
of those CPCs are small centers operating on shoe-string budgets helped
by the faithful financial support of a few believers, giving averages of
$15-$25
each. Meanwhile, compare that with Planned Parenthood, the nation’s top
abortion
provider, which receives millions in contributions every year, (What’s
wrong with
this picture?) & many of which come from huge familiar corporate entities

(issues of discernment in spending/selective boycotts/consumer
responsibility &
biblical stewardship of resources pops up here, but maybe to be addressed

another time).

Anyway, I was wondering if you could share a little about the journey of
how
you gradually became convinced that abortion was a serious moral issue.
How did your dedicated Asian American Christian pro life doctor friend
persuade you to eventually get involved in a tangible way? How has your
center
in CA been used by God to minister to those in crisis? What have been
some
ways this issue has been/could be addressed in the pastoral ministry?

In Him,
J. Chang

——————————

From: TSTseng
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:01:07 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Fwd: AAASCommunity: My America Screenings Available–Nationwide

CACers:

Been reduced to lurking lately – too many writing assignments to complete.
But I wanted to forward to you info about the following film – it’s excellent
(and not really about Buddhism). – Tim

– ————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com
– ————————————————————

From: Tajimapena
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:15:46 EST
To: aaasposts@uclink4.berkeley.edu
Subject: AAASCommunity: AAASPosts: My America Screenings Available–Nationwide

==================================================================
* This is email from the News & Announcements list (AAASPosts) of
* the Email Network of the Association for Asian American Studies.
– —————————————————————–
* For more information about the list and the AAAS Email Network,
* email a request to .
– —————————————————————–
* For information about AAAS membership, email a request to
* our national office at .
==================================================================
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact Juli Kang or Lara Kaminsky
tel. (310) 479-2040, fax. (310) 477-2653,

“MY AMERICA…OR HONK IF YOU LOVE BUDDHA”
Sundance Film Festival Award Winner
1998 SCREENING DATES AVAILABLE

Beginning in January, 1998, filmmaker Renee Tajima-Peña will continue the
national road tour of MY AMERICA…OR HONK IF YOU LOVE BUDDHA, her rollicking
documentary in search of Asian America. If your school or group is interested
in sponsoring a screening while the filmmaker is in your area, please contact
Juli Kang or Lara Kaminsky for rates and scheduling.

SCREENING DATES:
January (date TBD) – University of California at Santa Barbara
January 29 – Spokane Falls Community College, Spokane, Washington
February 20 – Cornell University, Ithaca, New York
March (date TBD) – Macalaster College, Minneapolis, Minnesota
March 1 – Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
March 8 – Asian Pacific American Film Festival, San Francisco, California
April (date TBD) – Cal State Fullerton, Fullerton, California
April (date TBD) – Washington, D.C.

ABOUT THE FILM
In MY AMERICA…OR HONK IF YOU LOVE BUDDHA, producer/director Tajima-Peña
recalls her childhood travels in the 1960s and 70s, when her family would
drive for days and never see another Asian face. More than 20 years later,
Tajima-Peña hits the blacktop once again to explore with her own brand of wry
wit just how much the racial and cultural landscape of America has changed.
With Victor Wong (Joy Luck Club, The Last Emperor) as her “road guru,” Tajima-
Peña sets out to search for the new American identity that will arise from the
multi-culti hoi-palloi that is America at the end of the 20th century.

In New Orleans, the Burtanog sisters, eighth generation Louisianan Filipinas,
describe growing up as “honorary whites.” In Seattle, a pair of Korean
American rappers known as The Seoul Brothers adopt rap and hip-hop to express
the political awakening of a new generation. In Mississippi she films the
legendary activist Yuri Kochiyama and in Los Angeles, she meets a young
student named Alyssa Kang, who risks arrest fighting for immigrant rights.
Throughout her travels, Tajima-Peña pokes fun at the stereotypes that color
attitudes towards Asians with characters like Mr. Choi, a Chinatown fortune
cookie maker who is a veritable “Horatio Alger on amphetamines.”

MY AMERICA…OR HONK IF YOU LOVE BUDDHA is a rollicking ride across this
changing terrain.

WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING ABOUT “MY AMERICA”

A movable feast, Asian American style
– Angelo Ragaza, Editor, A Magazine

Delightfully wry…
– Los Angeles Times

Slyly provocative, utterly intrepid.
– The Village Voice

Poignant and powerful, My America…packs an Oscar-caliber punch.
– Screen Source

Sharp and compelling…WONDERFUL!
– Los Angeles Weekly

Tajima weaves a rich tapestry of people and events, of memory and desire,
showing us the
continuities and discontinuities of Asian America across the decades. A must
not only for anyone interested in Asian American studies but also for all
students of American culture.
– Elaine Kim, Chair, Ethnic Studies Department, UC Berkeley

If Asian Americans have too often been cast as spectators in the drama of
black/white America, MY AMERICA restores their centrality.
– B. Ruby Rich, Sundance Film Festival

Educational, entertaining, and visually stunning, MY AMERICA captures the
complexities of Asian American lives–and the changing American racial
landscape– of the last four decades.
– Yen Le Espiritu, President, Association of Asian American Studies

What happens when the ideals of an earlier Asian American movement encounter
the new post-1965 Asian immigrants – in all their unexpected cultural,
economic, and political heterogeneity? MY AMERICA answers this question in a
witty, smart, and poignant film.
– Lisa Lowe, UC San Diego

MY AMERICA is a rare glimpse into what it means to be an Asian American &
multicultural today–with all its hopes, contradictions, humour and humanity.
– Russell Leong, Editor, Moving the Image

Loose and funny…People are talking about MY AMERICA.
– New York Daily News

MY AMERICA captures our hearts by giving us the soul of Asian Pacific America.
It is a remarkable film with universal appeal.
– Rockwell Chin, Dir., NYC Human Rights Commission

MY AMERICA is a great discussion starter. It interweaves history and current
events in a personalized format that is very moving for students (and their
teacher as well). I recommend it highly.
– Philip Tajitsu Nash, Univ. of Maryland

================================================================
* AAASCommunity, the Discussion & News list of the
* Email Network of the Association for Asian American Studies
– —————————————————————
* Coordinator:
================================================================

——————————

From: Ken Fong
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:01:28 -0800
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Fwd: AAASCommunity: My America Screenings Available–Nationwide

I’ve seen “My America” twice and even spoke with the director, Renee.
Her late uncle was a JA Presby. pastor in LA many years ago and her
cousin is a Presby pastor, too, although she doesn’t claim to be a
believer. We got quite a number of our church folk to go. Since the
film touches on the struggles of Chinese-, Laotian-, Filipino-,
Japanese-, and Korean-Americans, it was quite helpful in bringing out
certain identity issues for these groups in our church community.

ken fong.

——————————

From: DC Chuang
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:17:48 EST
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Bill Lee and Affirmative Action

In a message dated 97-12-06 16:31:36 EST, you write:

<>

Hmmm, I haven’t really thought of this discussion as one between character and
competence. Can one honestly say that Clinton is more competent that George
Bush, who lead us through the Gulf War and Bob Dole, a Senator for 20 or so
odd years?

Besides do the majority of people vote based on competency? From everything
I’ve read, the answer is “no”. So if it is based on policy, what good is it
if you can’t trust the guy to keep his word and his behavior could be
clinically classified as anti-social.
Mind you this is not the result of a media smear campaign nor did it surface
under intense public scrutiny, Clinton demonstrates it himself, sometimes
daily. You just have to open your eyes. Now I ask again, how can someone who
is fully aware of this, in good conscience vote for such a person?

<>

Bad example, you’re not comparing apples to apples. It’s not his personal
life that is in question, it is whether he can be trusted to do *anything* he
says.

Still puzzled, DC

——————————

From: wkmoy@juno.com
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:32:36 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: FYI: AA article & API Census Bureau stats

CAC, Just wanted to share the info about what’s out there . . .

Our youth pastor was looking for SJ Mercury article dated Wed
12/10/97 about “Asian American Young found better educated” which
included stats based on Census Bureau figures from March 1996 Current
Pop Survey.

ARTICLE SUMMARY: Asian Americans living in this country tend to be
younger & better educated than other Americans. They are more likely to
live in cities and less likely to be divorced, Census Bureau figures
show. A profile of the nation’s 9,653,000 Asians & Pacific Islanders was
released by the bureau Tues, based on the Mar 96 Current Pop Survey. The
group represents about 3.7 percent of the pop.

Found old stats: http://www.census.gov/ Press-Release/cb95-99.txt.
Article titled “Stat Facts for API Heritage Month” 5/23/95

(Same Updated(?) article called “Asian & Pacific Islander Population” :
http://ww.census.gov/population/www/pop-profile/apipop.html

Peace, Wilbur
c/oCE Intern @ Sunset Chinese Baptist Church (415)665-5550
3635 Lawton St, San Francisco, CA 94122 FAX: 665-4575
e-mail: wkmoy@juno.com office: (415) 665-9749

——————————

From: DC Chuang
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:09:29 EST
Subject: CAC_Mail: Some Statistics

Question is how much does the Christian population differ? What about Asian
Christians?
– ——————————————-
Some Statistics about us Americans. Did you know that…

* 91% of us lie regularly.
* 27% admit to cheating on a test or quiz.
* 29% admit they’ve intentionally stolen something from a
store.
* 90% believe in divine retribution.
* 10% believe in the 10 Commandments.
* 58.4% have called into work sick when we weren’t.
* 10% of us switch tags in the store to pay less for an
item.
* How far would you go for $10 million? 25% would abandon
their friends, family, and religion. 7% would murder.

——————————

From: “DJ Chuang”
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:22:59 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: PNDAACs

Date sent: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:25:50 -0500 (EST)
***** Forwarded Message *****

From: The Yees
Subject: PNDAACs

Dear CACers –

My belated thanks also to Ken Fong for his list of intentionally
AsAm churches; and even more so for caring enough to stay abreast
of them. One minor correction: Chicago’s Parkwood Community Church’s
staff pastor is Greg YEE, not Wong (and is my esteemed brother in the
flesh, which is why I bother to note this!).

I’d like to offer a different list: PNDAACs in the mid/south Alameda
County area (on the east side of San Francisco Bay, between Oakland and
Silicon Valley). What are PNDAACs? Pretty New Dinky Asian American
Churches, one of which I pastor. Including only all-English speaking
churches not identified with only one ethnicity (Chinese, Japanese,
etc.), we have:

1989 East Bay Bible Church (Fremont)
Bill Jang, independent (45)
1991 Valley Gate Chapel (Pleasanton)
(open; formerly Kenton Jang), Southern Baptist (35)
1991 New Life Christian Fellowship (Castro Valley)
Russell Yee, American Baptist (40)
1992 Lord’s Community (Fremont),
Kevin Hom, Southern Baptist (30)
1993 Fremont Asian Christian Church
Joe Roberts, Holiness (65)
1997 Pathway Community Church (Castro Valley)
Brian Owyoung, Independent (20)

(My apologies for any omissions. I am of course interested to know
whether there are similar scatterings of PNDAACs in other parts of the
country.)

Question: Why so many small churches, and without even one large AsAm
church in the area I’m citing? (Christian Layman/The Lord’s Gate is
further north.) A few stabs:
– Churches are still young
– Short pastoral tenures; less than full-time pastorates
– Inadequate aptitude/training/drive to cultivate “rancher” skills
– Low risk-tolerance – Lack of models and mentoring
– Too many divisions over relatively minor points of doctrine &
practice
– Turf
– “Asian American” still not a mature concept in the Bay Area
(surprisingly–I think there’s still a lot of identification with
Chinese, Japanese, etc.)

– Lay leaders just too stressed out by two-career, long-commute,
kids-in-soccer lifestyles to rise up
– Hard to get land/worship space
– ?

Whaddaya all think? Any advice from the “big boys?”

Russell Yee <- wondering what it all means

——————————

From: "DJ Chuang"
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:35:54 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: closed chapter

CACers,

Thanks for your recent interaction on political issues, especially
those who remained civil and cordial during the discourse, and thanks
also to those who were patient to remain subscribed amidst some moments
which might be perceived heated.

Please now close the chapter on affirmative action, and presidential
perceptions. Let’s move on to the topic at hand re: Asian American
churches.

DJ Chuang, CAC list manager

p.s. note of clarification- DJ Chuang, list manager, and DC Chuang, a
CACer, are different persons, though we are related; I’m the older
brother
– —
*