women in ministry

To: MChowAACF@aol.com
From: Samuel Ling
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Hist. Bkgd. of Stature of Chinese Pastors
Cc: cac@bccn.org

The Chinese church has certainly under-deployed
women, ordained or non-ordained. This was not
always the case. My father’s father’s mother was
a “Bible woman” in the Anglican Church in
Ningpo, China. Women have been systematically
trained and deployed for ministry in China. But
the women’s role in the church issue has been
shipped from America to Chinese circles in recent
years, and the rest is history.
80% of clergy in housechurches in China are
women.
Let’s keep talking…and opening doors.

At 09:16 PM 9/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Again I find myself with thoughts to consider…As a campus minister, what
>about those times I find myself needing to encourage my female students who
>want to be obedient with their lives in the Chinese American church? They go
>and become successful missionaries? Is that their only option? Again, food
>for thought and a need to have the Chinese American church be supportive to
>all people in the church.

— End —

Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 00:30:54 -0700
From: ohbrudder
To: Dennis Low
CC: cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: my ten cent

Thank you Dennis for your kind words. And I believe I’ve met
Joe a long, long time ago . . . He with his gang at FACE has
done much to raise awareness of the ABC plight.

I’ve heard your Home of Christ churches are doing well and thus
I’m sure have much to share with other ABC pastors. Seminaries ought to
include “success” stories like yours–and send future ministers to
shadow you.

These pastors I’ve forementioned are worth meeting if you get a chance.
I don’t know if you’ve worked with OBC pastors and how they’ve helped
you, but I think many are unsung “heroes” of ABC ministries.

There was one specific thing they all did for me. They all intercepted
criticisms from the Chinese side and protected me. They supported me,
built me up, and smooth things out behind the scene. Most of this I
found out later. If I had actually received some of the barbs thrown at
me at that time, I might have been very discouraged or disheartened.
They knew this and protected me. Bless them.

And God’s continual grace to you,

bill leong

— End —

To: “ohbrudder”
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 06:18:13 -0700
From: “GE Liang”
Cc: cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: my ten cent

“Brudder,”

You wrote:

>I am injecting my ten cent worth . . . a week after DJ
>signed me up for this CAC. I haven’t decided whether to thank him yet.

Your verdict may still be out, but we’ll thank DJ for bringing you fresh on board
the CAC! I’ll also put in two minas, leptas or whatever…

You pointed out:
>AN IMPORTANT KEY TO A SUCCESSFUL ABC ministry in an OBC church: an OBC
>pastor who is secure and aware of the ABC “creature.”

As I was drawn to read your first message again, it dawned on me that those OBC pastors
who aren’t as secure, or aware of the ABC “creature” that lurks in the ranks of their
children, youth and young adults, could benefit from the wisdom of the “outstanding
OBC” pastors that you have encountered.

Are you in the position to invite some of them to share their insights in publications
and journals commonly read by OBC pastors and leaders? These leaders will much more
likely look to articles written in their mediums and language(s) of choice than to
something like the CAC for ideas. Samuel Ling has written and continues to write.
Perhaps some of your mentioned mentors and co-laborers would also be instrumental
and well-received.

Just a thought! It might help some of us…

You also suggested:
>A BIT ABOUT CULTURE. I think dissecting culture as it relates to ABC
>ministry effectiveness is majoring in a minor.

You are quite right about it being a minor. But, for the reasons Greg, Sze-kar,
and, to a degree, even Joseph C. Wong pointed out there is utility and, perhaps,
necessity in becoming at least aware of the differences.

Dissecting makes the CAC discussion “fuller!” Without such discussions, CAC might
lose some of its uniqueness. Anyway, I think culture and cultural differences can
surface not only in ecclesiology, but also in missiology, (Biblical) anthropology,
soteriology, and even eschatology. (Because one or both of them have written on
these topics, I look forward to Fong and Hokema’s overdue treatise on Christianity
and culture.) Hey, some major in the minors to make dime!

One last spin (for the CAC in general). Being aware of CD’s is not just about solving
problems. Our “Christology” as manifested in our lives, love, and lips is where
we should be and strive to be. It is what draws seekers as Bill emphasizes. However,
this is not likely to be where the people of our “ripened” fields are. Grasping
the “delta” between where they are at (the descriptive) and where they should be
and can be (the normative/heuristic) aids evangelism, discipleship and the our role
in God’s work of on-going sanctification. How we incorporate our understanding of
CD’s should then be the making of disciples and not just the reengineering of church
architecture – “rearrangement of deck chairs.”

Well, I let my two leptas become even more verbose than your ten cents! =)


Guo En Liang
Washington, DC
|
The one who carves the Buddha never worships it.
– Chinese proverb
|
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him. Male and
female created he them.
– Genesis 1:27

Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com

— End —

Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 13:42:59 -0500
From: OHBRUDDER
To: cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: my ten cent

OHBRUDDER wrote:
>
> GE Liang wrote:
> > You pointed out:
> > >AN IMPORTANT KEY TO A SUCCESSFUL ABC ministry in an OBC church: an OBC
> > >pastor who is secure and aware of the ABC “creature.”
>
> I cannot overemphasize or overstate their importance to winning the ABCs
> of the first two generations (1.5s and 2nd) who have OBC parents. I
> mentioned that the OBC pastors I worked with protected me. As a young
> brash ABC, I stepped on many sensitive OBC toes. Even as an older ABC,
> there is no way to foresee what thin-skins you might run into. But they
> had love that always hope, always protect . . .they had love that covers
> a multitude of sins. Christology in action over culture. And they all
> encouraged their OBC congregation to come to me individually with
> problems regarding their ABC kid. They build me up in front of the OBC
> congregation and even invite me to speak time to time. How can any ABC
> minister crash and not be successful?
>
> > Are you in the position to invite some of them to share their insights in publications
> > and journals commonly read by OBC pastors and leaders?
> >
>
> Yes. You can imagine how busy all pastors are . . . so its low
> probability that they’ll take initiative to approach a publication and
> offer to write. But I think you make a very good suggestion. I’d be glad
> to invite them if there is a definite proposal.
>
> > One last spin (for the CAC in general). Being aware of CD’s is not just about solving
> > problems. Our “Christology” as manifested in our lives, love, and lips is where
>
> Felix Liu is the senior pastor of Evangelical Formosan
> Church(es)—probably the fastest growing Chinese church in America (A
> culture thing: Not all Taiwanese want the Chinese label) the last 10-20
> years. They keep dividing and multiplying. Felix is one of the most
> humble ministers I know. When I was on staff there was a former
> Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Southern Baptist, and ABC, me. Trust me, it
> takes a very special leader to get this motley group to work well
> together. Among many lessons Felix taught me, here is one that
> illustrates, I think, a “Christology” secret of successful ABC ministry:
> It doesn’t matter what the conflict or misunderstanding or problem was,
> in fact I vaguely remember the details. (Over 15 years ago) But Felix on
> a couple of these occasions reminded me to pray, look to the Word, and
> ask what Christ would do. No cultural explanations. No finger-pointing
> as to who is right or wrong. Looking back . . . I understand something
> powerful: “I no longer live, but Christ lives in me . . .” and that
> “Christ in me is the hope of glory.” Christ in me is hope of
> effectiveness as an ABC minister.
>
> Bill Leong

— End —

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:25:07 -0400 (EDT)
To: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: Fwd: AAASCommunity: Postdoctoral and Visiting Scholar Fellowship in Asian Ameri

CACers:
FYI, Tim
———————
Forwarded message:
From: dtn@ucla.edu (Don Nakanish)
Sender: owner-aaascommunity@uclink4.berkeley.edu
To: aaascommunity@uclink.berkeley.edu (AAASPOS), assnaas-socal@uci.edu
Date: 97-09-27 16:11:25 EDT

For immediate release

1998-99 POSTDOCTORAL AND VISITING SCHOLAR FELLOWSHIP IN ASIAN AMERICAN
STUDIES AND ETHNIC STUDIES AT UCLA

The UCLA Asian American Studies Center will offer a fellowship in 1998-99
to a postdoctoral scholar in support of research on Asian Americans. The
fellowship ranges from $23,000 to $28,000 per year plus health benefits and
up to $3,000 in research support. The fellowship can be awarded for less
than a year in which case the stipend is adjusted to the length of the
award, and can be used to supplement sabbatical salaries. The acceptance of
the fellowship carries with it the commitment to make a contribution to the
research activities of the Center, along with the teaching of one course
and a presentation in the Center’s faculty colloquium series. Deadline for
application and supporting documents is December 31, 1997. For an
application form or more information, please contact:

Dr. Enrique DeLa Cruz, Assistant Director
UCLA Asian American Studies Center
3230 Campbell Hall
P.O. Box 951546
Los Angeles, CA 90095-1546
310.825.2974 (phone)
310.206.9844 (fax)
tulisan@ucla.edu (e-mail)

The UCLA Asian American Studies Center’s new, redesigned web page is
located at http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/aasc.

Postdoctoral fellowships in African American Studies, American Indian
Studies, and Chicano Studies are also available through the UCLA Center for
African American Studies (310.206.8267), American Indian Studies Center
(310.825.7315), and Chicano Studies Research Center (310.825.2363). For
more general information, please contact the UCLA Institute of American
Cultures (310.206.2557), or look at its web page at
http://www.gdnet.ucla.edu/iacweb/iachome.htm.

Don Nakanishi
Director and Professor
UCLA Asian American Studies Center
3230 Campbell Hall
Los Angeles, CA 90095-1546
phone: 310.825.2974
fax: 310.206.9844
e-mail: dtn@ucla.edu
web site for Center: http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/aasc

================================================================
* AAASCommunity, the Discussion & News list of the
* Email Network of the Association for Asian American Studies
—————————————————————
* Coordinator:
================================================================

— End —

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:27:14 -0400 (EDT)
To: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: Fwd: H-ETHNIC Digest – 27 Sep 1997 to 28 Sep 1997

CACer:

FYI, Tim Tseng
———————
Forwarded message:
From: LISTSERV@MSU.EDU (Automatic digest processor)
Sender: H-ETHNIC@MSU.EDU (H-NET List on Ethnic History)
To: H-ETHNIC@MSU.EDU (Recipients of H-ETHNIC digests)
Date: 97-09-29 00:21:55 EDT

There is one message totalling 52 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

1. FUND: Postdoc/Visiting Scholar /Asian American Studies and Ethnic
Studies,
UCLA (due 12/31/97)

———————————————————————-

Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:57:50 -0500
From: “Josef J. Barton”
Subject: FUND: Postdoc/Visiting Scholar /Asian American Studies and Ethnic
Studies, UCLA (due 12/31/97)

1998-99 POSTDOCTORAL AND VISITING SCHOLAR FELLOWSHIP IN ASIAN AMERICAN
STUDIES AND ETHNIC STUDIES AT UCLA

The UCLA Asian American Studies Center will offer a fellowship in 1998-99
to a postdoctoral scholar in support of research on Asian Americans. The
fellowship ranges from $23,000 to $28,000 per year plus health benefits and
up to $3,000 in research support. The fellowship can be awarded for less
than a year in which case the stipend is adjusted to the length of the
award, and can be used to supplement sabbatical salaries. The acceptance of
the fellowship carries with it the commitment to make a contribution to the
research activities of the Center, along with the teaching of one course
and a presentation in the Center’s faculty colloquium series. Deadline for
application and supporting documents is December 31, 1997. For an
application form or more information, please contact:

Dr. Enrique DeLa Cruz, Assistant Director
UCLA Asian American Studies Center
3230 Campbell Hall
P.O. Box 951546
Los Angeles, CA 90095-1546
310.825.2974 (phone)
310.206.9844 (fax)
tulisan@ucla.edu (e-mail)

The UCLA Asian American Studies Center’s new, redesigned web page is
located at http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/aasc.

Postdoctoral fellowships in African American Studies, American Indian
Studies, and Chicano Studies are also available through the UCLA Center for
African American Studies (310.206.8267), American Indian Studies Center
(310.825.7315), and Chicano Studies Research Center (310.825.2363). For
more general information, please contact the UCLA Institute of American
Cultures (310.206.2557), or look at its web page at
http://www.gdnet.ucla.edu/iacweb/iachome.htm.

Don Nakanishi
Director and Professor
UCLA Asian American Studies Center
3230 Campbell Hall
Los Angeles, CA 90095-1546
phone: 310.825.2974
fax: 310.206.9844
e-mail: dtn@ucla.edu
web site for Center: http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/aasc

——————————

End of H-ETHNIC Digest – 27 Sep 1997 to 28 Sep 1997
***************************************************

— End —

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:30:37 -0400 (EDT)
To: kenfong@earthlink.net
cc: cac@bccn.org
Subject: CAC_Mail: Leadership

Ken:

I’m also pleased that the CAC list is growing in all these dimensions and I’m
very thankful that you are “in the mix.” I also hope that those of us
academic, seminary professor, politically-minded folks have done a good job
of presenting our passion for the Lord through our deep love for Chinese and
Asian American Christianity! The gift of scholarship, IMHO, must never be
used for the sake of the academic guild or personal career advancement alone.
God has entrusted us – not so much with the gift of scholarship – but with
positions within seminary institutions as bases for strengthening and
encouraging Asian American Churches, pastors, and lay leaders. And if our
scholarship contributes towards that end (which I pray my work will), than
all the better.

I agree with you that “Leadership” is a (if not “the”) critical issue for
Asian American Christians today and I hope that we’ll continue to discuss
this matter. This is one of the reasons why I accepted the presidency of the
Asian American Baptist Caucus. Using the American Baptist Churches as an
example, I want to argue that mentoring for future leadership works best
within the context of a support “structure” (by structure, I mean leadership,
resources, and programs organized to develop leaders, plant churches, support
existing congregations, and advocate for Asian Americans within the
denomination). Like many independent or other denominationally affiliated
Asian American congregations, we have no adequate structure beyond the local
congregation to address the crisis of leadership. But, American Baptist
Asians (and a few other denominations, I imagine) have the potential to
develop a support structure for this very purpose. What we need now are
established and well-respected pastors like yourself to give energy to the
effort. Some of the things that the caucus may do in the next couple of
years will definitely require strong and committed leaders: (1) raising an
endowed seminarian scholarship fund to send Asian Americans to American
Baptist related or approved seminaries; (2) developing pastoral and
theological programs through our Am. Baptist. seminaries and churches that
address the specific needs and concerns of our Asian American congregations;
(3) organizing regional caucus councils led by local pastors and lay leaders
for the purpose of nurturing, supporting, and recruiting strong, godly, and
faithful leaders for our existing and future congregations.

But I see some obstacles:
(1) Finding an “Asian American” voice among 2d-5th generation. To what
degree are we really listening to the Asian Americans we are ministering to?
Are we merely imposing an evangelical or liberal gospel that comes from a
context unrelated (and sometimes oppressive) to Asian Americans’ social,
political, economic, and spiritual circumstances? In other words, how
relevant are issues like racism, gay rights/agenda, feminism, economic
injustice, environmentalism, family values, etc. to our communities? How do
we properly discern the weightier issues? This is more important to me than
gnashing our teeths over ABC/OBC type of issues as important as they are.
(2) A false universalism (or, as I mentioned many months ago, the modern
gnosticism). By this I mean the tendency for many to dismiss our earthly
particularities such as our ethnic, racial, gender, or denominational
traditions. I hear repeatedly, “I’m a Christian first, a Baptist second (or
not at all)” or “the Bible must take primacy (and judge) tradition (or
culture).” But this logic – as truthful as they are in the abstract – cannot
work and is dangerous. It assumes that we can leave our earthly and
enfleshed realities right now. Not even Jesus, who had the option of
remaining above it all, chose to do so (Phil. 2). It also assumes that we
can approach our faith and Scripture untouched by our cultural and historical
experiences. It also undermines any efforts to organize as Asian American
Christians or as a denominational tradition.
(3) Congregational tunnel vision. I believe that we live in a society that
values individualism so strongly that many no longer can see beyond
themselves. While I’ll never give up congregational autonomy, I also resist
total independence and separatism. “Self-navigating” congregations and
ministers are usually blessings to denominations like the American Baptists,
but can also be unable or unwilling to work through theological, ethnic,
racial, political, gender diversity in order to realize Christ’s prayer for
unity.

Asian American Baptists need to overcome these obstacles in order for us to
create a support structure for our future leaders (which is why, on a
different level, I appreciate Louis Lee’s efforts to organize Chinese
Christians, despite my reservations about PK). But I am very hopeful. We
have a number of quality leaders with great potential to guide not only the
80-100 Asian American Baptist congregations in our denomination, but also to
make a positive impact on the entire denomination (so long as we don’t get
sidetracked by and divided over issues that have little relevance to Asian
Americans). So, yes, Ken, I really feel that there is a crying need for
Asian American Christian leadership (pastoral and otherwise) committed to the
biblical mandate to transform lives, church, and society for Christ’s
kingdom.

Tim

In a message dated 9/27/97 2:03:25 AM, kenfong@earthlink.net wrote:

<>

————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com
————————————————————

— End —

To: cac@bccn.org, CAC@emwave.net
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:09:31 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Promise Keepers Stand in the Gap
From: drwong1@juno.com (Richard Wong)

If any of you are planning to come to Washington for the Promise Keeper’s
Stand in the Gap rally on the Mall this Saturday, our church has offered
the use of its parking lot for anyone attending the event. Let’s try to
meet before the event at the church and head down together. So far,
we’re going to try to maintain the following schedule

9:00 a.m. Meet at the CCCGWDC parking lot at 7716 Piney Branch Road
(between University Blvd. and Georgia Avenue, or more precisely, between
Sligo Avenue and Philadephia Ave/East-West Highway) in Silver Spring,
MD.
(Church directions available via http://www.mapblast.com or
http://www.mapquest.com).
9:30 am Walk/Shuttle 1/2 mile to Takoma Park Metro Station (Metro’s Red
Line)
(Metro information available at http://www.wmata.com)
10:30 Exit at Farragut North Metro Station (also Red Line), meet our
pastor’s African-American church contacts
11:00 Arrive at the Mall
12:00 Stand in the Gap begins
(Event schedule is posted at
http://www.promisekeepers.org/manual/sitg/program.htm)
6:00 pm SITG Closes

After the event, we’re planning to join with other Asian PKers for
dinner at Tony Cheng’s Restaurant at 619 H Street (across the street from
the Gallery Place/Chinatown Metro station). The Metro is likely to be
extremely crowded after the event, with an estimated 750,000 guys all
trying to leave all at the same time, so we can either spend hours
standing outside a station, or we can sit down and break bread with other
Asian-American Stand in the Gap attendees.

We’ve worked out a deal with Tony Cheng’s so that dinner will only cost
$10.00 per person, including tax and tip. They’ll give us the second
floor, so that we won’t be disturbed by the usual restaurant noise.
After dinner, we can then ride the Metro to our respective destinations
(Gallery Place provides direct access to the Red, Yellow, and Green
Lines, and access to the Blue and Orange lines are one stop away at Metro
Center).

If you have any questions or need directions, feel free to call me at
(202) 366-1936 (work) or (703) 685-8653 (home). My e-mail address is
posted below.

Hope to see you there!

Richard L. Wong
Chinese Christian Church of Greater Washington, DC
drwong1@juno.com

— End —

From: Zeke3377@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:35:58 -0400 (EDT)
To: cac@bccn.org
Subject: CAC_Mail: OUTREACH CONCERT featuring J U N K O at Garden Grove’s Wintersburg Church

WINTERSBURG PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH
13711 Fairview Avenue
Garden Grove, CA

IN CONCERT – “JUNKO”
Outreach Ministries of Wintersburg Presbyterian Church
For Immediate Release
Tuesday, September 23, 1997

Contact: Fred Tanizaki (714) 740-9405
John Wei (714) 491-7080
Ted Nakamura (310) 816-2966

Garden Grove¾On November 1, 1997, Wintersburg Presbyterian Church will
start their series of outreach concerts with the unique Asian Pacific
American Christian ministry and talents of JUNKO. This series of outreach
concerts at Wintersburg Presbyterian Church is designed to address the
needs of the 90 to 95% of Asian Pacific Americans that are unchurched that
exists on today’s school campuses in the Southern California area.

Wintersburg’s first concert features the unique Asian Pacific American
ministry of JUNKO. Her busy ministry has blessed people throughout Japan,
Australia, Hawaii and the U.S. Mainland these past few years. “Live In
Harmony,” the title track off JUNKO’s latest CD, was on their Top 30 list
for 8 weeks at Hawaii’s premier Christian radio Station and was included in
the compilation album “Praising Him Island Style.” – which won the Best
Religious Album of the Year at the 20th annual Na Hoku Hanohano Awards.
(the equivalent of the Grammy’s of Hawaii) In addition, she was a Grand
Prize winner at GMA’s Video Critique Competition, participated in the
latest Marantha! Praise album produced by Stan Endicott and had a cover
interview of “Today’s Christian Woman” magazine. JUNKO states that “Her
true homeland is in heaven, where she will spend time With Christ forever
in the ultimate “Land of the Rising Sun.”“

Opening that night’s concert will be a “Surprise Group” from Wintersburg
Presbyterian Church’s high school youth group. They promise to bring to
bring down the house with their energy, music, message, answers to
questions adults normally don’t ask and their vision from a high school
point of view.

These outreach concerts, starting with the November 1, 1997 concert
featuring “Junko,” will start at 7:30 P.M. and the doors of the church will
open at 7:00 P.M. This event will take place at Wintersburg Presbyterian
Church, which is located at 13711 Fairview Avenue, which is just off the
Garden Grove (22) Freeway. The admission price to these outreach concerts
is free.

Please feel free to gather more information on the event, Wintersburg
Presbyterian Church and Junko, check out their respective web sites located
at http://www.wintersburg.org or http://www.junko.com

For further information on the event or how to participate in these
outreach concerts, please contact the following people: Fred Tanizaki:
(714) 740-9405/zeke3377@aol.com, John Wei (714)
491-7080/jwei422935@aol.com or Ted Nakamura (310) 816-2966/TedN@vdr.com.

— End —

Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 09:33:14 -0700
From: Ken Fong
Organization: Evergreen Baptist Church
To: TSTseng@aol.com
CC: cac@bccn.org
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: Leadership

Tim:

thanks for the kudos. As usual, I find your comments right on target.
I too see how easy it is for us to (a) pretend that culture doesn’t
matter [if anyone really thinks it doesn’t, that all we have to do is
present the culturally-clean gospel, sit down and talk with any active
missionary!]; (b) that our individual churches quite often, either
because we’re nondenom. and independent or because we come from a
tradition of autonomy, are isolated and at times self-serving and even
narcissistic. I have struggled with this second point for years,
grateful to the Lord for the fruit He has given Evergreen over the 18
years I’ve been here, but conscious of our somewhat disengaged posture
with larger issues in our immediate surroundings. Here’s where I
believe many of our struggling mainline churches in particular, if
renewed by God, can provide some good models, what I’m calling
prototypes of 21st century churches. Kerygmatic (proclaiming the gospel
for personal salvation), Diaconiac (serving the needs of the powerless
and the poor), Prophetic (speaking out against injustices and extending
the boundaries of God’s rule) and Koinoniac (building a loving community
of believers). In the past 20 years or so, we in the mainline tradition
have tended to major in the second and third while downplaying the first
and the last. As NT churches, I believe we must dare to display all
four dimensions.

EBCLA, these past two decades, has defied the deathspiral trend of
mainline denom’s, primarily because we switched our emphasis to the
first and the fourth dimensions (and yes, certainly by God’s providence
and grace.) But I’ve been sensing a real restlessness among a growing
number of Christian people for our churches to be a four dimensional
models, not two. And yes, it is taking just as much Spirit-led
leadership to take a typical evangelical church and see it expand the
missing 2 dimensions as it would to expand a more ‘liberal’ mainline
church’s dimensions.

And all this while keeping in mind the ongoing challenge of doing
ministry, being the church, in a rapidly changing pluralistic,
postmodern setting. And managing to keep your job!

ken fong

— End —

Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 10:06:50 -0700
From: Ken Fong
Organization: Evergreen Baptist Church
To: Samuel Ling
CC: MChowAACF@aol.com, cac@bccn.org
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Hist. Bkgd. of Stature of Chinese Pastors

imho: God has been and is raising up female colleagues to help bring in
the harvest.

more personally: when I was teaching at FTS, many times, the most
outstanding students who seemed to be ripe with potential for harvest
work were women. This made sense to me. Any AsiAm woman who enrolled
in an MDiv program at an evangelical seminary would know going in that
most doors in Asian churches would be closed to her upon graduation.
Thus, those women who go forward, with the strong call of the Lord still
ringing in their ears, are already a highly motivated, very focused
bunch. On the other hand, many (not all) of my male students seemed
less focused and passionate about their calls. Maybe it was because by
virtue of their gender they had all been given the keys to the kingdom
of the Asian church. Maybe they knew, in their heart of hearts, that
they didn’t have to be outstanding simply because the system is set up
to promote them because of their gender. They didn’t have to be “good”
because they were guys. Oftentimes I wanted to grab them by their
shoulders and shake the complacency out of them so that they would
strive to offer their utmost for His highest. Then again, having seen
what has just happened to Robt. Schuller, I’m glad I never did that!!!
😉

ken fong

— End —

From: ArtZech46@aol.com
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 04:09:47 -0400 (EDT)
To: kenfong@earthlink.net
cc: cac@emwave.net, ArtZech46@aol.com
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Leadership

Dear Ken & Tim,
I would like to add my unscholarly opinions to the issue of leadership for
Asian Americans.

1) I have observed a lack of participation of Asians in the wider church
body. Being new to No. Cal I have seen few involved in some of the Christian
community. For example, we have a city wide prayer meeting with about 60
pastors for Santa Clara County. Out of those 50-60 people who meet once a
month to pray for the city & community, only a few Asians show up regularly.
I am one of the few, along with Steve that show up. Why the lack of
participation? One reason may be because we Asians don’t feel connection or
ownership of the community? Are we too tied into our own ethnic grouping?

2) Most leaders have difficulty keeping up with their own ministries and
leadership in the church, let alone to be involved in the greater community.
By the time you cover your regular responsibilities, family, devotional
life, etc., who has time for larger issues? I see that as the plight of the
majority. But I think there are enough of us out there that see the need for
leadership to make it a priority, at least I want to.

3) I agree that we need help with leadership in our community across
denominational lines. It is great that you have a denomination to draw upon
for resources. Unfortunately many other Chinese Am pastors like myself are
in independent churches. There is no larger resource to draw upon or to
offer resources in leadership. (Maybe there is, but I’m not aware of it.)
FACE has tried to offer leadership in promoting ABC ministries but not
focusing on “leadership” issues.

4) It is great that you have been able to mentor people at Evergreen, but
what about the other 95% of Asian Am leaders? They need it, but maybe they
don’t even know they need it? I have seen some guys with 10 years experience
repeated every 2 years.

5) IMHO there is a crisis of leadership in the church as a whole. The
seminaries are producing theological thinkers and preachers, but not leaders.
That is a whole different ball game. When I graduated from Fuller in 1986
there was only one or two courses on leadership, and that was offered by
Bobby Clinton in the School of World Missions. But the class was not
required. I am still learning how to lead.

6) I’m afraid that some of us will never get to first base in leadership.
There is a constant struggle in the Chinese church in defining leadership
and who sets the pace. In my calling to work in a bi-lingual bi-cultural
church I will be #3 or #4 or lower in influence. I am the only ABC on a
ministerial & elder board of 8 others. Not that I do not know how to lead,
but that any innovative ideas, etc., will be bogged down. So, one must learn
how to lead from the back of the pack, and how to influence others, and
become very, very patient. Extremely patient!

Thankfully the church gives me a large amount of autonomy in the English and
Youth ministry I oversee. But others may not have the same freedom I do. I
hope others out there will learn to lead by the person they are, not by a
position. I am gradually learning but it has taken over 10 years to learn by
experience.

I hope this makes sense to you all. My final comment is a question &
challenge.
Will we have to wait for seminaries to take leadership, a denomination, or
what?
Is there someone or a group of Asian American Leaders who can speak for our
community and offer hope & direction to our plight? (Maybe there is and I’m
out of the loop.) Maybe you will develop something out of your So. Cal Asian
American PK conference? (But we don’t want to exclude the women on this
issue.)

I would appreciate any enlightenment or rebuttle upon my comments.

For the Kingdom,
Arthur Lum
Chinese Church in Christ, San Jose
(Silicon Valley)

— End —

To: cac@emwave.net
Cc: corrdpt@fotf.org
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:37:18 -0400
Subject: CAC_Mail: Focus on the Family Statements
From: jtc10@juno.com (John Chang)

Dear CACers:

On Sept. 11th, there was a CAC post of a press release issued by
Mr. Gil Alexander-Moegerle regarding his book about Dr. James
Dobson & Focus on the Family. In fairness to Dr. Dobson & FOTF,
I am now forwarding official statements emailed to me from FOTF in
response to Mr. Alexander-Moegerle’s allegations & book.

In Him,
JTC
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Thanks (JTC) for your email.

We believe the attached statements are responsive to your questions;
hopefully they will clarify the issues of concern to you.

If you have further questions, please feel free to contact us again.

Cory West
Focus on the Family

—————————————-

STATEMENT OF THE FOCUS ON THE FAMILY BOARD OF DIRECTORS

Dated: March 21, 1997

The Board of Directors of Focus on the Family has become aware of Gil
Alexander-Moegerle’s book entitled JAMES DOBSON’S WAR ON
AMERICA. We regret sincerely that a former employee and member of
this Board of Directors has chosen to make outlandish and
unsubstantiated claims about Focus on the Family and its President,
James C. Dobson, Ph.D.

As a Board of Directors, we take very seriously our responsibility to set
policy and direct the course of a ministry which God has so evidently
blessed. In our capacity as Directors, we exercise direction and control
over the financial policies of the ministry, its accounting and tax
reporting
policies, and the manner in which its funds are expended. The financial
statements of the ministry are audited annually by outside, independent
certified public accountants for the specific purpose of assuring us, the
Board of Directors, as well as the general public, of the integrity and
accuracy of the financial records of the ministry. Never once in the
history of this ministry have its auditors questioned the integrity of
its
financial reporting and accounting practices.

We are particularly troubled by the allegations made by Mr.
Alexander-Moegerle that our President, Dr. Dobson, is somehow free
from accountability to this Board of Directors. That is simply untrue.
Dr.
Dobson regularly reports to this Board, at every Board meeting, and
frequently in between, on the financial transactions of the ministry, its
programs and its activities; often, he even reports on his own, personal
writing activities conducted outside the ministry, a matter over which we
have no jurisdiction. With the blessing and the approval of this Board,
Dr.
Dobson does not receive compensation from Focus on the Family, nor
has he ever accepted even one dollar from the ministry.

As a Board of Directors, we are particularly offended by Mr.
Alexander-Moegerle’s assertion that ministry funds have been improperly
used for the personal benefit of individuals, including
Alexander-Moegerle’s former wife. As Mr. Alexander-Moegerle knows,
having served as a Vice President of this organization, and having
participated in the very adoption of the policy, since 1981 Focus on the
Family has followed the practice of making available up to three percent
(3%) of its annual revenue for benevolence purposes to aid those who
are incapable of helping themselves. We are astonished that Mr.
Alexander-Moegerle has so twisted the facts as to place a sinister cast
on good-faith efforts by this ministry to aid his former wife at a time
when he would not do so.

We know of no instance in which the funds of this ministry have been
directed to individuals or organizations for improper purposes. Annually
the audited financial statements of the ministry are presented to us for
review and approval. In each case, we, as a Board, have approved and
ratified those statements.

Another distortion in Mr. Alexander-Moegerle’s book reflects his gross
misrepresentation of his role in the early days of Focus on the Family.
He was _not_ a co-founder, as he asserts. Nor does he have any
current information about the ministry. He resigned April 30, 1987, and
he has had no contact with this organization since. Thus, his claim to
be
an “insider” who is privy to ministry particulars and Dr. Dobson’s
relationships with the staff is patently untrue. Indeed, the entire book
is a
compilation of distortion, extrapolation and falsehoods.

In summary, we are aware of threats by Mr. Alexander-Moegerle in the
past that he would “bring James Dobson down.” We are united in our
opinion that Mr. Alexander-Moegerle’s book is nothing more than his
misguided attempt to carry out his threat. This book represents an
irresponsible attack on a ministry which has so evidently been blessed
by the Lord and slander of a man who has selflessly dedicated himself
for 20 years to the healing of the American family and the advancement
of the Kingdom of God.

As a Board of Directors, we stand squarely behind Dr. Dobson and this
ministry and reaffirm our commitment to its goals and purposes.

(Signed By)
Bobb Biehl, M.A.
Lee Eaton
Ted Engstrom, L.H.D.
Patrick P. Caruana, M.S.
Shirley D. Dobson
Donald P. Hodel
Kay Coles James
Elsa D. Prince
Michael Roberts, D.D.S.
Adrian Pierce Rogers, Th.M.
Tony Wauterlek
—————————————–

GIL MOEGERLE AND CAROLYN ALEXANDER’S RESIGNATION LETTER
TO FOCUS ON THE FAMILY (submitted by Gil Moegerle and Carolyn
Alexander to Focus on the Family on April 27, 1987; the following is a
copy of the text)

Gil Moegerle
Carolyn Alexander
April 27, 1987

Dr. James Dobson
FOCUS ON THE FAMILY

Dear Jim,

This letter will serve as our written notice of resignation from the
staff of
Focus on the Family.

We do so in light of recent events:

On April 13th, when we informed Shirley and you that we had become
involved in a very meaningful relationship and planned to marry, we
appreciated your response of excitement regarding what we have found
in each other, as well as the normalcy in family life Malisa, Lanise and
Todd will now experience.

But you also expressed concern that the marriage might be the object of
rumors and gossip, coming so quickly after the divorce. We deeply
appreciated your support of the fact that there is absolutely no
connection between the divorce and the new relationship.

We were surprised to hear that this experience, which we believe is
providential, may signal the possibility of great risk to Focus on the
Family. But we respect your judgement and have grown to understand
your perspective.

Because of the atmosphere created by the Jim Bakker scandal, you
indicated that the situation should be reviewed by the cabinet and the
Board of Directors.

On April 17th, the Board took the position that a serious possibility of
misunderstanding existed within the evangelical community as a result of
our marriage plans and asked if we would leave our very visible roles in
this ministry to protect against that possibility.

This letter is a formal acknowledgement that we are willing to do so, and
understand the situation. We hereby resign effective immediately, with
great appreciation for the privilege of serving the Lord at Focus on the
Family.

Gil Moegerle
Carolyn Alexander

P.S. We desire to attend all three film premier staff chapels in order
to
share first hand the response of our friends and colleagues as they
view the finished products of our months of work.
—————————————-

LETTER TO FOCUS ON THE FAMILY FROM MR. PAUL D. NELSON,
PRESIDENT OF THE EVANGELICAL COUNCIL FOR FINANCIAL
ACCOUNTABILITY (sent to Focus on the Family on March 12, 1997; the
following is a copy of the text)

Evangelical Council For Financial Accountability
March 12, 1997

Mr. Paul Hetrick
Focus on the Family
8605 Explorer Drive
Colorado Springs, CO 80920

Dear Paul,

I have just completed reading a copy of Gil-Alexander-Moegerle’s book
_James Dobson’s War on America_. Needless to say, I am appalled at
what Gil has written. I believe his book is proof-positive that
rationalization has no upper limits, especially when it has ten years to
fester.

I find it curious that as one who worked nearly as long as Gil did with
James Dobson and Focus on the Family (and in fact served for two
years as Gil’s administrative supervisor) many of the stories in the book
that are recognizable to me appear only as grotesque caricatures of
what I recall. For example, I found it interesting to learn that Gil was
a
co-founder of Focus on the Family.

Gil has tried airing his grievance against James Dobson and Focus on the
Family in many venues. He routinely used a methodology that attempted
to gain support for his position until it became clear that the one being
solicited did not accept his position. At that point, the individual or
organization became his enemy and the target of criticism. I watched
this at close range over a period of years as Gil waged a ferocious, but
ineffective, public relations campaign against the ministry.

Gil took his case to civil court and lost and then blamed the system. He
wrote letters to the media all around the country to no avail. He tried
publishers but no one would accept his material as rational. He took his
case to James Dobson’s peers in ministry but none of them could
understand his reasoning. He filed complaints with members of
Congress, with the internal Revenue Service, with numerous watchdog
agencies, demanding that they all conduct an investigation. None of them
took him seriously. He attempted to coerce employees and former
employees of Focus, seeking out many whom he thought would be
enemies of the ministry. But none of them would join him. This book
reveals that he has taken a final step by turning his guns on his own
faith and heritage, apparently concluding that everyone in “Christiandom”
is either controlled by or fearful of James Dobson. What an absurdity!

In his desperation to find someone who would take his case, Gil
apparently has found a sympathetic ear from age-old adversaries of the
evangelical community. They have used him as a classic betrayer to
attack someone whose values they despise. It’s as though Gil has sold
out everything for revenge.

In my opinion, the book promises much in the way of “expose” but does
not deliver. Repeated buildups toward anticipated punch lines dissipate
in 10 to 15 year-old stories. I found myself asking over and over, “Who
cares?” Gil is a highly talented dreamer and actor who remains bitter
that failures in his personal life and relationships prevented him from
rising in prominence with his former colleague. I am very sorry for him
and saddened by his book. From one who was close to both him and
James Dobson, I can say with certainty that this man has taken far more
from Focus on the Family than he ever gave to it.

Sincerely,

Paul D. Nelson
President

——— End forwarded message ———-

— End —

Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 01:36:26 -0700
From: ohbrudder
To: CAC
Subject: CAC_Mail: more 10 cent worth

I’m sort of an old and opinionated ABC. I thought I’d add another 10
cent worth . . . I’m up to 20 cents now.

WOMEN IN MINISTRY. My daughter loves the Lord and wants to serve Him
thru her career. Minored in youth ministry at Azusa Pacific. She taught
at a Christian school. She worked at Door of Hope, a ministry to help
homeless families get back on their feet. But she quit all those jobs
and became unemployed for over 6 months and sought the Lord for guidance
and help; her own decision. Then Rock the Nations, a youth crusade
ministry, hired her a couple of months ago to be on staff, discipling
youth among other ministries. She is loving it! An ABC among whites, so
she sort of sticks out. But she is confident she is where God wants her
and where He puts her is for her highest good and His glory. What more
can any believer want, man or woman?

MARLENE. Could this be an encouragement to you and your girls? Thru the
years from high school thru college, she always found some way to serve
in the church. Played drums or guitar in worship and led worship
sometimes. Taught classes. Discipling many girls, one on one. Crisscross
the country with various music ministries and youth ministries,
including tours to Belize, Central America. Her reputation preceded her
and someone at RTN knew her and had worked with her in the past and
recommended her. I’m proud of her. . . her faith and faithfulness led
her.

Bill Leong

— End —

From: gdot@juno.com
To: cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: more 10 cent worth
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 10:44:48 EDT

Bill, thx. A poem about ‘Him’ for the ladies. G

==============

A Pregnant Truth

Job 38:29: “From whose womb comes the ice?”

Steadily, a glacier forming,
tiny toes of salty sea
fingerlets of frozen crystals
winter in the womb of He

farther North than solar weather,
dwelling place of stellar air,
founder of the word forever,
power of the polar bear,

silent as the sound of silence
calling from the icy tomb,
solid men in cold defiance
melt down at the Arctic womb

c.1996 go

On Mon, 06 Oct 1997 01:36:26 -0700 ohbrudder
writes:
>I’m sort of an old and opinionated ABC. I thought I’d add another 10
>cent worth . . . I’m up to 20 cents now.
>
>WOMEN IN MINISTRY. My daughter loves the Lord and wants to serve Him
>…
>MARLENE. Could this be an encouragement to you and your girls?

— End —

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:41:38 -0400 (EDT)
To: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: Fwd: A/PI Catholics?

CACers:

Anyone on this list can help Rachel? Thanks. – Tim
———————
Forwarded message:
From: rab60@columbia.edu (Rachel A. R. Bundan)
To: aaasposts@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU, AARCSPOSTS@socrates.berkeley.edu
Date: 97-10-06 01:45:17 EDT

(with apologies for multiple postings)

I’m a Catholic Fil-Am doctoral student in Ethics at Union Theological
Seminary in NYC.

I ran across an account of the births of both the Black Catholic
Theological Symposium (BCTS) and the Academy of Catholic Hispanic
Theologians in the U.S. (ACHTUS). This led me to wonder whether there are
any other Asian/Pacific American Catholics out there anywhere in the realm
of theological education or (more broadly) religious studies who would be
interested in being partners in dialogue, especially re: how you engage
both questions of race/ethnicity/culture AND of Catholicism in your
academic and/or ministerial work, if at all. I don’t suppose there are a
huge # of folks out there who fit the description, so it might not be
practical to organize as a group at present– although it would be a
pleasant surprise to be proven wrong on this count! I just thought this
might be a worthwhile connection to make. Whatever energy + insight any of
you can provide would be deeply appreciated.

ANOTHER REQUEST ALTOGETHER: I’m working on a project re: Filipino Catholic
immigration to the U.S. Literature specifically on this is limited at
best, so I am looking for library/archival resources, subjects (especially
post-1965 wave, 1st-generation) to interview for oral histories,
communities/parishes to check out, + other relevant contacts. East Coast
leads or suggestions (whether north or south) would obviously be easier for
me to pursue immediately, but I suspect the “better” (+ more plentiful)
stuff is out west, so I will gladly consider anyone + anything anywhere.
Again, whatever you can offer would be welcome.

Please reply to me directly rather than through the list. [To message
recipients who are neither A/PI nor Catholic OR who have access to other
lists: feel free to circulate this note to anyone whom you think might be
interested or suitable.] Thanks.

……………………………………
Rachel A. R. Bundang
Constructive Theologies, Praxis, & Ethics
Union Theological Seminary
rbundang@alumni.princeton.edu
……………………………………

— End —

From: SKYLeung@aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 23:53:23 -0400 (EDT)
To: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: Forgiveness and Reconciliation

[What would you have said?]

Dear CACers,

Yep, I was there… I was one of those poor lemmings drawn into the mass
hysteria and religious mob experience. Ever smelled skepticism? Sensed it
all day today. But, I shared all day and I’m here to say (for the record) I
was enthralled with what God did on the Mall! Yep, I was there at The
Assembly!

I could go on at length about the impact and the strength… but, I suppose
there are those that would grow weary. So, I’ll limit the ‘trons and not
banter on about what made me the most teary…

Ah, in what might fellow CACers be interested?

Well, there was “wreckonciliation!”

Jack Hayford, as he introduced the segment, in front of the masses confessed
to his previous, subconscious, desire to wash his hands after shaking the
hands of blacks. Then there were the whites being led into confession of
their prejudice, arrogance, and injustices. There were all the other major
ethnic groups led in their confessions of bitterness, resentment, and
reciprocating prejudice. Dr. Bruce Fong led the short prayer for Asians,
confessing to pride in culture and aloofness from the problems of race. It
wasn’t long and comprehensive. But like the others, it was offered in a very
appropriate and contrite spirit. I believe the most heartfelt and emotive
prayers were those of the American Indian pastor and the Messianic Jewish
pastor – expressing the pain of their peoples; yet without a vindicative or
accusatory attitude. I was glad God has raised leaders like these; I knew
deep down we were moving beyond “pep rally” or even another outdoor worship
service.

What would you have said if you were in Bruce Fong’s position? Notice, he
omitted any mention of exploitation, cheap labor, internment camps,
exclusionary laws, or the animosity that other minorities have displayed
towards Asians. Other speakers, such as Dr. Raleigh Washington, have brought
it up on other occassions. Dr. Fong is a thinker, so I don’t think it was a
matter of oversight on his part? How would you have led the prayer? What
would you have communicated?

I missed some of the final rhetoric. There were several distractions. One
was Carlos Dominguez. He hailed from Salem, OR. He obviously sought me out
because I was Asian. He asked me my nationality, and I told him I was
Chinese. That didn’t phase him too much – he still wanted to ask me for
forgiveness!

His story (which he managed to get out after a bit of uncontrolled sobbing):
his mother was placed in a concentration camp by the Japenese during WWII.
She is still very bitter towards Japanese. He grew up thinking it was her
problem; not his. But, he acknowledged to me that he’s come to realize some
of the resentment has rubbed off and he does have hard feelings against
Asians from time to time. Because of this he was seeking forgiveness from me
( a complete stranger).

My mind raced. I didn’t know what would be the appropriate thing to say as
he was sharing. “Hey, I’m not Japanese!” “You’ve never seen me before – so
you couldn’t have borne me ill will in the past…” “Can a representative
really ask for or grant forgiveness on behalf of an entire people group?”
“I’m no priest!” “Well, he’s a Christian and… God’s already forgiven
him.” “1 John 1:9 – it’s taken care of, right!?” “Wait, John 20:23 & Matt.
18:18; do I have an responsibility to loose and forgive?” All these thoughts
raced through my mind. He searched my face for a sign of forgiveness. “God
forgives you, ” I managed. I knew that to be true. But I knew it wasn’t
exactly what he had hoped to hear me say. Still I didn’t know if it was my
place to say. But, then, all of a sudden, it didn’t matter. God showed me I
had to confess to this brother. So I shared about how I had from time to
time harbored a condescending attitude towards Latinos. I related how, in
particular, I ocassionally thought of my brother’s Hispanic girlfriend as
somehow “beneath” him. Wow! Where did that come from? Yet it was quite
liberating and I really sensed I had said enough to Carlos. This wasn’t just
praying with a brother of another color! This was breaking down walls – my
own; not just someone else’s! I have to admit, I didn’t expect this kind of
thing to happen going into The Assembly – I was suprised by repentance…
What would you have said? Would you have forgiven on behalf of all Asians?
On behalf of the Japanese?

The Metro ride out of DC took 45 minutes – standing room only. But, it went
quickly. We met many more men from around the country. Asked how we’d stay
fired up and execute the action points, we gave stock answers at first – mens
groups, service at the shelters, etc. But, then we had to come forth and
admit little hope on our part for successfully encouraging our 1st Gen.
pastors to meet with other pastors throughout the city on a regular basis to
pray, plan and strategize over what could be done for our city. (Hey, didn’t
Brother Ken just say something along these lines?) We also expressed little
hope that our church would break out of our “denominational”/ “evangelical”
arrogance and embrace any of the “unity with diversity,” bridging of
sectarianism, ideas espoused at The Assembly. Our brothers from SC parted
ways with us promising to pray for us, e-mail us, and understanding a little
bit more about the predicament we second generation types face. We were
thankful for the chance to chat on the trip back. But, we didn’t know if we
had said enough, too much, or too little? What would you have said?

Enough for now! With those who write and express interest, I’ll share about
the charred Bible found at the site of the one reported accident involving
folks headed down for The Assembly. Believe me, you won’t read about it in
the Washington Post.

Laus Deo,
Stephen Leung
Alexandria, VA
CCCVA – Falls Church

— End —

From: SKYLeung@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:02:26 -0400 (EDT)
To: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: Correction

Oops, my mistake. I see that it’s Brother Arthur and not Brother Ken that
should be attributed with the recent remarks about few Asians appearing at
city-wide pastoral meetings. My apologies for the switch-up.

BTW, I hope those of you who are pastors aren’t offended by my use of the
title “Brother” for everyone. Around the Southern Baptist circles in which I
grew up, the term is actually an esteemed title given to the Pastor as well.

In the Redeemer,
Stephen Leung

— End —

From: Rlfong@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 02:50:27 -0400 (EDT)
To: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: Humor

way too serious lately. here’s a joke or two.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Grandpa and granddaugher were sitting talking when she
asked, “Did God make you, Grandpa?”

“Yes, God made me,” the grandfather answered.

A few minutes later, the little girl asked him, “Did God make
me too?”

“Yes, He did,” the older man answered.

For a few minutes, the little girl seemed to be studying her
grandpa, as well as her own reflection in the mirror, while her
grandfather wondered what was running through her mind.

At last she spoke up. “You know, Grandpa,” she said, “God’s
doing a lot better job lately.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~
Every year, just before Easter, the Chief Rabbi in Rome goes
to the Vatican and presents an ancient, and by now quite
tattered envelope to the Pope.

The Pope inspects the envelope, shakes his head, and hands
it back to the Chief Rabbi, who then departs. This has been
going on for nearly two thousand years.

One year recently, it happened that there was a new Pope
and a new Chief Rabbi. When the Chief Rabbi presented the
ancient envelope to the Pope, as he had been instructed to do
by his predecessor, the Pope looked it over and handed it
back as he had been told to, in turn, by his predecessor…but
then the Pope said, “This is an unusual ritual. I don’t
understand it. What is in this envelope?”

“Damned if I know,” answered the Chief Rabbi. “I’m new here
myself. But, hey, let’s open it and find out.”

“Good idea,” said the Pope.

So together, they slowly and carefully opened the envelope.
And do you know what they found?

The caterer’s bill for the Last Supper!
~~~~~~~~~

— End —

From: JWongCDI@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:58:44 -0400 (EDT)
To: ohbrudder@prodigy.net
cc: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: up to 20 cents now

Ohbrudder wrote…
“WOMEN IN MINISTRY. My daughter loves the Lord and wants to serve Him thru
her career… But she is confident she is where God wants her and where He
puts her is for her highest good and His glory. What more can any believer
want, man or woman?”

I often wonder when I read or hear this kind of testimony, is it OK? Does
the questions only occur to me?

Is what have been said or written, REAL? Is the description given by those
closest to the experience really real? Of course, who can challenge a
personal testimony? But does the person’s description of their own
experiences automatically accurately real? Or does it matter? As long as
the person is happy with their own description,…

Another thought may be that who can challenge another’s personal walk with
their Lord? or Should it be done?

I wonder whether our commitment to individualism has created a loss of
dependency on a group or expected accountability by a group.

This memo is one of those, “fools rush in where…” I’m not sure I’m ready
for the results from this 10 cents input.

Joe

— End —

From: “DJ Chuang”
To: cac@emwave.net
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:15:28 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: WOMEN & MINISTRY

— forwarded message —

Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 18:34
From: Grace May

Greetings!
I’ve been listening eagerly to the honest and encouraging exchange
we’ve been having as we grapple with Scriptures, an array of complex
social issues and our location in the church and the world as
Asian-Americans. Thx Tim & Sze-kar for paving the way and Marlene and
Bill for spurring me to enter the discussion on Women in Ministry at
this time.

Introduction
My name is Grace May. I am a second-generation Chinese American, who
grew up in New York City. The daughter of a devout Christian mother, I
came to know the Lord at a young age. Praying and reading the
Scriptures were familiar experiences at home as was attending church on
Sundays. In the main, I have participated in three Chinese churches:
The Chinese Gospel Church, the Oversea Chinese Mission and the the
Chinese Bible Church of Greater Boston — the first two churches
situated in the heart of Chinatown and the the third in suburbia.
During my college years I attended a predominantly white church, the
Evangelical Free Church of West Haven.
It was in my Junior year at college that I began wrestling with the
issue of women’s leadership in the church. Sensing a call in my life,
I attended Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary where I continued to
study “the woman’s issue,” researching and exegeting the difficult
issues surrounding the topic while enjoying the support of mentors and
peers. I graduated with an M.Div, did some parachurch work and am now
serving at the Roxbury Presbyterian Church, a predominantly black church
in Boston, while trying to write my dissertation on Watchman Nee and the
breaking of bread. I occasionally also give talks on Women and the
Bible for InterVarsity and at Chinese church conferences.

Women & Men in Ministry
I cannot encourage sisters and brothers more to exercise their gifts
in God’s service. In the Garden, God created us each in the divine
image and commanded us both to serve as stewards of creation (Gen.
1:27,28). Prejudice, abuse and inequality are not by God’s design but
a direct result of the fall. Christ, however, came to set us free from
the curse and its dread consequences. Thus, as members of the Body of
Christ, we can take the lead in mutual respect and mutual submission.
We can create new models of relating to one another in the family, in
the church and in society.
Brothers, we need you to take more risks to open up the places of
privilege and power in the church and in other venues that have
traditionally been reserved for men. (I feel blessed to know brothers
in CAC who publically voice their support of their sisters.)
Sisters, we need you to fulfill the calling that God has given you and
to use your God-given gifts. (None of the gift lists in Scripture are
gender-specific, see Rom. 12:6-8, I Cor. 12:7-11, Eph 4:11-12). You
have inherited the legacy of a great host of witnesses: Women who
discipled you and influenced your growth as a Christian; Bible women,
evangelists and pastors in Chinese (as well as American) church history
who have dared to go against the cultural grain to obey God.; and of
course, the great women of faith recorded in Scripture: Miriam, Rahab,
Ruth, Deborah, Hannah, Esther, Huldah, Anna, Elizabeth, Mary, Phillip’s
four daughters, Priscilla, Phoebe.

Still Interested?
If you’re interested in hearing more about how I see Scriptures
supporting women in leadership, please read an article I co-authored
with Hyunhye Joe “Setting the Record Straight: a Response to J.I.
Packer’s Position on Women’s Ordination” (Spring 1997) or “Who’s Who?
Biblical Modles of Women in Leadership, Pt. 1 & 2” (Spring & Summer,
1993) in Priscilla Papers, a journal of Christians for Biblical
Equality.
(Ask for a copy via http://www.goldengate.net/mall/cbe/may.htm or
cbe@minn.net)


*

— End —

From: ArtZech46@aol.com
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:11:10 -0400 (EDT)
To: SKYLeung@aol.com
cc: ArtZech46@aol.com, cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Forgiveness and Reconciliation

Dear Stephen,
Thanks for your personal report on the Promise Keepers. I believe that God
had a plan in having that Hispanic brother seek you out. I think the
difficult thing for us Asians to admit, (including myself) are the
predjudices we have held ourselves.

For myself, growing up in an all white neighborhood as one of the only Asians
I felt I was the minority and the one being discriminated against. I was
even picked on for being Chinese.

I think the trap we fall into is that we see ourselves as the victims. We
feel that others have treated us Chinese/Asians unfairly in America. Sure,
we could have a laundry list of wrongs. The Exclusion Acts, slave labor
treatment in building the transamerica railroad, internment camps, etc. The
list is never ending.

But I feel that we need to deal with the sin in our own hearts. I feel one
the the sins we Chinese have is that of pride and self sufficiency. For
myself I admit that Chinese often look down at other minorities. After all
the media calls us the “model minority.” This in my humble opinion is a
distorted image we have bought into.

I think too often we look at the speck in other’s eyes without examining our
own logs. Just for my own exercise let me list what I feel are some of the
things we need to examine. I wish I had heard what Bruce Fong had said.
(Maybe someone could send us the words of his prayer.)

1) Pride: Thinking that we are better and smarter than others. (I once
heard a Chinese pastor say in a sermon that genetically Chinese were smarter
than other people)
2) Materialism: Pursuing money as a God.
3) Passivisim: Non involvement in issues that concern the community. Not
taking the responsibility to vote or register. (An obligation in my book for
any Christian citizen)
4) Failure to Pray for America. Chinese come to reap material benefits from
America but don’t pray for the welfare of the nation. They don’t see the
problems in the society as their responsibility.
5) Poor testimony for Christ. Chinese churches causing division by
splitting the body of Christ.
6) Idolatry. Chinese bring idols & their gods into this country. Even
build temples. (This is not against religious freedom but we need to
recognize the spiritual warfare that occurs with worshipping other gods,
etc.)

Why do I mention these as a 3rd generation ABC? Hey, didn’t Nehemiah ask for
forgiveness for his own people’s sins although he was in Babylon? I think
it’s called identificational repentance. If we are part of the immigrant
church, which I am by calling, I must take some responsibility for my
brothers and sisters in Christ in the church. I cannot say that this is the
problem of the OBC only. I am part of an OBC church. It is my/our problem.

I do not think we can honor God by continually pointing fingers at a group of
people and say “You are the reason the church is experiencing problems, Fix
it.” Doesn’t Christian love and commitment compel me to be part of the
solution. Some may say that trying to help the Chinese church in North
America is an uphill struggle. To me the motivation must be love. I love
the Chinese church enough to be a part of making it whole. I know I can’t do
it on my own. Some may call it impossible. But I call it the ministry of
reconcilliation.

Your comments or contrary opinions are welcomed.

For the Kingdom,
Rev. Arthur Lum
Chinese Church in Christ
San Jose, CA (Silicon Valley)

P.S. Stephen, please send me the story about the burnt Bible

— End —

Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 00:40:12 -0700
From: ohbrudder
To: JWongCDI@aol.com
CC: CAC
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: up to 20 cents now

JWongCDI@aol.com wrote:
>
> I often wonder when I read or hear this kind of testimony, is it OK?
>
> Is what have been said or written, REAL? Is the description given by those closest to the experience really real?
>
> I wonder whether our commitment to individualism has created a loss of
> dependency on a group or expected accountability by a group.
>
> This memo is one of those, “fools rush in where…” I’m not sure I’m ready for the results from this 10 cents input.

What a cynical response to my daughter’s testimony!
And Joe called her a “fool” to boot! As a father, I am
stepping forward to defend my daughter’s honor. If
it was me who was insulted, I might have just
considered the source and let it pass.

The Lord would have me defend my daughter like
this: “Father, forgive him for he knew not what
he did.” Michelle would “Amen” that. Besides,
if I was Joe, I would consider what Jesus said
about someone who called someone a “fool.” Mt.5.22.

I happen to know that Michelle did not rush into
anything and she was far from being individualistic
in her search for God’s will.. For the sake of brevity,
in my previous 10 cent contribution,
I did not detail everything she did nor her rationale
in the final decision she finally made. She “tested
the spirit” of what she received from the Lord.
She waited upon God in prayer and fasting, sought
the council of her discipler, ministers, Christian
friends for both direction and confirmation of the
job she finally took at Rock the Nations.

I’m very proud of Michelle! All she did was take
Jesus at His word, “Ask and it shall be given to you;
seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be
opened to you.” If she is a fool for trusting the word
of Christ, then she is, and please count me a fool also.

And may I add the Lord use foolishness to confound
the wise; its His modus operandi.

I’ll address the cynical part in another posting.

bill leong

— End —

Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 17:53:47 -0400
From: Sze-kar Wan
To: CAC
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: WOMEN & MINISTRY

Dear Grace:

Welcome! I was wondering when you would surface:-) I hope your
participation would encourage other sisters to take a more active part
in this forum which unfortunately has been dominated by vociferous males
like me.

Thanks for your words and your article. The latter I downloaded last
night and had a quick glance of. Will respond to it when I can read it
mroe carefully. It looks sophisticated and involved, and I would urge
everyone to take seriously the issues raised there. It’s tough to be an
Evangelical feminist these days, for you seem to be fighting battles on
all fronts.

Peace and grace,
Sze-kar

PS: No pun intended; I’m just a diehard Paulinist.

— End —

Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 19:50:15 -0700
To: cac@emwave.net
From: Tom Steers
Sender: owner-cac@emwave.net

To Art Lum re:

“Maybe you will develop something out of your So. Cal Asian
American PK conference? ”

Art, F.Y.I., the SoCal Asian American men’s conference that is starting to
be planned for next year is not going to be a PK event. It will be
sponsored by churches and parachurch organizations, of which one may be the
PKs. We are choosing to operate independently from PK because the Lord
might lead us to also do a woman’s conference at a later date, or a
conference for pastors.

Also, regarding your comments about mentoring via Evergreen and ” but
what about the other 95% of Asian Am leaders?” You will be encouraged to
know that last March 25th, 70 SoCal Asian American Pastors and Parachurch
leaders got together for 4 hours at the San Gabriel Presbyterian Church for
sharing what God was doing in their ministry, for prayer, and for hearing
an excellent message from Pastor Dr. Ken Fong. He gave his
“bass-salmon-cod” message that he mentioned on the CAC network on 2/7/97.
This type of mentoring was dynamite because the leaders were not only
descendents from the older Chinese and Japanese immigrant groups, but there
were Filipinos, Koreans, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indian, Laotian, + Thai.
All of these leaders were ministering in English, not the language of their
origin. They all needed to hear from the experience of Evergreen…and
thanks to Ken for making himself available to share it in a helpful way.
There was much interest in having another meeting like this so we’ll put
one together for next March….there is a hunger down here to relate and
get input. Maybe you could come down for the day and join us? You were
candid in sharing about leadership development in an OBC church setting.
Thanks for the transperancy. He gives grace to the humble. And, I pray
the Lord will develop your leadership in a wonderful and powerful way, even
though the environment is not autonomous.

Tom Steers
L.A.

— End —

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:48:59 -0400 (EDT)
To: Clarence.Cheuk@wheaton.edu
cc: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: Resources for Asian American materials

Clarence:

Please forgive me for forgetting to send you the address where you can order
or rent Asian American film or videos two or three weeks ago. I’ve also
added the addresses of some book stores that specialize in Asian American
materials and posted it on the CAC list for our subscribers’ information.
Also, for a more thorough list of Asian American Christian resources, you
may want to check with PAACCE (Pacific Asian American and Canadian Christian
Education project). Let me know and I’ll see if I can connect you with
PAACCE. Next week, I’ll have a bibliography of published works on Asian
American studies available, so if anyone would like to see it, please e-mail
me privately. Thanks. – Tim

NAATA CrossCurrent Media
(Asian Pacific American Film, Video and Audio Collection)
346 Ninth Street, 2d/floor
San Francisco, CA 94103
(415) 552-9550
FAX (415) 863-7428

Books, etc.:

Eastwind Books & Arts, Inc.
633 Vallejo Street
San Francisco, CA 94133
(415) 772-5899
FAX (415) 772-5885

AACP, Inc.
234 Main Street
P.O. Box 1587
San Mateo, CA 94401
(800) 874-2242
(415) 343-9408
FAX (415) 343-5711

Shen’s Books and Supplies
821 South First Ave.
Arcadia, CA 91006
(800) 456-6660
(818) 445-6940

Some of this information may be dated, so if anyone has up-to-date info (or
additional resources), please post on the CAC list. Thanks.

————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com
————————————————————

— End —

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:42:03 -0400 (EDT)
To: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: NY Times article on Affirm. Action

CACers:

There was a NY Times article today (Oct 8) which reported on a study which
showed that beneficiaries of affirmative action in college or grad. school
did just as well as those who entered on basis of “merit” alone afterwards.
If you’d like a copy (and cannot access the NY Times), let me know and I’ll
send it to you. – Tim
————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com
————————————————————

— End —

Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 08:36:04 +0000
From: Grace May
To: wans@monet.bc.edu
CC: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: CAC: Women & Men

Dear Sze-kar,
Thx for the encouragement. I hardly find you vociferous. On the
contrary, I have enjoyed your support immensely and esp. found your
piece on Gal. 3:28 helpful. Paul’s plea for inclusivity, I believe,
gets at the heart of the gospel. I look forward to your comments,
understandably from a Pauline perspective.
Blessings,
Grace
— End —

From: gdot@juno.com
To: cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: CAC: Women & Men
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 12:51:34 EDT

Grace:

Here’s a vociferous question for you: who is Pauline?

🙂

Bro. G

On Thu, 09 Oct 1997 08:36:04 +0000 Grace May writes:
>Dear Sze-kar,
>…I look forward to your comments, understandably from a Pauline
perspective.

— End —

From: ArtZech46@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:41:11 -0400 (EDT)
To: destiny@hooked.net
cc: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: Leadership

Dear Tom,
Thanks for the information. Like I said, I’m probably out of the loop. I
was ministering in So. Cal until January of 1996. Looks like I moved just
as things began to pick up.

Things are less developed here in No. Cal. We have a handful of Asian Am
churches in the Bay area. Maybe not more than about 12? (Purely English
speaking Asian churches with no other language group.) We did have an Asian
Summit back in March with Louis Lee helping to coordinate that. But I think
our development is about 10 years behind that in So. Cal.

Any suggestions on what we could do up here? Please let me know when you
will be meeting in March. Maybe we can send a No. Cal delegation or
something. Maybe Ken can offer some suggestions. Our resources and energy
are less developed here.

For the Kingdom,
Arthur Lum

— End —

To: Cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: God raising women to bring in the harvest
From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 17:03:24 EDT

In regard to Ken Fong’s reasoning about God raising women to bring in the
harvest.: 10/3/97

The point I seem to understand is that God must be raising women for
leadership in the ministry since it is very practical and wise and
BECAUSE these women are very qualified and often more qualified than men
to carry out the ministry. Would it be just as true that God must be
raising women to become head of their marriages because they are well
motivated and qualified to become the head, and many are becoming better
heads than man? Should the husband then, who is much less capable,
submit to his wife?

I believe that the expediency of the situation, which often is very
emotionally charged, does not become the determinator that this must be
God’s desire or that it is the principle to work by.. Rather we should
remain within the boundaries of the principle to find the solution.

Just a thot in response to Tim’s letter to Ken on 10/1 about leadership.
Perhaps the problem is much greater than the lack of good and godly
leadership for the Asian-Amer. churches. Greater in this sense. What
if the few good and godly leadership we are training and mentoring are
not being trained to meet and therefore does not meet the standards of I
Tim. 3? And also, what if many of those we view as good and godly
leaders does not meet the standards of I Tim. 3? Then the problem is
lacking good and godly leaders according to I Tim. 3 in the Asian-Amer.
churches..
The need would be the goal of leadership training (not just scholarship)
as well as the need for training.

Ben Wong

— End —

From: HarryWLew@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:40:34 -0400 (EDT)
To: cac@bccn.org
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NY Times article on Affirm. Action

Dear CACers,

This in response to yet another of Tim’s pro-affirmative action posts:

You should know that the woman who did the so-called study is not without her
critics. The story first appeared a month or so ago, and since then there
have been several articles that criticized the study for bias (finding what
she set out to look for, ignoring relevant data that would contradict her
conclusion, etc.) and the smallness of her sampling. I’m not surprised that
the liberal New York Times would rehash the story in a favorable light.

A more significant story, largely ignored by the media is the fact that
Asian-Americans (not whites) have been the big winners in the elimination of
affirmative action through Proposition 209.

Talk to Chinese-American students from schools like the University of
Michigan, Oberlin College, and Northwestern University as I have, and you
will find very few who do not know of an African-American or Hispanic high
school classmate with lower G.P.A. and S.A.T. test scores who was able to get
into Stanford or an Ivy League school such as Harvard or Yale.

That’s why the large majority of Chinese-Americans are against affirmative
action. It is not fair nor is it in our best interest.

Yours in Christ,
Harry Lew

P.S. Sensible African-Americans like Shelby Steele have eloquently argued
that affirmation action does not in the long run benefit African-Americans
either. By focusing on the elimination of affirmative action, the proponents
of quotas ignore the deeper issue of why African-Americans cannot adequately
compete with whites and Asian-Americans to get into college and grad school
in the first place.

— End —

Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 19:30:19 -0700
From: ohbrudder
To: CAC
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: up to 20 cents now

ohbrudder wrote:
>
> JWongCDI@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > Is what have been said or written, REAL? Is the description given by those
> > closest to the experience really real? Of course, who can challenge a
> > personal testimony? But does the person’s description of their own
> > experiences automatically accurately real? Or does it matter? As long as
> > the person is happy with their own description,…
> >
>
JOE’S CYNICISM. When a young Christian gives a
testimony of how he got saved, is he to be believed?
Shall we ask him, is it real? Shall we question his
experience? Tell him it was just emotions and his
imagination. Make him doubt his salvation? Make
him stumble? Better get that millstone ready!
It is a good thing we are saved through our own
faith and not others.

My personal greatest satifaction and “paycheck”
in my ministry have been the countless testimonies,
cards and letters thanking me for introducing
them to Christ. And Christ not only as savior but
friend. They enter a live relationship of faith
and love with one who is “real”, and God does “real”
things for them and answers their prayers with
“real” answers.

MICHELLE’S EXPERIENCE and testimony is merely
an extension of her salvation experience and testimony.
It was through her faith she received Christ and
it was through her faith she received her job/ministry.
Both by God’s grace as well and Michelle is a
witness of His grace. And we are to be witnesses of
God’s grace in us, are we not? Are we all not to
be witnesses of the Christ story in all of us?

One more response to the cynics, skeptics, doubters.
Like the blind guy Jesus healed said,”I don’t know
about your theological mumble-jumble. I was blind
but now I see.” BLV (Bill Leong Version)

I have another take on Joe’s cynicism which I’ll
post in the future.

— End —

From: HarryWLew@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:48:05 -0400 (EDT)
To: cac@bccn.org
Subject: CAC_Mail: Why Chinese American students hate affirmative action

Dear CACers,

The short article below is another example of why Chinese American college
students by and large are against affirmative action. It’s from the September
29, 1997 issue of THE NEW REPUBLIC, page 8.

Yours in Christ,
Harry Lew

“FIRST IN THEIR CLASS: We thought affirmative action had long since reached
its reductio ad absurdum. Apparently not. The University of Illinois at
Chicago, it turns out, has given minority students preferences not only in
the admissions process, but in course selection as well. Nearly 4,000
minority students last spring were allowed to enroll early, effectively
taking seats from other classmates.

“The policy was crafted two decades ago to help disabled students and
athletes with scheduling conflicts, but it gradually devolved into a
boondoggle. According to THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE, anywhere from 70 to 93 percent
of minority students (African Americans, Native Americans and Hispanics
[[note–NOT Asian Americans because they don’t constitute an
“underrepresented minority” in the academy–HL]]) once qualified for the
preference.

“Now, facing both a federal class-action lawsuit and negative press,
Chancellor David Broski says the policy will return to its original mission
of helping disabled students and overburdened athletes. Yet university
students seeking preferences may not have much to worry about. The guidelines
still include a category for those “differentially qualified” students who
were admitted under less stringent standards. Any takers?”

— End —

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:00:55 -0400 (EDT)
To: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: JAPANESE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE

CACers:

Anyone interested in presenting a paper at the following event? – Tim

THE JAPANESE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE. Willamette University, Salem, Oregon,
September 17-19, 1998. The program committee for The Japanese American
Experience, an interdisciplinary conference coordinated with the exhibit
“A More Perfect Union: Japanese Americans and the United States
Constitution,” invites proposals for individual papers, poster exhibits,
and full panels on all aspects of the Japanese American experience, the
wartime internment and related legal issues. Faculty, independent
scholars, and students are all encouraged to apply. Special panels for
undergraduate presentations will be organized. Please submit one page
proposal with cv, and a cover letter for proposed panels to Jennifer
Jopp, History Department, Willamette University, 900 State St., Salem,
Oregon 97301, by January 5, 1998.

————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com
————————————————————

— End —

To: Cac@emwave.net
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:45:55 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NY Times article on Affirm. Action
From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)

Dear CAC,

On an absolutely serious note, What is the relationship between higher
education and Christian leadership? Of ‘affirmative action’ Harry Lew
comments, below: ‘It is not fair nor is it in our best interest’. Since
‘affirmative action’ AND its alternative have to do with obtaining
(more, higher) education, not necessarily with developing Christian
leadership, THEY may not be in anybody’s ‘best interest’.

(Note: Ben Wong, 10/9, part 2 relates to this issue.)

G

On Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:40:34 -0400 (EDT) HarryWLew@aol.com writes:
>Dear CACers,
>
>This in response to yet another of Tim’s pro-affirmative action posts…
>
>That’s why the large majority of Chinese-Americans are against
affirmative
> action. It is not fair nor is it in our best interest.

— End —

From: SKYLeung@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:24:53 -0400 (EDT)
To: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: Forgiveness and Reconciliation

[What would you have said?]

Dear CACers,

Yep, I was there… I was one of those poor lemmings drawn into the mass
hysteria and religious mob experience. Ever smelled skepticism? Sensed it
all day today. But, I shared all day and I’m here to say (for the record) I
was enthralled with what God did on the Mall! Yep, I was there at The
Assembly!

I could go on at length about the impact and the strength… but, I suppose
there are those that would grow weary. So, I’ll limit the ‘trons and not
banter on about what made me the most teary…

Ah, in what might fellow CACers be interested?

Well, there was “wreckonciliation!”

Jack Hayford, as he introduced the segment, in front of the masses confessed
to his previous, subconscious, desire to wash his hands after shaking the
hands of blacks. Then there were the whites being led into confession of
their prejudice, arrogance, and injustices. There were all the other major
ethnic groups led in their confessions of bitterness, resentment, and
reciprocating prejudice. Dr. Bruce Fong led the short prayer for Asians,
confessing to pride in culture and aloofness from the problems of race. It
wasn’t long and comprehensive. But like the others, it was offered in a very
appropriate and contrite spirit. I believe the most heartfelt and emotive
prayers were those of the American Indian pastor and the Messianic Jewish
pastor – expressing the pain of their peoples; yet without a vindicative or
accusatory attitude. I was glad God has raised leaders like these; I knew
deep down we were moving beyond “pep rally” or even another outdoor worship
service.

What would you have said if you were in Bruce Fong’s position? Notice, he
omitted any mention of exploitation, cheap labor, internment camps,
exclusionary laws, or the animosity that other minorities have displayed
towards Asians. Other speakers, such as Dr. Raleigh Washington, have brought
it up on other occassions. Dr. Fong is a thinker, so I don’t think it was a
matter of oversight on his part? How would you have led the prayer? What
would you have communicated?

I missed some of the final rhetoric. There were several distractions. One
was Carlos Dominguez. He hailed from Salem, OR. He obviously sought me out
because I was Asian. He asked me my nationality, and I told him I was
Chinese. That didn’t phase him too much – he still wanted to ask me for
forgiveness!

His story (which he managed to get out after a bit of uncontrolled sobbing):
his mother was placed in a concentration camp by the Japenese during WWII.
She is still very bitter towards Japanese. He grew up thinking it was her
problem; not his. But, he acknowledged to me that he’s come to realize some
of the resentment has rubbed off and he does have hard feelings against
Asians from time to time. Because of this he was seeking forgiveness from me
( a complete stranger).

My mind raced. I didn’t know what would be the appropriate thing to say as
he was sharing. “Hey, I’m not Japanese!” “You’ve never seen me before – so
you couldn’t have borne me ill will in the past…” “Can a representative
really ask for or grant forgiveness on behalf of an entire people group?”
“I’m no priest!” “Well, he’s a Christian and… God’s already forgiven
him.” “1 John 1:9 – it’s taken care of, right!?” “Wait, John 20:23 & Matt.
18:18; do I have an responsibility to loose and forgive?” All these thoughts
raced through my mind. He searched my face for a sign of forgiveness. “God
forgives you, ” I managed. I knew that to be true. But I knew it wasn’t
exactly what he had hoped to hear me say. Still I didn’t know if it was my
place to say. But, then, all of a sudden, it didn’t matter. God showed me I
had to confess to this brother. So I shared about how I had from time to
time harbored a condescending attitude towards Latinos. I related how, in
particular, I ocassionally thought of my brother’s Hispanic girlfriend as
somehow “beneath” him. Wow! Where did that come from? Yet it was quite
liberating and I really sensed I had said enough to Carlos. This wasn’t just
praying with a brother of another color! This was breaking down walls – my
own; not just someone else’s! I have to admit, I didn’t expect this kind of
thing to happen going into The Assembly – I was suprised by repentance…
What would you have said? Would you have forgiven on behalf of all Asians?
On behalf of the Japanese?

The Metro ride out of DC took 45 minutes – standing room only. But, it went
quickly. We met many more men from around the country. Asked how we’d stay
fired up and execute the action points, we gave stock answers at first – mens
groups, service at the shelters, etc. But, then we had to come forth and
admit little hope on our part for successfully encouraging our 1st Gen.
pastors to meet with other pastors throughout the city on a regular basis to
pray, plan and strategize over what could be done for our city. (Hey, didn’t
Brother Ken just say something along these lines?) We also expressed little
hope that our church would break out of our “denominational”/ “evangelical”
arrogance and embrace any of the “unity with diversity,” bridging of
sectarianism, ideas espoused at The Assembly. Our brothers from SC parted
ways with us promising to pray for us, e-mail us, and understanding a little
bit more about the predicament we second generation types face. We were
thankful for the chance to chat on the trip back. But, we didn’t know if we
had said enough, too much, or too little? What would you have said?

Enough for now! With those who write and express interest, I’ll share about
the charred Bible found at the site of the one reported accident involving
folks headed down for The Assembly. Believe me, you won’t read about it in
the Washington Post.

Laus Deo,
Stephen Leung
Alexandria, VA
CCCVA – Falls Church

— End —

From: SKYLeung@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:53:52 -0400 (EDT)
To: gdot@juno.com
cc: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: Pauline

Brother G, Pauline is a hurricane presently wrecking havoc in Mexico!=)
[Maybe the smiley is inappropriate…]

Brother Sze-kar, “Grace and peace” is also used by Peter. Does that make it
Petrine too? John uses it in the salutation 2 John. Someone has recently
told me that the expanded greatings of the NT are very significant and that
the order of the graces is also noteworthy: grace/mercy, peace, and love.

Apologies to all, I think I left my last posting in the outgoing box and it
just went out accidentally when I activated another “flash session.” AOLers
know what I’m talking about.

Up too late,
Stephen Leung

— End —

Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 23:06:18 -0700
From: Ken Fong
Organization: Evergreen Baptist Church
To: DJ Chuang
CC: cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: WOMEN & MINISTRY

Hey, Grace, great to hear from you and what you’re doing these days.
I’m back on the board with IV and getting more involved with our local
LA chapters. In fact, with Jonathan Wu on our staff and two of the
worship leaders from Urbana ministering in music with us, our growing
commitment to urban missions, and multi-Asian/multi-ethnicity, AND
visible female spiritual leaders/preachers, we’re gradually becoming a
church that the typical IV alum can commit to!

Appreciated your comments very much on women in ministry. Here’s the
way I see it in a nutshell: Prior the Fall/Curse, there wasn’t any
emphasis on ‘headship’ or ‘ruling over,’ etc. Because of the Cross, we
are given the opportunity to come out from the shadow of the Curse and
experience ‘re-creation’. With so much talk about the effects of the
Curse on the relationship between men and women, I’m more interested in
stressing that we live by the Cross, which ushers us all back into
healthier relationships that don’t have to fall back on things like
hierarchy in order to have order. Living by God’s grace, we can and
must learn to live in peace with each other.

I’ll be in Boston on the weekend of the 17th for the IFES 50th Jubilee.
Gonna be there?

ken fong
sr. pastor
Evergreen Bapt. Church of LA
Rosemead, CA

— End —

From: “Ray Downen”
Organization: Mission Outreach (Joplin)
To: cac@emwave.net
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:00:06 +0000
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: WOMEN & MINISTRY

Ken Fong, and other interested Christians —
Do your comments below imply that the apostle Paul was
living in the past when he exhorted Christians to recognize a
distinction between women and men, with the men to be leaders
and the women NOT leaders? Is it an unhealthy “hierarchy” for
church leaders to be men who are “husbands of one wife, etc.”?
In recent years, we’ve tried out the experiment of putting
our wives and daughters in combat units of the U.S. military. Do
you feel this is a forward step? Is it working pretty well?
Then you’ll no doubt approve of sending women evangelists into
danger areas where murder and rape are common. Some gentlemen think
it wiser to try to “protect” the “weaker” sex. Many women prefer to
pretend that they are men in everything but physical structure. They
are not.

> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 23:06:18 -0700
> From: Ken Fong
> Appreciated your comments very much on women in ministry. Here’s the
> way I see it in a nutshell: Prior the Fall/Curse, there wasn’t any
> emphasis on ‘headship’ or ‘ruling over,’ etc. Because of the Cross, we
> are given the opportunity to come out from the shadow of the Curse and
> experience ‘re-creation’. With so much talk about the effects of the
> Curse on the relationship between men and women, I’m more interested in
> stressing that we live by the Cross, which ushers us all back into
> healthier relationships that don’t have to fall back on things like
> hierarchy in order to have order. Living by God’s grace, we can and
> must learn to live in peace with each other.

from Ray Downen respectfully on this day of the Lord.
417/782-0814 2228 Porter Joplin Mission Outreach.
Mail address is P O Box 1065 Joplin MO 64802-1065.
Internet home page addr = http://www.ipa.net/~outreach

— End —

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:56:00 +0000
From: Grace May
To: gdot@juno.com
CC: cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: CAC: Women & Men

Bro G:
“Pauline” is simply an adjectival form of Paul often used to refer to
the epistles penned by the apostle.
GYM
— End —

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:28:14 -0400 (EDT)
To: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: Fwd: AAASCommunity: AAASPosts: Address of conference

Dear CACers:

Those of you in the Boston area might find this conference interesting! –
Tim

————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com
————————————————————
Forwarded message:
From: iiu@iname.com
Sender: owner-aaascommunity@uclink4.berkeley.edu
To: aaasposts@uclink4.berkeley.edu
Date: 97-10-10 12:17:43 EDT

==================================================================
* This is email from the News & Announcements list (AAASPosts) of
* the Email Network of the Association for Asian American Studies.
—————————————————————–
* For more information about the list and the AAAS Email Network,
* email a request to .
—————————————————————–
* For information about AAAS membership, email a request to
* our national office at .
==================================================================
Note: Held at Harvard University, Cambridge

The Committee on Ethnic Studies presents:

A Public Symposium

The Future of Ethnic Studies: New Directions in Curriculum, Research,
and Theory

October 24 (Friday), 3:30-6 P.M., Boylston Hall Auditorium, Harvard
Yard, Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts.
Open to the Public, All Welcome

Guest Speakers:

Jack Tschen, Director, Asian-American Studies, NYU
Mantia Diawawa, Chair, Africana Studies, NYU
Juan Flores, Director, Center for Puerto Rican Studies, Hunter College
Dilip Gaonkar, Co-Director, Afro-American Studies, Northwestern
University
Benjamin Lee, Co-Director, Center for Transcultural Studies, Chicago

Respondents from Harvard faculty:

Anthony Appiah, Professor, Afro-American Studies and Philosophy
Leo Ou-fan Lee, Chair, Committee on Ethnic Studies
J. Lorand Matory, Assistant Professor, Anthropology
Werner Sollors, Professor, Afro-American Studies and English;
Co-Director, Longfellow Institute
Doris Sommers, Professor, Romance Languages
Xiao-huang Yin, Visiting Associate Professor, History
================================================================
* AAASCommunity, the Discussion & News list of the
* Email Network of the Association for Asian American Studies
—————————————————————
* Coordinator:
================================================================

— End —

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:41:03 -0400 (EDT)
To: HarryWLew@aol.com
cc: cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NY Times article on Affirm. Action

Dear Harry (and CACers)
In a message dated 10/10/97 3:21:38 AM, you wrote:

<>

I’m not sure we’re looking at the same study. The so-called liberal New York
Times article I referred to was discussing an article for JAMA conducted by
two male doctors. BTW, I take issue with your assessment of the NY Times.
It prints op-ed pieces by conservatives as well as liberals. Only those
considered too radical to either extremes are left out. In general, the NY
Times is a bit “conservative” (I doubt that these labels really tap into
anything approximating theological or social reality).

<>

I agree with you on this point. It’s true that when it comes to issues like
Affirm. Action in higher education, Asian Americans are usually not
considered “under-represented.” In the arena of higher education, Asian
Americans do quite well. This can be attributed to culture, though I’m
inclined to believe that immigration policy and other social factors
contribute more to Asian American educational “success” (brain-drain and
“Hong”-couver, Canada are good examples).

However, upon graduation, the story is different. Asian Americans usually
are paid less than whites for the same work.

<>

It’s tempting to personalize such situations – especially since so much of it
is anecdotal. What I find interesting is how nothing is said about white
admissions. What happens when a white student with a lower or equal GPA or
SAT score, but greater extra-curricula participation is admitted instead of a
Chinese student without the extra-curricula “merits” (e.g., sports, president
of the student body, glee club president)? There were/are many cases where
Chinese-Americans are passed over because they were not considered
“well-rounded” enough. Dana Tagaki’s study of the Asian American protest
against quotas at select universities in the 1980s showed how admissions
policies often shifted when Asians were placed in competition with whites (to
be fair, they were often in competition with whites with connections – e.g.,
parents are Harvard alumni). “Merit” alone did not (and I suspect, does not)
always work in favor of Asian Americans, especially if we are we are put in
direct competition with whites.

So rather than assuming that meritocracy is fair and then comparing ourselves
with Blacks or Hispanics, it may be helpful to ask whether meritocracy really
works for us as well, particularly when we are matched up against white men.
No offense to my white brethren who are not direct recipients of white elite
privilege (indeed, they should identify with people of color, too), but as I
see the American social reality, it amounts to “old boys’ club for us [i.e.,
white male elites], meritocracy for everyone else.”

<>

By defending affirmative action, I am not suggesting that it is the best
solution. But the alternative (meritocracy and the free market) is also not
fair and not in our best interest. I’m not sure that the “large majority” of
Chinese-Americans are opposed to affirm. action, but it would help if we all
learned more about the history of race relations (would you be interested in
David Yoo and my piece on race relations for the upcoming Sojourners
curriculum?). Asian Americans may not need it as much as other racial
minorities (though I’m not so sure about this), but short of embracing the
world as it is, I can think of few ideas that address institutional racism as
well.

<

>

Why is Shelby Steele considered “sensible” and “eloquent”? What background
and expertise does he have to make broad sweeping generalizations about what
is best for African Americans? How deeply connected is he with the pain and
pathos of the African American communities? Finally, what would YOU say is
the “deeper issue” of why African-Americans cannot compete with whites and
Asian Americans? Do you think they have a cultural pathology (as Sowell
asserts)? Is there a genetic connection between race and intelligence?

Perhaps the sickness is in the marketplace culture we all inhabit – after
all, what promotes greed, sex, and violence more than global capitalism and
its unabashed promotion of consumerism and selfishness?

On a “deeper level” my advocacy of affirmative action is a mere concession to
the pragmatics of survival in the sick world we live in today. All the
competition for grades, jobs, wealth, and glory promoted by society
contradicts Christian values of community, trust, and compassion. So even if
the playing field is made more level by affirmative action, I have questions
about the playing field itself and the rules of the game. What do you think?

Thanks for giving some more substance to the debate, Harry.

In Christ,
who is God’s affirmative action for the world,
Tim Tseng

————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com
————————————————————

— End —

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:24:22 -0400
From: djchuang@ix.netcom.com
To: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: Persecution in China

=== forwarded message on persecution in China ===
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 11:57:32 EDT
From: gdot@juno.com

Originally from: Justin Long
Originally dated: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:25:07 -0700 (PDT)

FLASH: PETER XU SENTENCED TO LOGAI CAMP
FOR IMMEDIATE GLOBAL PUBLIC DISSEMINATION
____________________________________________________________

Contact:
Justin Long, Associate Editor, World Christian Encyclopedia
Managing Editor, Eternity’s Edge Web Site
Tel (804) 355-1646, fax (804) 355-2016
Email
JustinLong@xc.org, Web http://www.frontiermissions.org

It has been learned from family members that on September 25th a court
in Zhengzhou sentenced Peter Xu (Xu Yongze) to reform through labor
(at a laogai camp) for disturbing the public peace. The length of the
sentence is unclear at this point. No family members were advised
about the sentencing (or the trial which presumably preceded it). It
is not clear whether Peter was provided with a lawyer at any point in
the process, since no one was able to see him. It is possible that
Peter Xu will be permitted to appeal the sentence. Four others
arrested at the same time as Xu were to be sentenced
separately today or tomorrow, according to Xu’s family members.

This case is pivotal because Peter Xu is the leader of one of the
largest house church movements in China, commonly known as the Full
Scope Church or the Born Again Movement. The government of China has
attempted to label him a cult leader–the equivalent of arresting an
evangelist of the stature of Billy Graham and attempting to make him
out to be a David Koresh-type figure. If successful this could set a
precedent for the way the Chinese government will deal with the
unofficial house church leadership.

Family members have asked first of all for prayer and secondly
that concern be expressed to Chinese officials through appropriate
channels. This should not be done in a manner that could be construed
as trying to pressure the Chinese government, as this could close the
door to effective communication in the future. International attention
is extremely appropriate. It is necessary that China see Xu’s case as
not simply an issue for the United States, but for Christians around
the world. Accordingly, at this time we make the following
recommendations for Christians worldwide:

1. Pray for Peter Xu, especially for the possibility of appeal. Pray
also for his family members. We particularly urge special prayer
events on behalf of Peter Xu and the house church movement in China as
part of the ongoing season of prayer for the persecuted church in the
United States, and the International Day of Prayer for the Persecuted
Church being held on November 16.

2. Human rights organizations and NGOs, particularly those in
nations other than the United States, are urged to inform the
Chinese government of their concern on this issue. Again political
pressure of any sort is not recommended–simply a notification of
concern, a request for information on the case, and the assertion that
this sentencing is unjust.

3. Let others know about the case of Peter Xu and invite them to
join in prayer. Become a mobilizer within your sphere of influence
(family, friends, church members) for the persecuted church in
general.

4. Quash any and all rumors with correct information. If you have a
question about any piece of news you see on the Internet, please feel
free to forward it to me (email to JustinLong@xc.org) and I will have
it reviewed for accuracy.

5. Don’t jump hastily to any overt public action other than prayer and
a general expression of concern. However, keep watching this and other
Internet channels for further information.

________________________________________________________________
Justin D. Long Never retreat. Never surrender.
Global Evangelization Movement Never, ever, cut a deal with a
dragon.
(804) 355-1646, Fax 355-2016 Email JustinLong@xc.org

— End —

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:20:43 -0400 (EDT)
To: gdot@juno.com
cc: Cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NY Times article on Affirm. Action

G:

Good point!

Beyond the practice of affirmative action in higher ed., you got me thinking
about all our previous conversation about PK and how late they were at
acknowledging Asian Americans. Could one say that, albeit late, PK’s recent
inclusion of AA leadership is a form of affirmative action? If so, then that
would impact the future of Christian leadership, wouldn’t it?

Also, remember Ken Fong’s poignant remarks about how Fuller’s search
committee could not identify a qualified Asian American faculty? What if
that committee had decided to take a chance on a less established Asian
American professor? Certainly that prof. would be less qualified than other
white male professors (the fact is the pool of established applicants are
higher among white males). If a junior Asian American was selected, all the
anti-affirmative action activists would cry foul, wouldn’t they?

But if no institution takes a chance on a less established Asian American
prof., then where will future Asian American seminary profs. come from?
Where will programs and scholarship that gives Asian American seminarians
better preparation and support come from?

Give the mainline seminaries some credit (not too much, but some) for hiring
less established Asian American profs. in the past. Some are now better
established and are reshaping seminary education and the theological
disciplines in ways that will help future Asian American Christians in
ministry. But seminaries that do not use “racial affirmative action” in
faculty hires will probably never become very racially diverse or inclusive
of Asian Americans in the foreseeable future.

The same can be said of the denominations some of us are part of. Unless a
denomination proactively invites Asian Americans to participate in its
mission, few Asian Americans will be represented. On the other hand, Asian
Americans can also demand to be part of the life of a denomination – but then
risk being labeled one of those “whining” groups. In either case,
affirmative action or something similar which demands racial recognition is
the only way to develop Asian American Christian leaders within these
settings.

Finally, what about the many independent churches? These congregations are
often disconnected from any structured organizations that leadership
development can only reach a certain level. Should any of these independent
congregations get tied into a broader group such as PK, the Christian
Coalition, a congregation-based community organizing network, or city
councils, then there would be opportunities for further leadership
development. But, even then, a case must be presented for greater Asian
American representation. And again, we are back to the need for something
like affirmative action, which takes our race into account if we are to ever
find a place at the table.

Then again, why bother to “integrate”?

Tim

In a message dated 10/10/97 9:18:58 AM, gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson) wrote:

<>

————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com
————————————————————

— End —

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:26:54 -0400 (EDT)
To: outreach@ipa.net
cc: cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: WOMEN & MINISTRY

Ray:

A very intriguing response, indeed. Chivalry is not dead, apparently.

I’m not a Pauline or Petrine scholar, but I play one in seminary [though
rarely] 🙂 Anyway, I wonder whether you see Paul’s writings as both
historical (i.e., responding to culture and social changes in his world) AND
inspired by God? I do. Consequently, I think it is important to look at his
writings not as legalistic prescriptions, but living responses to both the
Holy Spirit and Paul’s cultural context.

Thus, I wonder why Paul was so open to women in leadership (was there such a
thing as ordination in the New Testament?) in Acts, Romans, Galatians, and,
to some degree, Philippians – but then makes those few anti-women remarks in
Ephesians, I Corinthians, and the Timothy’s. Could it be because the early
Christian movement started off radically egalitarian, then was accused of
subverting Greco-Roman family values? Was Paul worried that this radical
redefinition of “family” by the early believers would jeopardize their surviva
l? After all, why would Paul insert the “hierarchical” Roman family codes in
Eph. and Colossians if the church assumed them to be true all along?
Furthermore, in his anti-women statements, was he really endorsing
Greco-Roman cultural values which considered women “incomplete men” (I quote
from Galen)?

Also, your concern about androgeny (i.e., the dissolution of sexual or gender
differentiation) is not really the issue for “biblical egalitarians” like
myself. Difference can be (ought to be) affirmed without imposing hierarchy
or headship language. Few feminists today would want to be men, just
equality. So I disagree with your implication that Scripture endorses the
formulae: equality = androgeny or that hierarchy (headship) =
differentiation. Surely, you would not use this argument with regards to
racial differences!

Re: sending women into dangerous combat zones. Wow! This reminded me of the
criticism that single women received when they sought to be missionaries to
China or America’s Chinatowns in the 19th century. Check your missionary
history (Jane Hunter, The Gospel of Gentility or Peggy Pascoe, Relations of
Rescue). If not for these courageous women, the gospel may never have
reached the Chinese! Few male missionaries were as effective as these women
in China or Chinatown. Had these women accommodated entirely to Victorian
cultural expectations, many of us on this list would not be so passionately
contending for the Faith! (For that matter, had Chinese Bible women not step
outside the boundaries of 19th Century Chinese gender system, Christianity
may have utterly failed in China).

In a message dated 10/10/97 7:17:15 AM, you wrote:

<>

————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com
————————————————————

— End —

To: gymsung@bu.edu
Cc: cac@emwave.net
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:55:04 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: CAC: Women & Men
From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)

Dear Grace:

I like your reply–very gracious:) Have you heard of Suzette Haden Elgin?
Somebody told me about her books on ‘the gentle art of verbal self
defense’. Sounds like you may have read–or mastered–her teaching along
with Paul’s. I guess I really don’t know about this, Do you think of Paul
as a ‘gentle’ as a communicator?

Bro. G

On Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:56:00 +0000 Grace May writes:
>Bro G:
> “Pauline” is simply an adjectival form of Paul often used to
>refer to
>the epistles penned by the apostle.

— End —

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:56:54 -0400 (EDT)
To: ben_mel@juno.com
cc: Cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: God raising women to bring in the harvest

Hi Ben:

I didn’t interpret Ken’s posting about women in leadership as one of
pragmatism or expediency. Rather, I thought he (and Grace in her article for
the Priscilla papers) established a guiding principle for how Holy Scripture
is to be interpreted by citing Genesis 1-2. So, while I think your point
about elevating Asian American leadership to the standards of I Tim 3 is a
valid concern, how that passage will be interpreted (and more importantly,
how that interpretation will impact the practice of ministry or the life of a
congregation) in light of one’s operating hermeneutic is just as important.
Many evangelicals believe that the abolitionist principle (see Craig Keener’s
works) [or what others call the Prophetic Protestant principle] undergirds a
proper interpretation of Holy Scripture. This principle disavows
hierarchical, repressive, legalistic ways of looking at Scripture in favor of
a more communitarian and egalitarian vision of the Kingdom of God. Even more
evangelicals embrace the Southern strategy – a hermeneutic originally
designed to justify slavery – but now used with a vengeance to advocate more
rigid and hierarchical interpretations and actions. The Southern strategy is
quite understandable because in our post-modern era of confusion and
fragmentation, many are tempted to return to hierarchy in order to impose
some sense of order to a society that seems to be spinning out of control.
But, I believe that this is a mistaken strategy. More often it leads to
witch hunts and repressive regimes rather than genuine religious freedom and
social responsibility.

Granted, these two “hermeneutical principles” are simplistic heuristic
devices, but they help me understand how our different sub-cultures influence
the way we interpret God’s Word. It also helps to be consciously aware of
how our social location or culture influences our interpretation of the Bible
and Christian action in the world.

So, if we are to train good and godly leadership, it seems that we’ll have to
encourage them to wrestle with these hermeneutical issues at the same time
that they wrestle with the Scriptural standards you rightly call leaders to
attain. – Tim

In a message dated 10/9/97 4:15:52 PM, ben_mel@juno.com wrote:

<>

————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com
————————————————————

— End —

To: cac@emwave.net
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:02:30 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NY Times article on Affirm. Action
From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)

On Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:41:03 -0400 (EDT) TSTseng@aol.com writes:
>Dear Harry (and CACers)…
> ..I see the American social reality, it amounts to “old boys” club for
us
>[i.e., white male elites], meritocracy for everyone else..

FYI, two references which provide astonishing background support for
Tim’s point here, esp for the separation between the “[super-]elite” and
“everyone else.” IMO it is irrelevant to our super-elites whether
‘affirmative action’ or ‘meritocracy’ functions as long as THEIR system
of commerce and power functions and prevails over us (globally).

1. _The Rich and the Super Rich_, A Study in the Power of Money Today.
Ferdinand Lundberg, Lyle Stuart, Inc. New York. 1968. (No ISBN #). ~800
pages inc appendices and notes.

This book documents how the few who own America keep it, have kept their
wealth and their power through intricate private corporations and
tax-exempt foundations and trusts. Even though this book is 30 years
old, it accurately depicts the roots of reality today with respect to the
on-going, evolving organization/structure/transfer/policy of American
power/wealth.

2. _Thy Will Be Done_ , The Conquest of the Amazon: Nelson Rockefeller
and Evangelism in the Age of Oil. Gerard Colby, Charlotte Dennette.
Harper Collins. 1995. ISBN 0-06-016764-5. ~925 pages inc. appendices and
notes.

This book documents the role of Cam Townsend and Wycliffe Bible
Translators in (naive?) service of the interests of Standard Oil Corp.
partic in S. America–not a pretty picture. If you value basic God-given
humanity–beware. Read this and weep:(

— End —

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:05:11 -0400 (EDT)
To: ohbrudder@prodigy.net
cc: cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: up to 20 cents now

Bill:

I’m sure Joe can defend himself, but I didn’t get the impression that he was
putting down your daughter or calling her a “fool.” I understood his original
message to be a question about two things:

1. The validity of personal testimonies or individual religious experiences.
2. Whether these testimonies or experiences may lead to an excessive
individualism – one that is not accountable to a community.

If I’m correct, I think these are legitimate questions to be addressed.

I honestly believe that you may have misread Joe’s comments or intentions.

Tim

————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com
————————————————————

— End —

From: RevCow@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 03:47:49 -0400 (EDT)
To: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: Reality vs. Virtuality

Hello!

My name’s Ted, and I’m the pastor of Harvest San Gabriel Valley (southern
CA). Hsgv was founded Easter ’97 by the Evangelical Formosan Church of
LA. I can share more in a following post regarding this new ministry.

CAC discussions of late have been quite enjoyable. It’s a nice change to
have discussions actually relate to Chinese American Church issues.

Having been under Bill Leong’s spiritual care for several years in the
late 70’s-early 80’s, an acquaintance of Michelle Leong’s during that
same period, her pastor for several years in the early-mid ’90’s, and
more recently her friend, I wanted to vouch for Michelle. She is a
highly gifted believer with many ministry skills, and is deeply committed
to giving her life to the cause of Christ and His Gospel. I find it
awkward that a testimony shared by a seasoned pastor that should be a
reason for 1) giving God glory and 2) women in ministry encouragement,
instead there is doubt and cynicism.

So in the spirit of Matthew 18:16, I’m confirming the facts shared by
Bill regarding Michelle’s life. Since the relevant posts were public, so
is this verification. If you’re a literalist, you might want to ask
another person or two for confirmation. 🙂 Art, want to make up the
other half/third of the “by the mouth of two or three witnesses”?

Keep up the Kingdom work,
Ted

Rev. Ted Kau
Harvest San Gabriel Valley

If you have the Spirit without the Word, you blow up.
If you have the Word without the Spirit, you dry up.
If you have both the Word and the Spirit, you grow up.
–Don Lyon

— End —

From: RevCow@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 04:06:34 -0400 (EDT)
To: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: Free PK Poster

Hi everyone,

The organization for whom I work, the Family Research Council, is
offering a FREE 18X24 inch aerial poster of the 1997 Promise Keeper
gathering (call 1-800-225-4008). Please pass the news, and be sure to
request one. Thanks!

–Gracie Hsu

************
I apologize if you’ve received a duplicate of this already.

Ted

Rev. Ted Kau
Harvest San Gabriel Valley

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation
be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a
conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift of
God?”
–Thomas Jefferson, 1781

— End —

To: TSTseng@aol.com
Cc: Cac@emwave.net
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 03:00:39 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NY Times article on Affirm. Action
From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)

Tim:

Lot’s to think about; thanks for your response(s)/questions today
(10/10). Others may add more thoughts as we move along…

For now, though, looking at the last question raised, below, do you have
in mind the idea of ‘inclusion’ which Grace mentioned to Sze-kar the
other day (that email is not on this machine or I’d quote it); i.e.
global racial ‘inclusion’ rooted in Gal. 3:28? I mean, if we compare the
word ‘inclusion’ and the word ‘integration’ as bases for (global!)
community, then, for one thing, your question takes on a very radical
implication. Perhaps, Who needs ‘integration’ if ‘inclusion’ is real?

Just wondering:)

G

On Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:20:43 -0400 (EDT) TSTseng@aol.com writes:
>Then again, why bother to “integrate”?

— End —

Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:33:13 -0700
From: Ken Fong
Organization: Evergreen Baptist Church
To: TSTseng@aol.com
CC: outreach@ipa.net, cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: WOMEN & MINISTRY

Ray…

Dr. Tseng has send it far better than I could. His thoughts and words
express most of mine in response to your queries. Thanks, Tim!

ken fong

— End —

Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:38:07 -0700
From: Ken Fong
Organization: Evergreen Baptist Church
To: TSTseng@aol.com
CC: ohbrudder@prodigy.net, cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: up to 20 cents now

I, too, think you, Bill, misread Joe’s comments, esp. the one about
calling your daughter a “fool.” If you reread his quote, I believe you
will see that he was making reference to HIMSELF as being a “foolish”
enough to express his opinion regarding your daughter’s testimony. I
understand your fatherly impulse to protect your daughter’s honor. I
admired that.

ken fong.

— End —

Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:09:24 -0400
From: Sze-kar Wan
To: CAC
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: A technical note

Dear Stephen:

Not that I’ve done any systematic work on NT greetings (like everything
else in bib studies, there is an enormous literature on the topic), but
here are some superficial observations.

Since Paul is the earliest letter writer, Petrine and Johannine
greetings are most likely derivative. 2 Pet 3.15-16 is clear evidence
that the Petrine and Pauline sectors of early Christianity reconciled
after the terrible fallout at Antioch (Gal 3.11-14); the 1 Peter (1.2)
greeting is therefore most likely modelled after Paul’s. Strictly
speaking, 2 Jn 3 is not a greeting: the tense is future (thus
eschatological not now) and it is in the 1st person plural (not 2d
person).

The earliest Pauline greeting is probably 1 Thess 1.1, which is
mistranslated, I think, in the NIV. It ought to be, literally, “Grace
to you and peace!” not “Grace and peace to you.” The NASB, bc of its
literalism, has it right. The difference is that peace, the Hebrew
shalom which Israelis still use to greet each other with, is not to be
granted in the same way grace is, at least not acc to Paul. While
shalom is a standard greeting, the addition of “grace” is a Pauline
innovation to refer to special gift from God through the Spirit. Thus,
when Paul wanted to stress that God has given him a special commission
as well (thus putting him on a par with Peter, John, and James; Gal
2.1-10), he used “grace” (v. 9).

Likewise, a spiritual gift (“charisma”) is the result of grace
(“charis”), acc 1 Cor 12. To combat Corinthian factionalism, Paul
wanted to distinguish sharply what comes from human beings (i.e., what
comes natural) from what comes from the Spirit. By this logic, the
underlying power for such spiritual tasks as preaching, teaching,
performing miracles, speaking in tongues, etc. comes from the Spirit.
We human beings have no ground to boast, bc as soon as the Spriit
withdraws from us, so also the power or the charisma.

This is why we must NOT confuse gift or grace with talent or anything we
inherit naturally as human beings. The former is given to us strictly
acc to the freedom of the Spirit; we can no more coax the Spirit to
grant it to us than we can make God conform to our theology. The latter
we acquire when we were formed: our gender, intelligence, social and
economic background, education, ethnicity, culture, parents, experience,
community, etc. Not all of which are good, most are neutral, some can
be downright evil (an extreme example: a genetic predilection for
pedophilia), and none can be called “gift” in the Pauline sense.

Paul later added an additional phrase, “from our Father and Lord…,” to
the short formula ofs 1 Thess 1.1 without any apparent change of
meaning.

Respectfully,
Sze-kar

— End —

To: Cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: A recent subscriber:
From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 22:56:20 EDT

Oct. 11, ’97

Hi:

The grace and peace of God and of our Lord Jesus Christ be abounding to
you.

I am a recent subscriber to CAC. Here is a brief description to identify
with my name.

My name is Benjamin Wong. Call me Ben. My e-mail is Ben_mel@juno.com.
I am an ABC. At present I am the English pastor at the Chinese Community
Church of San Francisco. I entered the ministry in 1961 (long time ago).

The Lord God led me into two very different type of churches (not the
extent of churches). The first one was of tremendous joy. I was
involved in starting a brand new church (almost 20 yrs.). This was of
such blessings in learning and growing in understanding of God’s ways and
thots and in seeing a church take shape and mature. It was also a great
blessing to have so much freedom in doing and leading as the Bible
indicated. The second one (about 6 yrs.) was an established church that
was primarily OBC. Although there were cultural problems, the most
debilitating problems were the non-Biblical “traditions” that were
already established. Yes, the cultural problems are also a great
obstacle.

One other thing. I have had a concern that greatly influenced my serving
the Lord and my teaching. Not unique but it explains some of my
comments. In entering into His ministry I knew my responsibility was to
speak for God, whether in preaching or teaching. While still in seminary
I questioned whether I knew that what I was saying was of God or of
myself. I did not want to say this is of God when it was actually of me.
I am not the inventor of truth. I am not God. I am not infallible in
truth. The people of God must not see me as their source of truth.
Through the years I only dare say it is of God if I believed I truly
understood that was what the Bible said; otherwise I would acknowledge
that it was only my opinion. My opinions can be and are often wrong.
But in a clear understanding of the Bible it cannot be wrong, even if it
offends my reasonings, my experiences, my feelings, or the reasonings ,
experiences, feellings of others; be they the majority, the scholarly,
and/or the professionals. The offense will cause me to challenge my
reasonings as well as all conflicting opinions.

That’s it for now. I am delighted to have learned of CAC.

Ben

— End —

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 01:56:37 -0400 (EDT)
To: gdot@juno.com
cc: Cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: NY Times article on Affirm. Action

G:

I think you hit it on the head – though I didn’t mean it quite the way you
expressed it. The key question is what does it mean for a Christian
institution to “really” include different people? Will “inclusion” be done
on the terms of those who dominate an institution? (e.g., a Chinese speaking
congregation demanding that everything it does be done in Chinese, a
predominantly white institution defining what constitutes “merit” despite the
fact that other groups may have a different understanding, etc.) Or will
“inclusion” mean that the institution will learn how to negotiate the terms
expressed by the various interested parties. For example, when our
fabulously talented (no sarcasm, I am sincere about this) AA leaders are
invited by PK, are they expected to conform completely to the expectations of
the PK brass or will they have an opportunity to direct recognition,
attention, and resources towards AA concerns? False inclusion will be very
happy to have these AA brethren be part of photo shoots, tell their
testimonies, or make PK look good, but will not give these same AA brethren
serious recognition of their concerns (tokenism). True inclusion will make a
place at the table where the AA leaders can build their own constituency up,
have resources to do so, and some degree of freedom to contextualize these
resources to more adequately relate to the AA constituency (empowerment).
This scenario applies to every situation where AAs and other racial
minorities are invited into a “mainstream” organization, including
denominations.

In sum, if an institution is serious about inclusion, it will somehow
encourage empowerment rather than tokenism. But that institution must also
be prepared to be transformed so that the concerns of those who are not in
dominant positions will also be discussed and addressed seriously. Once an
institution has done this and has developed a relationship of trust with its
varied constituencies, then it may be fair to say that real inclusion has
occurred. Then, one wouldn’t worry about the integration question.

But do you think this will happen? For example, do you think PK will ever
invite those clearly identified as politically liberal to shape it’s
organization’s future? Clearly, the Family Research Council has played a
major role in underwriting the recent DC event – would they (the FRC) allow
PK to invite Christians for Biblical Equality or Marion Wrights Edelman
(sp?)? I’m not saying that PK is wrong for connecting with FRC even though I
disagree with most of FRC’s proposals. But if PK presents itself as truly
inclusive of all professed evangelical Christians, then shouldn’t “liberal”
evangelicals like myself be included? If FRC won’t permit PK to include
those of different political ideologies (I may be wrong about this), that’s
fine. FRC may well be PK’s strongest constituency. But then shouldn’t PK
openly identify itself as a politically conservative evangelical men’s
movement. (but we all know that’s not how the game is played – mainline
denominations have not been all that honest either, for they tend to exclude
the most conservative Christians, too)

In the same way, seminaries (liberal or conservative) which do not “truly”
include racial minorities should openly call themselves _______ “white”
theological seminary. Our Chinese congregations are honest enough to call
themselves what they are. But honesty is too difficult to make a public
virtue in America.

So, Gary, what alternatives do you think there are if we are to nurture the
biblical “inclusion” found in Galatians in our institutions? I think your
union organizing background may be key. – Tim

In a message dated 10/11/97 4:14:11 AM, gdot@juno.com wrote:

<>

————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com
————————————————————

— End —

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 02:07:42 -0400 (EDT)
To: kenfong@earthlink.net
cc: cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: WOMEN & MINISTRY

Ken:

Sorry to disagree with you, friend – I could never say anything better than
you can. 🙂

Thanks! and blessings upon your ministry and your loved ones! – Tim

In a message dated 10/11/97 11:42:25 AM, kenfong@earthlink.net wrote:

<>

————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com
————————————————————

— End —

To: Cac@emwave.net
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:47:18 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NY Times article on Affirm. Action
From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)

On Sun, 12 Oct 1997 01:56:37 -0400 (EDT) TSTseng@aol.com writes:
>G:
>..honesty is too difficult to make a public virtue in America…

Tim:

I agree and (continuing in the Spirit with thoughts Supplied) you
wonderful Chinese people “also were included in Christ when you heard the
word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were
marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit
guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s
possession–to the praise of his glory.”

Sze-kar and Grace (I’ll try to type this accurately–I wish I could blame
it on an amanuensis:) Are these NIV verses, Eph. 1, translated
correctly? The wording ‘included in Christ’ is the only theological usage
of it that I know of. Do you know of any others? Expound if you’d like
to.

“Fabulous” ones: I agree with Tim about you and that fabulous saints are
experiencing ‘exclusion’ (dis-integration?). My guess is that it is
because ‘inclusion’ in the sense of Eph. 1 is not a present reality for
many (other) Christians 😦

How is this possible?

It appears to me that those who are really ‘included’ acc to Paul, are
those who’ve stopped lying now, i.e. accepted ‘the word of truth’, which
is ‘salvation’. These are those who (actively) believe Jesus, therefore
they are ‘included in Christ’.

On this basis many Chinese people, some of whom I’ve been reading
religiously:) on CAC net, are in some sort of MOST favored status! Having
believed in Jesus, His Holy Spirit ‘marks’ you with ‘a seal’.
‘Included’, i.e. ‘sealed’, you are then ‘possessed’.

May I ask politely, What does this mean to you? Do you tend to ‘include’
others as you should? In my case, you do! Even those who may disagree
with me exhibit acceptance. Though Swedish-Am. , I feel ‘included in
Christ’ and loved by CAC. Thank you!

>..Gary, what alternatives do you think there are if we are to nurture
the
> biblical “inclusion” found in Galatians in our institutions?

hmm…Tim, here’s an initial (humorous) thought re: ‘our institutions’:
If you and Sze-kar would like to start an institution for ‘possessed’
people, I’ll agree to be your first student 🙂 If you guys get out of
hand, though, may I lead a strike? 🙂

All on this for now.

Praising God today,

Your Bro. G

P.S. Tim, also for Ken Fong: What is the role of Weyerhauser Corp. in
the management of Fuller Seminary? I heard that their family which is
Fuller’s main contributor owns ~15% of the land (not just timberland) in
the Northwest. Is this true? Do they (properly) employ Chinese people in
their businesses? There might be an interesting correlation (of some
sort) between (their) Seminary and business management. G

— End —

From: JWongCDI@aol.com
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:45:41 -0400 (EDT)
To: RevCow@aol.com
cc: cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Reality vs. Virtuality

Hi Ted;

Thank you for your response, and I apologize to you also for being a bit
obtuse in my writing.
Thank you, Ken. You’re evaluation is much more accurate.

If I may, I’ll include excerpts of my response to Bill. And, oooops, I
didn’t know you were writing about your daughter, Bill. I, too, am a pastor
and proud of my daughter.
Joseph Wong
>>> <<<

Date: Fri, Oct 10, 1997 1:32 PM EDT
From: JWongCDI
Subj: Much more than 20 cents
To: ohbrudder@prodigy.net

Hi Bill;

Thank you for responding to my inquiry, which is from a pastoral concern that
our faith be based on what is real. I do not attack nor do inquisitions on
young Christians, but do challenge their thinking, believing that they are
ready to learn and eager to know what is true in Christ.

I knew when I wrote that the brevity is capable of brewing misunderstanding,
knowing the natural patterns… Cynicism is not what I was writing from, but
I acknowledge, can be interpreted as such. Neither was I writing to the one
who gave testimony.

Instead, I was writing to those charged with guiding Christians, asking for a
deeper evaluation of how well we are doing. I remember, as a young
Christian, many times when I shared my testimony or observations, I was
hoping that a more mature believer would help me evaluate the accuracy or
validity of what I said. "Should I say it again? Should I teach others that
it's reliable?" I did not believe that I had it all right. But, you know
what? I rarely got any input. I didn't know whether to interprete the
silence as "You're right on!" or "Oh no, did he say that?"

I'm concerned that there are Christians who spoke as I did, but no one chose
to interact with, to guide them. Instead, they are simply "branded" (maybe
ostracized by the "orthodox") or "praised." I suspect that the young
believer would appreciate a caring person who would provide wise evaluation
of what was shared, to refine, to make more accurate. I believe Apollos
appreciated those who helped him. I guess for most believers, being an "eye"
witness is all they need to do. However, I'm concern about raising leaders
who will feed and disciple.

In the vocabulary of your "paycheck," I receive considerable satisfaction
also, from those who have been guided toward a renewed mind, who have the
confidence to guide other believers toward a greater faith.

I hope this enlarged sharing of my perspective is useful. Again, thanks,
Bill for the inter-action.

Joe

— End —

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:07:02 -0700
From: OHBRUDDER
To: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: the REAL ISSUE

I re-read Joe’s comments several times to confirm what I initially
thought
to be a cynical retort upon first reading . . . I found at best that
from his theological-view
he did not believe God would provide a job for Michelle in that manner.
God would not
and did not in his world do those kinds of things: answer a girl’s
prayer and desire for a
job or career in ministry. (Perhaps WOMEN DO NOT BELONG IN MINISTRY? And
God wouldn’t violate His Word this way, according to his theology?)
. . . Therefore, we the reader should doubt the reality or validity of
that testimony
for God does not behave that way,. If he or anyone DID believe this is
normative of God,
there would be NO REASON to question the “reality.” (Pastor or not) And
that if Joe or
any of us believe God would behave this way, we are “fools” rushing in .
. . where angels fear to tread, but a “fool” (implied) had previous
treaded there. . .implying Michelle was a “fool.”

Personally, I don’t think Joe would intentionally imply Michelle is a
fool–
but my direct reading, without knowing Joe, tells me he did call her a
fool,
directly or indirectly, because she and her testimony and others with
that
type of testimony was the subject of his comments. One has to take
big leaps of imagination and know Joe personally to draw any other
conclusion.

THE REAL ISSUE. . .is how we relate to God. I’m not putting forth a
right way and a wrong way to relate to God. I am assuming that we are
all born-again, redeemed by Christ. I am making a general observation
that there is a difference in the way we relate to God, and it is
theological and it is personal.

ONE WAY is . . .the way many of my brothers in Christ relate to God
academically. Their knowledge of God is primarily through their
understanding of Scripture. To know His Word more is to know God more.
What God will do, or not do, is entirely in the Word–at least as far as
their understanding. They relate to God in a more scholarly,
intellectual, didactic way. God is alive and active, but in a more
removed, distant way . . . orchestrating His sovereign plan in silence
and methodically. Let the Word do His speaking.

This is my observation and because it is not me, I can’t identify with
them completely and may even be slightly off base. . . but I am in the
ball park. I think it is from this perspective that Joe made his
comments. I think this is also why there is a vigorous debate about
WOMAN IN MINISTRY. I think this is why discussions about LEADERSHIP and
CULTURE and other ABC ministry concerns run in loops—the “language”
(or presuppositions) is different and the house is thus divided against
itself . . . no unity; and the discussions bear forth little action and
what action called for is for more cultural study and seminars and more
discussions.

ANOTHER WAY is . . .the way I relate to God . . . personally. My
knowledge of God is through the Word as well, but I really got to know
Him intimately through my personal experiences: in worship, in my
suffering, hearing His voice, obedience, working with and by His Spirit
with His gifts, visions, talking to Him casually as a friend. I’ve cried
a lot in His presence, and I’ve sat silent in puzzlement. To know Christ
in me more is to know God more. I believe that the more I die to
myself, the more Christ shows up through me; I do not merely behave more
ethically and morally like Christ, but just like Christ, I’ll speak what
the Father tells me and do what the Father does. I will feel His passion
and compassion as I sense His heart; I might get very emotional in those
times and often may get stirred to do His work. I will expect and see
miracles, and healings because that was the way Jesus did things in the
NT and He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. If He wants to
work thru me, I pray I don’t get in the way . . . like limiting Him with
my faith. Christ in me the hope of glory; Christ in me, in each of us,
the hope of the ABC’s plight.

I know many scholars, theologians, and sincere believers do not believe
God speaks to individuals today, only through the Holy Bible. And I
agree that for them God will not speak to them directly. When Jesus said
to the blind men, “According to your faith will it be done to you” it
cutS both way; for if they did not believe, they were not going to get
heal. I am NOT putting anyone down for their faith; this is how they
relate to God and it is wonderful they have a relationship with God
however way they relate to Him.

But my experience runs a different course and I relate to God more
personally. And I ALWAYS relate what I am hearing and experiencing with
Scripture. . . I throw it out if I find contradiction with Scripture. .
. and often there is a check in my spirit, my “peace” is disturbed when
I discern it is not of God. I have to be careful about what I say in
public, anyway, because I could get labeled weird, or a “fool.” I would
immediately lose credibility with the “scholars.” I believe this is what
really happened with Joe’s remarks (perhaps well-meaning).

In the words of Oswald Chambers in “My Utmost for His Highest,”
“Never start to say, “Well, I wonder if he really did speak to me?” Be
reckless immediately–totally unrestrained and willing to risk
everything–by casting your all upon him. You will only be able to
recognize his voice more clearly thru recklessness–being willing to
risk your all.”

I have a simplistic solution for the ABC plight. Watch and listen for
God’s move among the ABCs and meanwhile prepare ourselves to bring in
the harvest. I believe He loves ABCs more than we do and if it looks
like we are losing our generation, He has His own timetable and maybe He
sees that we are not yet prepared and ready enough to receive the
harvest . . . He is the Lord of the harvest.

bill leong

— End —

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:46:19 +0000
From: Grace May
To: Benjamin C Wong
CC: Cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: A recent subscriber:

Welcome aboard Ben!
A brief response —
No, personally I do not believe that expediency alone justifies having
women in ministry. However, the Great Commission is strong warrant for
recruiting men and women for ministry. The Scriptures as a whole support
and mandate that we give sisters the same opportunities to answer their
God-given callings as we would their brothers. I have already
mentioned: the preponderence of female leaders in the Bible and the
criteria of gifts (not gender) that the NT clearly sets forth for
ministry in the church. I would also add the passage in Acts 2, where
the Spirit inaugurates the church by raising up women and men to
prophecy, an event in itself that fulfills the OT prophecy by Joel.
As per 1 Tim 3 on the qualities of biblical leadership, would your
reading of v.2 (“husband of one wife”) permit single men to oversee a
church?
Grace

— End —

To: cac@emwave.net
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:49:44 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: the REAL ISSUE
From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)

On Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:07:02 -0700 OHBRUDDER
writes:
>I re-read Joe’s comments several times to confirm what I initially
>thought… Joe [believes] we are “fools”
>bill leong

Bill, I have been thinking, what if Joe made these remarks to me. How
could I accept it? Perhaps I could in terms of an ancient idea I read:

“He who wishes to philosophize..without danger to his soul, must first
become thoroughly foolish in Christ.”

“Just as a person does not use the evil of passion well unless he is a
married man, so no person philosophizes well unless he is a fool, that
is, a Christian.”

(From Martin Luther’s Heidelberg Disputation, Philosophical Theses #29
#30)

I think the “foolishness” of Luther compares favorably to that of O.
Chambers. Luther is a little more humorous, though. His “foolishness” has
been very helpful to me over the years especially in both creating and
resolving disputes 🙂

Bro. G

— End —

To: Cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: Women-men in ministry
From: ben_mel@juno.com (Benjamin C Wong)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 03:38:58 EDT

Hi Grace:
10/13/97

Thanks for the welcome.

I am looking to have my thots and concepts challenged and my
understanding expanded. At times I probably will be frustrated but trust
the Lord will keep me from ranting and being offensive.

In response to your thots.
I believe that God has commanded all Christians to be faithfully serving
in His ministry; male and female. Much of the Scriptures you referred to
would confirm this. The interesting passage would be on the female
prophets; in that it seems to suggest that there are women “elders” in
the church. But a prophet is not necessarily an elder.

I understand the Bible to teach that man is to be the head of the woman.
This was God’s design in creation and not only in God’s wise judgment
(curse) because of their fall. Paul’s instruction for women to have
their head covered and for man to have their head uncovered during
worship, argued for man’s headship from creation; “For man does not
originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created
for the woman’s sake but woman for the man’s sake.” ( I Cor. 11:8-9).
Earlier he had indicated that this headship is quite permanent when he
said, “But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man,
and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.” (I
Cor. 11:3).

We must reject experiences, expediency, and pragmatic needs when they
contradict Scriptures.

Concerning I Tim. 3:2: Yes, I do not see any problem with a single man
overseeing a church, if he meets the other qualifications. We must
understand these qualifications not in an absolute sense but in an
“above reproach” sense. Consider this with the other qualifications;
prudent, not pugnacious, gentle, etc.

The “husband of one wife” is not that he should be a husband, (cf. Paul’s
exhortation to celibacy) but that if he is a husband, he has only one
wife. So also, if he happens to be a father, he must be “keeping his
children under control with all dignity”. But the qualification is not
that he must be a father.

An observation about Gal. 3:28. The context of the passage is over the
foolishness of adding works (works of the Law) to salvation. Salvation
and the benefits of salvation is by faith. One does not have a better
salvation because one is a Jew nor does one have an inferior salvation
because one is a Gentile. Our salvation are the same, we are all one in
Christ. Paul acknowledges the significant differences between Jews and
Gentiles, slaves and free, male and female but affirms that those
differences does not affect our salvations. Would you say that this is
really a verse of excluding rather than including them into our
salvation?

We are not male-believers nor female believers. We are not
Jewish-believers nor Gentile-believers. No, we are Abraham’s offsprings
(:29), that is “those who are of faith” (:7).

Ben

— End —

From: “DJ Chuang”
To: cac@emwave.net
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:59:28 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: INFO about CAC

FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions about CAC

Updated: 14 Oct 97

Note: please post to , not ; the server will
automatically forward messages for a limited time. Thanks! Postings by
non-subscribers (like “spam”) is now blocked.

[This is a monthly posting; * marks What’s New]

Q: How do you post a message to the CAC forum?

A: Send an email message to “cac@emwave.net” [without quotes], and a copy of
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A: Send an email message to “majordomo@emwave.net” and on the first line of
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*Q: Is there an archive of old CAC messages?

A: There is an archive of selected CAC messages and posted articles at the
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Q: I’m only interested in some of the topics. What can I do?

A: As the list has grown, almost quadrupled in size within the past year,
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Q: What is this CAC mailing list?

A: The CAC Forum is an informal “mailing list” online discussion for Chinese
American Christians, where we discuss many issues related to (but not limited
to) Chinese American Christians, including campus ministry and ethnic church
issues, as well as some political issues concerning Asian Americans. As an
informal forum, you may also share ministry opportunities and prayer requests
accordingly.

Q: What does CAC stand for?

A: CAC is Chinese American Christians. Although the scope of discussions often
discuss Asian American issues and sometimes generic topics, the name stuck
because of its origin.

Q: How many subscribers are there on CAC?

A: Currently we have more than 180 ministry leaders and laypersons. Please
forward this message to others who may be interested in the CAC forum.

Q: How does a “mailing list” work?

A: CAC is run by an automated computer program, called a “listserver”, which
send copies of email messages to all CAC subscribers. Currently the listserver
is undergoing some technical transition, but that should be transparent to
you.

Q: When was CAC started and automated?

A: The list was started in 1995 by Drs. Timothy Tseng and Sze-Kar Wan. CAC
used to be a manually propagated carbon copy email, but was automated in
summer of 1996. We hope to bring Chinese American Christians together using
the latest technology so that we can share our ideas and resources on
furthering the cause of the Christ.

*Q: Is there a moderator for CAC?

A: DJ Chuang is the list manager; there is not a
moderator for the ongoing discussions.

* * new email

— End —

From: TSTseng@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:09:39 -0400 (EDT)
To: Cac@emwave.net
cc: gdot@juno.com
Subject: Re: Re: CAC_Mail: NY Times article on Affirm. Action

Bro. G:

In a message dated 10/12/97 8:50:50 PM, gdot@juno.com wrote:

<>

If you enroll, you won’t be permitted to strike until after you pay your
tuition. Afterwards, I may join you. 🙂

<

>

Now, now, Gary. Leave poor Fuller alone. They already have to worry about
being labeled “liberals” (which means that their faithfulness to the Faith is
questioned in some circles). The fact that the Weyerhauser family is still
so supportive of Fuller, despite the seminary’s courageous stand on some
“controversial” issues, offers some hope, don’t you think? Other seminaries
have been know to be “wimps” in the face of the changing political winds.

Tim

————————————————————
Rev. Dr. Timothy Tseng
Sallie Knowles Crozer Assistant Professor of American Religious History
Colgate-Rochester Divinity School
1100 South Goodman Street
Rochester, NY 14620
OFF: (716) 271-1320, ext. 260
FAX: (716) 271-8013
Email: tstseng@aol.com
————————————————————

— End —

From: SKYLeung@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:13:13 -0400 (EDT)
To: wans@monet.bc.edu
cc: cac@emwave.net
Subject: CAC_Mail: 20 cents, issues, and the experiential

Brother Sze-kar,

Thank you for your timely and thorough response. I’m thankful for such ready
scholarship that would address a musing I tossed in after midnight…

I’m wondering, however, if your systematic work dealing with revelation might
shed any light on the recent discussion about testimonies. I might presume
that Brother Joseph’s original, primary intent was not to call Brother Bill’s
daughter a fool. Rather he was asking if the individual, subjective, sharing
of what God has done is always valid and beneficial.

Granted that testimonies are often “individualistic.” But, intuitively, I
think that doesn’t make it automatically wrong, despite the large amounts of
individualism in our congregations. There are many instances in which our
response to God has to be as an individual, e.g. receiving Christ as Lord and
Savior.

Withholding testimony may also mean our failure to give God glory for what He
has done in our lives. It can also mean keeping back encouragement and
edification from our fellow believers. Validity is not automatic. Neither is
utility and necessity. But, what vibrant Bible study or fellowship does not
incorporate some periodic sharing of testimonials?

Brother Ben’s approach to delineating what God is saying versus his own
opinion seems to be a good way of checking the validity of our empirical
understanding as well. Do you have other suggestions?

One movement among Korean churches (both here and in Korea) that is reported
to have phenomenal growth at the moment is something called Mark’s Upper Room
ministry. Any CACers heard of it? Heard any information on them? They’ve
approached our Chinese church with a “vision” and want to mobilize us. We’re
hesitant and still evaluating. Nonetheless, their growth is largely
explained by an integration of Biblical understanding, experiencing God, and
enjoying “positively” answered prayers. The last two elements obviously
takes a believer out of the realm of mere intellectual acknowledgement of
what the written Word proclaims.

I heartily agree with the “signature” on one of Brother Ted’s recent postings
– about blowing up, drying up, or growing up. What do you think?

Very respectfully,
Stephen Leung
Alexandria, VA

— End —

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:26:07 -0500
From: OHBRUDDER
To: G Ottoson
CC: CAC
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: the REAL ISSUE

Sorry, Bro. G,
i don’t understand; my simple skull of mush could not follow your point.

bill

G Ottoson wrote:
>
> On Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:07:02 -0700 OHBRUDDER
> writes:
> >I re-read Joe’s comments several times to confirm what I initially
> >thought… Joe [believes] we are “fools”
> >bill leong
>
> Bill, I have been thinking, what if Joe made these remarks to me. How
> could I accept it? Perhaps I could in terms of an ancient idea I read:
>
> “He who wishes to philosophize..without danger to his soul, must first
> become thoroughly foolish in Christ.”

— End —

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:09:23 -0500
From: OHBRUDDER
To: Jarrad Techico
CC: CAC , JWongCDI@aol.com
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: the REAL ISSUE

Hi j.t.,

No alibi. No excuses. My flesh probably showed. You should have read my
“real”
feelings after Joe’s remarks. I asked the Lord, how shall I defend my
daughter’s honor? I’m hurt and offended and I should not express what I
really want to say. I usually take the first thoughts I receive after I
ask
Him a question, “forgive him for he knows not what he did.” So that’s
what I wrote. In subsequent postings, I had no harsh or negative
feelings
toward Joe . . .especially after the many comforting words from many of
the CAC brothers. AND . . .my stocks were doing so well and I had just
closed
options on Applied Material for an 80% gain! I was pretty happy! Please
trust me on this, I was not deliberately harsh if that is what you
thought.

I met Joe, I think, thru Jim Ziervogel of Institute for Chinese Studies,
eons ago, when Jim visited him and I happened to tag along. Since then,
I know of Joe only by reputations . . .one of which is he is usually at
the forefront of the ABC cause. Praise God for Joe and his faithfulness!

Thank you j.t. for your input, to once more remind me He has put His
treasure into “earthen vessels” and once more I call upon His grace.

By the way, I lived 5 years in the shadows of your beautiful Oracle
buildings
in Redwood Shores . . . and nice work out facilities!

bill leong

Jarrad Techico wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> I missed most of the thread that has been going on this particular topic. (My
> fault… and I’ll try to catch up) But I happened to open your reply and must
> say I was kind of surprised at the harshness, your response seemed to portray.
> Not to disagree with what you stated because I believe in the same things,
> but I must point out that while reading this letter I couldn’t help but think
> that maybe your response seemed a little over zealous and because of that a
> certain validity is lossed… i.e., you may say that Christ is in you, but how
> is that exemplified? And more importantly does your response minister to Joe
> or other fellow brothers and help him/them bring him/them closer to God?
>
> If I seemed harsh as well, please comment. For all practical purposes it was
> really with the intent on spurring one another on toward good deeds. On the
> flip side it is also good to know there are soldiers out there for the Lord.
> 🙂
>
> Chat soon,
>
> j.t.

— End —

To: “Benjamin C Wong”
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:34:20 -0700
From: “GE Liang”
Cc: “CAC”
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Women-men in ministry

Ben,

I believe your observation about the context of Gal. 3:28 to be accurate. The three-part
treatise offered by Sze-Kar Wan in August also addressed the matter of identity WRT
this passage (somewhere in the middle of http://www.aamdomain.com/cac/archive/aug97.txt).

I suppose the question with which we keep wrestling is whether the egalitarianism
of privilege in Christ stated in this passage truly represents grounds for egalitarianism
of function in the church.

Has anyone considered Ronald Y. K. Fung’s Galatians commentary in the New International
Commentary on the NT published by Eerdmans (http://www.dovebook.com/nicnt.htm)?
(Dr. Fung is currently a resident scholar at CGST in Hong Kong, and is probably fairly
conservative.)

Ecclesiastical equality would be a fairly straigthtforward conclusion were there
not challenges from Cor. 14:33-36 and 1 Tim 2:11-15 which allude to events and relationships
in Gen. 2 (prior to the fall), and elude simple dismisal as culturally or societally-specific
prescriptions.

G.E.

The one who carves the Buddha never worships it.
– Chinese proverb

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him. Male and
female created he them.
– Genesis 1:27

Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailexcite.com

— End —

To: cac@emwave.net
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:18:13 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: the REAL ISSUE
From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)

On Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:26:07 -0500 OHBRUDDER
writes:
>Sorry, Bro. G,
>i don’t understand; my simple skull of mush could not follow your
>point. bill

Bill, I’m no ‘Oswald Chambers’ either 🙂 G

— End —

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:24:47 -0400
From: Sze-kar Wan
To: CAC
Subject: CAC_Mail: Personal Experiences as a Scholar

It never ceases to amaze me that we Asians highly value intelligence in
everything–in medicine, business, science, academic–everything, that
is, except our Christian faith. When it comes to our faith, the less we
think the more spiritual we are. Something does not compute.

Dear Bill:

In view of my personal experiences as a result of pursuing
scholarship–being treated as a pariah at best and a “false brother” at
worst–dear Bill, your uncompromising distinction between “personal
experiences” and “scholarly, intellectual, didactic [way of knowing
God]” pains me so. Looking back to the last decade and a half, I still
wonder what I have done wrong to deserve being forced out of my home
church, ridiculed by name in front of 150 strangers, disinvited as
conference speaker at last minute–of being a persona non grata among
dear brothers and sisters–except for wanting to be absolutely faithful
to the gospel with unswerving intellectual honesty. (Though I wouldn’t
excuse myself for a good dosage of tactlessness some, not I, prefer to
call “youthful enthusiasm.”) It would be in appropriate to tell long
tales of tears, heartaches, despairing hours of prayers, broken
relationships, fears, loneliness, self-doubts, discouragement. But
these personal experiences of walking with God in dogged persistence
deeply inform who I am as a scholar.

Dear Bill, I know you didn’t mean it this way, but your remark cuts like
a hot jab to my soul.

Those of us interested in scholarship should have the freedom to choose
it without having to apologize constantly for it. We have a calling
from God to which we must be faithful. We have spiritual experiences
that work hand in hand with our commitment to clear thinking.
Happy–no, ecstatic (in original sense of word)–were the times, few as
they unfortunately were, when my scholarship and spirituality
converged. But often they exist side by side reinforcing, engendering,
challenging, critiquing, nourishing each other. We pray, we experience,
we worship, we laugh, we get silly, we cry, we tell bad jokes, we
preach, we listen, we ask for forgiveness, we get angry, we grow, we
fail, we complain, we reconcile, we delight in fellowship, we despise
loneliness, we love, we marry. We just happen to be called to serve God
using scholarly tools, just as my dear minister brothers and sisters use
their pastoral tools to serve their churches. Please don’t make us
justify our calls, please grant us the same trust you grant anyone
called to the ministry, and please give us the same spiritual room to
grow as you would any mortal struggling to live in Christ’s mercy.

Truth is, I was very moved by your testimony of your daughter Michelle.
Whether Joe’s comments are cynical, I am in no position to judge. But I
for one do not think it’s possible to distinguish between
experience-based and principle-based decisions. The supposed difference
between the so-called “inductive” and “deductive” thinking approaches
zero in practice. For not even mathematicians ever think from the top
down without some examples, and no experience is devoid of a higher
level of abstraction. I happen to think that if we had more anecdotes
(if you don’t like them) or empirical cases (if you like them) of
women’s experience like your Michelle’s, they might force us to look at
Scripture with a fresh eye. Is there any doubt that as a result of the
19th-century emancipation, we now look at biblical passages on slavery
with a new understanding? Experience does inform scholarship.

I really don’t think our current discussion useless simply bc we “bear
forth little action.” This is precisely the argument my non-Christian
Chinese friends use on me, bc they think ministers and Christian workers
are idealistic and impractical: they talk a good game every Sunday but
are otherwise unproductive. They make no contribution to society,
improves nobody’s life, and makes no money to boot. I of course
disagree. Living a life committed to the gospel is action enough.
Understanding God and his will for the church and the world is not
problem-solving; being a Christian is not like being an engineer. The
Old Testament talks about taking delight in the torah and about studying
God’s word for His (not our) pleasure. These ideas are operative still
in Orthodox Judaism. We by contrast seem to want to accomplish so much,
never learning to delight in understanding except for some utilitarian
purpose, never relaxed enough to be playful with God’s creativity for
fear of misappropriation.

Respectfully,
Sze-kar

— End —

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:45:02 -0400
From: Sze-kar Wan
To: CAC
Subject: Re: Fwd: CAC_Mail: 20 cents, issues, and the experiential

Dear Stephen:

I can’t claim expertise in this matter–not when one of my colleagues is
a recognized authority on Pentacostalism, both as a scholar and as a
practitioner. Whatever we experience God and his work through the
Spriit on earth must somehow square with the authority of the received
tradition. I like your complementarial view of experience, tho the
devil is in the detail: what “somehow” means is the real crux.

I fear I can’t answer your call, Stephen, not tonight anyway.

Sze-kar

— End —

From: “Peter Y. Woo”
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: Women’s ministry.
To: cac@emwave.net
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:01:22 -0700 (PDT)

Hello,
As an OBC coming to US since 1963, may I share some of my
view on women in ministry.
(1) “Women is a weaker vessel”(I Pet. 3:7) does not mean she is more
prone to doctrinal errors. Hence the argument that they must submit to
men in the churches because they are more prone to wrong interpretation
of the Word, is moot.
(2) “Christ is head of the church, just as a man is the head
of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.” Does it mean a husband is the
head of the wife in a family? Yes. Does it mean that all women in a
church must submit to all the men? Of course not. The Bible verse speaks
of “man” and “woman” in singular. It talks of husband and wife relationship,
not the relationship of all men to all women. Should the husband-wife
model be a model for men-women relationship at church?
There is no such teaching from the Word. I have two arguments
against it:
(a) What about a spiritually mature woman and her young 19 year
old son both at the same church? Should the mother be forbidden to
teach a Sunday School class for college students where her son is?
Should she submit herself to her son in matters of ministry just because
he is a “grown up” man? Amazingly not a few churchmen, Chinese and American,
insists on exactly such conclusions from their reading of such Bible
verses as I Cor.11:3 and I Cor.14:34. They conveniently ignore I Pet.5:5,
“Those of you who are younger should submit to those that are older.”
If this is not the “corban” of Phariseeism, what else is? I think both
OBC and ABCs should feel repelled at such teachings that are against
traditional cultural values of respect for those with white hairs. Respect
implies submission and deference. Too bad!
(b) God does not seem to mind women preaching, praying,
leading, in churches in China, where often women are more than 70 percent
of the congregations. If God is blessing their leadership with
obvious power of the Spirit, with miracles and martyrdom, why do
some still regard as unclean that which God has sanctified? Show me
a church that God is withholding His blessing because they allowed
women to lead, preach, and shepherd, and I can show you 100 more where
God blessed because they do. If God is moving in that direction, let
us re-examine and revise our hermeneutics and confess the blindness
that have made us the Pharisees and Judaisers of today, hindering
the Spirit’s showers of blessing and revival.
I think headship means leadership that does not demand
quiet absolute submission. Look at the relationship between God
and Christ. Christ honored God. The church should honor Christ.
A wife should honor her husband. There is no teaching that women
in a church congregation must honor the men in that church.
(3) The severe rebuke by Paul in I Cor. 14:36 is primarily
targetted to the men of the church, not the women, because the word
“only” is masculine, not feminine. This proves that I Cor. 14:34,35
are not Paul’s opinion, but Paul’s quote of the opinions of the men
of Corinth. “They must, as the Law says, be in submission.” You search
the Old Testament, and there is no such teaching. So this is not
Paul’s teaching. It is his quote of the wrong teaching at church.
(4) Paul never taught that sin enters the world through Eve.
Never, never. He rather taught that sin came through one man, and that
is Adam. God in Gen. 3 had more severe curse on Adam than on Eve.
Why? because he committed a greater sin. What is his greater sin?
Whatever it is, we have to discover it.
(5) I Tim 2 Paul did say “I do not allow a woman to teach and
preach to a man … For Adam was first formed, then Eve…” Does Eve
being formed later than Adam means Eve must obey Adam? No. Otherwise
Adam should obey cows because God created cows before
creating Adam. I think Paul wants women be quiet, give the men a chance
to learn first, because men are statistically less verbose and slower at
speech. Paul is saying,”Women, give the brothers a chance to learn,
think, before you open up for discussions.”
He said “I do not allow”. It definitely means he does not feel
comfortable to say “God does not allow…” It is a tentative wise
arrangement Paul set up for the churches of his time, where women have
much less education and other opportunities than men. Paul did not
disallow women from teaching men. He did not allow a wife to teach
and preach at her husband. How do I know this? From context. He
quoted Adam and Eve, the first husband and wife.

Sincerely,
Peter Y. Woo,
a simple man teaching
Math at Biola Univ.

— End —

From: “DJ Chuang”
To: cac@emwave.net
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:03:28 -0500
Subject: CAC_Mail: Re: Women’s ministry

——- Forwarded Message Follows ——-
From: Fenggang Yang
To: “Peter Y. Woo” , cac@emwave.net

reading this by Peter Woo,

> (a) What about a spiritually mature woman and her young 19 year
>old son both at the same church? Should the mother be forbidden to
>teach a Sunday School class for college students where her son is?
>Should she submit herself to her son in matters of ministry just because
>he is a “grown up” man? Amazingly not a few churchmen, Chinese and
American,
>insists on exactly such conclusions from their reading of such Bible
>verses as I Cor.11:3 and I Cor.14:34. They conveniently ignore I Pet.5:5,
>”Those of you who are younger should submit to those that are older.”
>If this is not the “corban” of Phariseeism, what else is? I think both
>OBC and ABCs should feel repelled at such teachings that are against
>traditional cultural values of respect for those with white hairs. Respect
>implies submission and deference. Too bad!

reminds me of this ethical principle of Confucianism installed by a
Confucian official in the Han Dynasty:

“A woman should submit to her father at home, to her husband in a
marriage, and to her son when widowed.” This principle is called
“three submissions.”

Today, more than ever, I’m startled by the radical “compatibility”
between conservative Christianity and Confucianism.

Fenggang
—————————————————————
Fenggang Yang, Ph.D. fyang@uh.edu
Department of Sociology http://www.uh.edu/~fyang
University of Houston 713-743-3943 (FAX)
Houston, TX 77204-3474 713-743-3973 (phone)

— End —

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:48:23 -0500
From: OHBRUDDER
To: CAC
Subject: CAC_Mail: WOMEN & MINISTRY

Hi Grace May,

I’ve dodged the woman in ministry issue “bullet” nearly all our
ministry
life. Never faced it because it never came up or it was never an issue.
But there was this incident that my wife and I found funny . . . well,
it was funnier to me than her.

We use to have 7am prayer meetings on Saturday mornings at EFC in LA.
A street person (carried a backpack, had stories of fresh veggie in
the market’s trash bin, etc.) attended several . . .he just appeared
one day, heard us from the street and walked in and sat. One time after
after a meeting, he spoke to Mary, Bill’s wife, told her she should
not teach nor pray aloud (lead prayer) and that she was not a good
wife because my shoes (Bill’s shoes) was NOT shined!

Funny?

bill leong

— End —

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:05:04 -0700
From: Ken Fong
Organization: Evergreen Baptist Church
To: “Peter Y. Woo”
CC: cac@emwave.net
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: Re: Women’s ministry.

thanks for sharing your insights with us, Peter. I truly gained much
from reading them. I’m with you. As one of my favorite theologians and
former professors is found of saying, “The WORK of God sometimes must
interpret the WORD of God.” The Pharisees were quick to point to the
Word of God when criticizing Jesus, but Jesus would often point to what
had just occurred (WORK of God) and ask them “Is this the work of
Beelzebub or a sign that the kingdom of God has come in me?” Yes, we’re
not Jesus. But if what is happening appears to be the fruit of the
kingdom, we must rethink our view of a passage of Scripture if our
interpretation causes us to mislabel ‘good fruit’ as bad. This is how
the Lord changed my opinion of charismatic tongue-speaking. In theory
it was easy for me to point to Scripture and say that that gift no
longer exists, but when confronted with unmistakable brethren who had
that gift, I felt compelled to alter my theology rather than write off
these brethren as not truly Christian bc their power source wasn’t the
Spirit.

ken fong

— End —

To: Cac@emwave.net
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:59:15 -0600
Subject: Re: CAC_Mail: NY Times article on Affirm. Action
From: gdot@juno.com (G Ottoson)

On Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:09:39 -0400 (EDT) TSTseng@aol.com writes:
>Bro. G:
>
> The fact that the Weyerhauser family is still so supportive of Fuller,
despite the >seminary’s courageous stand on some “controversial” issues,
offers some hope, >don’t you think?

Dear Tim:

Not really, not yet.

It kinda depends on what (seminary) people stand for or against…e.g.
IMO, Whether Scripture is infallible or innerent (the Fuller do or die
‘controversy’ I recall) is irrelevant esp if nobody openly lives by it.

For example, throwing another (Weyerhauser) log on the CAC fire, The NT
makes it clear that the Church is the bride of Christ. What does this
mean?

Is it fair to say that we (comprised of males and females who are
‘neither male nor female’), are the woman who is engaged to, if not
married to Jesus Christ?

To think, then, that she, co-habiting corporate seminaries while
educating her own leaders, is entangled in an economic affair with an
American corporation?

Could she say (to Jesus eventually) It was for money? For comfort? I was
lonely? The seminary was your idea? They were your trees?

What could he say?

Right now I ‘hope’ we never have to here it, my Brother.

G

— End —

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